Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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alexsa

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Staff member
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Ce
The example I recall is the RN Type 42 Batch 3, had a substantial increase in length over the Batch 1 and 2 ships, that supposedly resulted in an increase in speed and reduced fuel burn without changing the propulsion plant. I believe the Batch 2 and 3 Type 22s had similar, but less impressive improvements in performance over the Batch 1 ships, the later Batch 3 Type 22s with the improved Spey / Tyne COGAG propulsion were meant to have been particularly impressive.

This may however be due to original, more balanced designs being reduced to a minimum, far from ideal, length to cut costs. Returning to something approaching the original length on the Type 42 Batch 3 just returned the hull to the originally intended length to beam ratio.

An increase in length, beam, or both, means you can have more mass in the hull structure, without increasing draft or resorting to the use of ballast, counteracting some weight increases topside. Increased hull volume also means greater freedom to arrange some heavy systems lower down in the ships structure, potentially improved rafting arrangement for equipment could also be worked in, as well as improved access for maintenance.
Certainly the batch 3 T42 is a very good example. I don't really have any abiding concerns about an increase in length if required as it should not (done properly) change the hull dynamics or noise rafting. It may actually reduce the potential for flow noise (again speculation as I don't have detailed knowledge of the hull modelling). Beam may be more problematic (once again ... jsut assumption) noting the T26 is pretty beamy (but marginally less than the T45 but quite a bit wider than Hobart class DDG).

If an increase in length is required then it does have some benefit in vessel growth margin as discussed earlier.
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The Type 26 has 4 meters more beam than the Spruance / Ticonderogas and .8 of a meter over the Burke. This would suggest there is some capacity to increase length without messing with stability too much. Just so long as the result is tank tested and the mistake made with the Collins is not repeated (the sonar was raised, changing flows over the hull but this wasn't tested).
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Type 26 has 4 meters more beam than the Spruance / Ticonderogas and .8 of a meter over the Burke. This would suggest there is some capacity to increase length without messing with stability too much. Just so long as the result is tank tested and the mistake made with the Collins is not repeated (the sonar was raised, changing flows over the hull but this wasn't tested).
Agree entirely. Still waiting for another source to discuss this issue other than the AFR. Interesting that it has not engendered comment from other sources. BAE certainly don’t agree

 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Agree entirely. Still waiting for another source to discuss this issue other than the AFR. Interesting that it has not engendered comment from other sources. BAE certainly don’t agree

There was a bloke from Fincantieri pushing the merits of the FREMM on LinkedIn in response to the AFR story, that it was an existing, in-service design, met all the stated RAN requirements etc. rather than a "paper ship" like the Type26. It got me wondering if the Industry source was a Fincantieri person, emboldened by the recent success in the US, trying for a US style rebid.
 

DDG38

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Video of Sydney's commissioning ceremony at sea.

Such a great idea, I hope they do this as the normal ceremony from now on, seems much more fitting to commission a warship at sea. Also a good excuse to get a few MFUs together for the day. :)
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There was a bloke from Fincantieri pushing the merits of the FREMM on LinkedIn in response to the AFR story, that it was an existing, in-service design, met all the stated RAN requirements etc. rather than a "paper ship" like the Type26. It got me wondering if the Industry source was a Fincantieri person, emboldened by the recent success in the US, trying for a US style rebid.
And they have a bit of a history of trying to circumvent the system, don’t they. It worked so well for them in Canada.
 

BPFP

Member
The big defence announcement today looks to be a fairly fundamental re-set of defence posture. From a RAN perspective, Greg Sheridan is suggesting "more support ships to help our LHDs (landing helicopter dock or amphibious assault ships)" as well as other naval veseels and greater combat lethality for the OPVs. Also more Growlers for the air force. Here is the link, but it is behind a paywall:

 

Meriv90

Active Member
Thats stereotyped and racist,

They used to say that the Canadian FWSAR was rigged for the C27J to win... We saw how airbus was allowed to overbid, fly a slower plane in the artic and without APU.
Again the "proven design" was changed later in the CSC. But this is the RAN topic and I would end up OT if we started to talk about Canadian procurement ( I leave you the adjective choice to describe its track record)

Lucky for us the USN understands what "proven design" trully means and is paying for the ship design in place of what was going to happen in CSC (ship design analysis by a competitor without any garantees).

