Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[John Newman]

Apologies (again)
Night shift brain this week.

Sea Transport was the company I was thinking of....

Mate, don’t have to apologise, we all make mistakes.

If you haven’t done so already, it’s probably worth reading the various PDF documents from the 2020 Defence Strategic Update that was released mid last year:

2020 Defence Strategic Update | About | Department of Defence

The Defence Strategic Update sets out the challenges in Australia’s strategic environment and their implications for Defence planning. The 2020 Force Structure Plan details the Government’s intentions for new and adjusted Australian Defence Force capability investments to implement the new...

www1.defence.gov.au

Sometimes there are similar projects, or different phases of projects.

Watercraft projects include LCM-8, LARC-V, LCH replacement (was JP2048 Ph5, under Navy, appears to be listed under Army now), and there is also a project for the eventual replacement of Navy LCM-1E.

Anyway, have a read and get yourself up to speed.

Cheers,

 

[Takao]

LCH replacement (was JP2048 Ph5, under Navy, appears to be listed under Army now),

That's an interesting shift - and one I'm not a fan of. I'd much rather give the LCHs to CPO/SBLT than Army, I can't see how that would do anything but be a positive when moving onto the OPVs and larger ships. Also means that RACT doesn't have to learn all the, frankly, Navy 'stuff' about diving a boat on the ocean (which the LCHs have to do)

 

[John Newman]

That's an interesting shift - and one I'm not a fan of. I'd much rather give the LCHs to CPO/SBLT than Army, I can't see how that would do anything but be a positive when moving onto the OPVs and larger ships. Also means that RACT doesn't have to learn all the, frankly, Navy 'stuff' about diving a boat on the ocean (which the LCHs have to do)

Looks like things are going full circle.

If I remember correctly the LCH fleet was originally to be under Army control, but soon after construction started they were transferred to Navy control in the early 1970s.

Replacements for LARC-V, LCM-8, the new riverine patrol craft capability and the larger LCH replacements.

Bit of empire building maybe?

 

[Redlands18]

Mate, don’t have to apologise, we all make mistakes.

If you haven’t done so already, it’s probably worth reading the various PDF documents from the 2020 Defence Strategic Update that was released mid last year:

2020 Defence Strategic Update | About | Department of Defence

The Defence Strategic Update sets out the challenges in Australia’s strategic environment and their implications for Defence planning. The 2020 Force Structure Plan details the Government’s intentions for new and adjusted Australian Defence Force capability investments to implement the new...

www1.defence.gov.au

Sometimes there are similar projects, or different phases of projects.

Watercraft projects include LCM-8, LARC-V, LCH replacement (was JP2048 Ph5, under Navy, appears to be listed under Army now), and there is also a project for the eventual replacement of Navy LCM-1E.

Anyway, have a read and get yourself up to speed.

Cheers,

Combat Boat 90 HSM

Combat Boat 90 HSM is a new military assault boat being offered by Dockstavarvet for the Amphibious Corps, a coastal defence arm of the Swedish Navy.

www.naval-technology.com

There is also the Armies Riverine patrol boat project,

 

[Raven22]

Bit of empire building maybe?

The RAN have had a decade or so to replace the LCHs, and haven’t done so. You can hardly blame the army for wanting to fill the capability gap.

 

[spoz]

The capability acquisition decision is a joint one, not for Army or Navy to make independently. While the LCH replacement has been around for a while, it didn’t make it high enough in the ADF priority list to get funded. You can argue about whether that was right or not. Ultimately it is CDF and Government who set that priority; and it’s been a long time since there was a Navy CDF.

Without wanting to offend a number of friends who are ex water transport, there were good reasons for transferring the LCHs to Navy, including training and operational planning. Those would still seem to be valid; and I don’t remember any complaints from Army about lack of service from the LCHs, unlike the situation with RAAF and helos in the 80s.

 

[Raven22]

Well, sure, but it’s hardly empire building by the army

 

[Bob53]

Interesting article here on the CH53 heavy lift chopper and some comparisons with the Chinook. Interested in what members think about Australia’s current lift capability and do we have enough capacity. I don’t see anyway another type would be introduced but compared to other western forces we don’t seem to have significant numbers of CH47. I think we operate about 12 if memory serves correctly. An Update on the CH-53K: January 2021 | Defense.info

 

[ngatimozart]

Interesting article here on the CH53 heavy lift chopper and some comparisons with the Chinook. Interested in what members think about Australia’s current lift capability and do we have enough capacity. I don’t see anyway another type would be introduced but compared to other western forces we don’t seem to have significant numbers of CH47. I think we operate about 12 if memory serves correctly. An Update on the CH-53K: January 2021 | Defense.info

Have read that, but the sticker and LCC costs are somewhat eye-watering. The pollies and bean counters would go into conniptions if was suggested to them and put undue strain on the health system. A MH-47G Chinook II variant is being built for the US Army SOF which has the engines off the CH-53K and conformal tanks, with better lift and performance capabilities. However the Army isn't intending to introduce the variant across its wider fleet because of its FVL program.