IMHO (and I say again IMHO) it would be more constructive seeing how SEA1000 and the Hunter class are progressing to compare other procurement models considering the amount of steel we put in the water lately in time and in budget.

P.s. Im not the LinkedIn guy, you can check my old post history here, plus after all I recognize that the Type26 is superior, it is 10 years younger, the only plus side on the FREMM is the proven side. If timing, as a consequence of chinese demographics wasn't a factor, being the USN I would have made the same choice as you.

@Meriv90

I don't think there was racist intent. Please note such terms are inflamatory and should not be tossed about without a solid case to support the accusation. Certainly the comment criticises how the bid for the Canadian CSC programmed was managed. This has been discussed at length in other threads but I suggest we all play nice.

Alexsa
 
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The two new documents "2020 Defence Strategic Update" and "2020 Force Structure Plan" are now available online:

three new strategic objectives:
  • to shape Australia’s strategic environment;
  • to deter actions against Australia’s interests; and
  • to respond with credible military force, when required.
This seems to be a big positional shift for us. (sorry for the short post mods - I felt these docs should be highlighted and inform our future discussions)
 
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Navy highlights for new items/confirmations:
  • 2x multi-role sea-lift and replenishment ships
  • Up to to 8 new vessels for mine-countermeasure & hydrographic survey (potentially based on the Arafura design)
  • Pacific SPT Vessel ($180-280m)
  • Replacement for ADV Ocean Protector
  • Integrated Undersea Surveillance System (crewed & uncrewed)
  • Large Army Landing Craft
A few of our favourite discussion points here confirmed. It will be interesting to see the Large Army Landing Craft details after much hand wringing over the lack of LCH replacements.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Navy highlights for new items/confirmations:
  • 2x multi-role sea-lift and replenishment ships
  • Up to to 8 new vessels for mine-countermeasure & hydrographic survey (potentially based on the Arafura design)
  • Pacific SPT Vessel ($180-280m)
  • Replacement for ADV Ocean Protector
  • Integrated Undersea Surveillance System (crewed & uncrewed)
  • Large Army Landing Craft
A few of our favourite discussion points here confirmed. It will be interesting to see the Large Army Landing Craft details after much hand wringing over the lack of LCH replacements.
... and the multi-role sea-lift and replenishment ships will be locally built. I wonder if this could be the beginning of a ship-building program that could eventually see Australia building all of its ships domestically.

Certainly this is all good news for the local shipbuilding industry with around 11 new ships and a range of landing craft planned over the next decade or so.
 
... and the multi-role sea-lift and replenishment ships will be locally built. I wonder if this could be the beginning of a ship-building program that could eventually see Australia building all of its ships domestically.

Certainly this is all good news for the local shipbuilding industry with around 11 new ships and a range of landing craft planned over the next decade or so.
Ah here's the bit I was looking for (from the Force Structure document) for where they were going to build the sea-lift ships. I was wondering if they were going to build to max ship-lift size, or upgrade ship lifts. (this doesn't have to be for the sea-lift ships though specifically - just my estimation based on the timelines provided)
An additional docking facility to complement the Captain Cook
graving dock to support the anticipated build and sustainment of
new and larger vessels;
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
In light of the above, one wonders if the previously discussed growth in VLS cells (48+?) aboard the Hunters might be on the cards in the first batch.

I can certainly see an argument for it in that the Chinese ASBM and hypersonic ASM (DF17?) threat are likely to make SM6 a must-have rather than a luxury item going forward. ESSM + SM2 is all well and good for ASCMs but the threat environment in our region appears to be rapidly moving beyond that.
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
So a fair bit to take in and digest with today's announcements and release, some good news across all services and Defence as a whole, some of the more significant points, IMHO, from the RAN perspective:

4.15 To further expand the ADF’s ability to support an increased presence in
the region, Government’s plans include:
• Design, development and acquisition of two Australian-built
multi-role sealift and replenishment vessels to replace HMAS
Choules. This will greatly extend Navy’s ability to project and sustain
the joint force;
• Life extension of Australian Defence Vessel Ocean Protector and the
acquisition of a replacement vessel with an ice-rated hull capable
of operating in the Southern Ocean, as well as the acquisition
of another vessel built in Australia to support the Australian
Government’s Pacific Step-up initiatives; and
• The acquisition of a support and salvage vessel to enable the
recovery and at-sea repair of large warships.

Interesting move with the JSS, there is only one real design in the water as such with the KD, but we are stipulating Australian designed and built, so KD is not a real option as far as I am concerned, also think the KD is a bit of overkill. If we take our minds back 12 months to Pacific 2019 and the earlier launch of the Navantia Naval Design and Engineering Centre.



There was a lot of chatter early in the piece on why Navantia had put so much effort into this and their assertion that there would be a requirement from the Australian Government in 2020 for such a design, now not saying they will be an auto select, there will have to be an RFI to look at what else is out there, so betting Navantia & Damen will not doubt put in for this, BMT ?, no doubt among other who may have designs on the books, will be interesting to watch.

The other question off the back of this is, where do we build them ? This is a fantastic step to moving to building all of our shipping requirements in Australia, with the announcement of another dock to compliment CCGD in Sydney, where do they build the second ? I just can't see Adelaide being the option, so WA would be the obvious option, but they are also pretty busy, is the real option to re-purpose Willamstown in Melbourne which I believe is currently owned by BAE ?

The update to the Naval Shipbuilding Plan will enlighten us on this, but with the current plans for the start and subsequent transfer of the OPV's to WA, the Hunters and Attacks, Adelaide I think is pretty much maxed out, along with the strategic need to have separation of building and maintenance capability. Bringing this capability online to have the capability to build the biggest ships needed by the RAN, there is enough work there for a continuous shipbuilding plan for large vessels, 2 x JSS, Pacific support ship, follow on for the LHD's, replacement AOR's, ADV Ocean Protector, Support & Salvage ship, possible replacement for Nuyina etc, Willamstown has the space and potential, again just my thoughts.

That last one is an interesting one, Support & Salvage ship ? So are we talking a Stalwart style ship here ? this will be one to watch and see how it develops and what the actual identified requirements will be ? Happy to be corrected, but to my knowledge there is no current class like this at the moment ? So a little perplexed with what this requirement is and how it has come about, time will tell I guess.

Cheers
 
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OldTex

Well-Known Member
So a fair bit to take in and digest with today's announcements and release, some good news across all services and Defence as a whole, some of the more significant points, IMHO, from the RAN perspective:

4.15 To further expand the ADF’s ability to support an increased presence in
the region, Government’s plans include:
• Design, development and acquisition of two Australian-built
multi-role sealift and replenishment vessels to replace HMAS
Choules. This will greatly extend Navy’s ability to project and sustain
the joint force;
• Life extension of Australian Defence Vessel Ocean Protector and the
acquisition of a replacement vessel with an ice-rated hull capable
of operating in the Southern Ocean, as well as the acquisition
of another vessel built in Australia to support the Australian
Government’s Pacific Step-up initiatives; and
• The acquisition of a support and salvage vessel to enable the
recovery and at-sea repair of large warships.

Interesting move with the JSS, there is only one real design in the water as such with the KD, but we are stipulating Australian designed and built, so KD is not a real option as far as I am concerned, also think the KD is a bit of overkill. If we take our minds back 12 months to Pacific 2019 and the earlier launch of the Navantia Naval Design and Engineering Centre.



There was a lot of chatter early in the piece on why Navantia had put so much effort into this and their assertion that there would be a requirement from the Australian Government in 2020 for such a design, now not saying they will be an auto select, there will have to be an RFI to look at what else is out there, so betting Navantia & Damen will not doubt put in for this, BMT ?, no doubt among other who may have designs on the books, will be interesting to watch.

The other question off the back of this is, where do we build them ? This is a fantastic step to moving to building all of our shipping requirements in Australia, with the announcement of another dock to compliment CCGD in Sydney, where do they build the second ? I just can't see Adelaide being the option, so WA would be the obvious option, but they are also pretty busy, is the real option to re-purpose Willamstown in Melbourne which I believe is currently owned by BAE ?