 

[John Fedup]

Interesting article here on the CH53 heavy lift chopper and some comparisons with the Chinook. Interested in what members think about Australia’s current lift capability and do we have enough capacity. I don’t see anyway another type would be introduced but compared to other western forces we don’t seem to have significant numbers of CH47. I think we operate about 12 if memory serves correctly. An Update on the CH-53K: January 2021 | Defense.info

Canada only has slightly more, 15 CH-147Fs. The RCAF also has 14 medium lift CH-149s and at some point there will be 28 CH-148 Cyclones.

 

[ngatimozart]

Canada only has slightly more, 15 CH-147Fs. The RCAF also has 14 medium lift CH-149s and at some point there will be 28 CH-148 Cyclones.

But aren't the Cyclones for the RCN? What does Canada use for carting grunts to and from the battlefield?

 

[John Fedup]

But aren't the Cyclones for the RCN? What does Canada use for carting grunts to and from the battlefield?

Mainly the CH-147s for troop transport along with small utility helicopters. If additional medium lift is needed, I imagine Cyclones would be tasked much the same way the UK’s Merlins were in Afghanistan. The Cormorants probably not as there isn’t enough of them to spare from their SAR role.

 

[Bob53]

Have read that, but the sticker and LCC costs are somewhat eye-watering. The pollies and bean counters would go into conniptions if was suggested to them and put undue strain on the health system. A MH-47G Chinook II variant is being built for the US Army SOF which has the engines off the CH-53K and conformal tanks, with better lift and performance capabilities. However the Army isn't intending to introduce the variant across its wider fleet because of its FVL program.

Yes was not suggesting that Au purchase the CH53. in the example of Canada they look to have around 60 medium lift choppers but I note they don’t seem to have any NH90 or Black Hawk equivalent .....seemingly going for a fleet of larger choppers.

 

[Raven22]

Yes was not suggesting that Au purchase the CH53. in the example of Canada they look to have around 60 medium lift choppers but I note they don’t seem to have any NH90 or Black Hawk equivalent .....seemingly going for a fleet of larger choppers.

Neither the Canadian CH-148s nor the CH-149s are ‘medium lift’ choppers. The CH-149s are dedicated SAR birds, while the CH-148 are dedicated ship borne maritime/ASW bird. Neither would be tasked to support the Canadian Army. The only helicopter besides the Chinook that would support the land force is the CH-146 Griffon, a militarised twin Huey that is half the size of a Blackhawk/NH90. The Canadians certainly haven’t gone for a fleet of larger helicopters, but precisely the opposite - a large fleet of small helicopters, with a small fleet of chinooks supporting.

 

[John Fedup]

Neither the Canadian CH-148s nor the CH-149s are ‘medium lift’ choppers. The CH-149s are dedicated SAR birds, while the CH-148 are dedicated ship borne maritime/ASW bird. Neither would be tasked to support the Canadian Army. The only helicopter besides the Chinook that would support the land force is the CH-146 Griffon, a militarised twin Huey that is half the size of a Blackhawk/NH90. The Canadians certainly haven’t gone for a fleet of larger helicopters, but precisely the opposite - a large fleet of small helicopters, with a small fleet of chinooks supporting.

True, both medium RCAF helicopters are dedicated to specific missions and would only be supporting the army in an extreme emergency. Canada had no decent helicopter lift capability when the Afghanistan mission was undertaken. Serious roadside incidents forced the Government to do an an emergency lease from the US for 4 C-47Ds which were flogged to death. The CH-147 order was completed after the Afghanistan mission. I believe the UK Merlins were pressed for duty in Afghanistan and Merlins’s 3 engines made for good hot, dry, and high performance. I’m sure the the British army was grateful to the RN.

 

[Raven22]

I believe the UK Merlins were pressed for duty in Afghanistan and Merlins’s 3 engines made for good hot, dry, and high performance. I’m sure the the British army was grateful to the RN.

The Merlins the UK employed in Afghanistan were RAF birds designed from the outset for air mobility tasks. They were also used in Iraq. While initially they weren’t particularly well suited to the air assault mission, it was not a case of maritime helicopters being repurposed into combat helicopters for use on land. In fact it was the opposite - the RAF Merlins were eventually transferred to the RN to replace the Sea Kings supporting the Royal Marines.

 

[John Fedup]

I assume the RN got rid of their SeaKings well before the RCN. Not sure when the last was retired here but likely within the last 3-5 years.

 

[t68]

A Army BlackHawk has a incident while conducting shipborne ex in Sydney landing in Watson’s Bay

 

[ngatimozart]

Yep I saw that last night. Looks like it had a light caress with one of the masts of the fittings of the cruise ship. That would have made the pilots sphincter muscles tighten considerably. Considering the damage to the blades, that's a really nice piece of flying to get it down in one piece, saving everyone on board. Hopefully an award for the pilot.

 

[spoz]

Hmm, rather think there were will probably be a BoI in his (or her) immediate future - there would have not been a need to recover from an emergency situation if it had not be created in the first place.