The update to the Naval Shipbuilding Plan will enlighten us on this, but with the current plans for the start and subsequent transfer of the OPV's to WA, the Hunters and Attacks, Adelaide I think is pretty much maxed out, along with the strategic need to have separation of building and maintenance capability. Bringing this capability online to have the capability to build the biggest ships needed by the RAN, there is enough work there for a continuous shipbuilding plan for large vessels, 2 x JSS, Pacific support ship, follow on for the LHD's, replacement AOR's, ADV Ocean Protector, Support & Salvage ship, possible replacement for Nuyina etc, Willamstown has the space and potential, again just my thoughts.

That last one is an interesting one, Support & Salvage ship ? So are we talking a Stalwart style ship here ? this will be one to watch and see how it develops and what the actual identified requirements will be ? Happy to be corrected, but to my knowledge there is no current class like this at the moment ? So a little perplexed with what this requirement is and how it has come about, time will tell I guess.

Cheers
While Williamstown would be the first site that would come to mind for reinvigorating domestic shipbuilding there would be other possibilities as well. Perhaps Civmec's facility in Newcastle might be in the picture for the construction of some of these support ships.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
So a fair bit to take in and digest with today's announcements and release, some good news across all services and Defence as a whole, some of the more significant points, IMHO, from the RAN perspective:

4.15 To further expand the ADF’s ability to support an increased presence in
the region, Government’s plans include:
• Design, development and acquisition of two Australian-built
multi-role sealift and replenishment vessels to replace HMAS
Choules. This will greatly extend Navy’s ability to project and sustain
the joint force;
• Life extension of Australian Defence Vessel Ocean Protector and the
acquisition of a replacement vessel with an ice-rated hull capable
of operating in the Southern Ocean, as well as the acquisition
of another vessel built in Australia to support the Australian
Government’s Pacific Step-up initiatives; and
• The acquisition of a support and salvage vessel to enable the
recovery and at-sea repair of large warships.

Interesting move with the JSS, there is only one real design in the water as such with the KD, but we are stipulating Australian designed and built, so KD is not a real option as far as I am concerned, also think the KD is a bit of overkill. If we take our minds back 12 months to Pacific 2019 and the earlier launch of the Navantia Naval Design and Engineering Centre.



There was a lot of chatter early in the piece on why Navantia had put so much effort into this and their assertion that there would be a requirement from the Australian Government in 2020 for such a design, now not saying they will be an auto select, there will have to be an RFI to look at what else is out there, so betting Navantia & Damen will not doubt put in for this, BMT ?, no doubt among other who may have designs on the books, will be interesting to watch.

The other question off the back of this is, where do we build them ? This is a fantastic step to moving to building all of our shipping requirements in Australia, with the announcement of another dock to compliment CCGD in Sydney, where do they build the second ? I just can't see Adelaide being the option, so WA would be the obvious option, but they are also pretty busy, is the real option to re-purpose Willamstown in Melbourne which I believe is currently owned by BAE ?

The update to the Naval Shipbuilding Plan will enlighten us on this, but with the current plans for the start and subsequent transfer of the OPV's to WA, the Hunters and Attacks, Adelaide I think is pretty much maxed out, along with the strategic need to have separation of building and maintenance capability. Bringing this capability online to have the capability to build the biggest ships needed by the RAN, there is enough work there for a continuous shipbuilding plan for large vessels, 2 x JSS, Pacific support ship, follow on for the LHD's, replacement AOR's, ADV Ocean Protector, Support & Salvage ship, possible replacement for Nuyina etc, Willamstown has the space and potential, again just my thoughts.

That last one is an interesting one, Support & Salvage ship ? So are we talking a Stalwart style ship here ? this will be one to watch and see how it develops and what the actual identified requirements will be ? Happy to be corrected, but to my knowledge there is no current class like this at the moment ? So a little perplexed with what this requirement is and how it has come about, time will tell I guess.

Cheers
On Page 119 of the Force Structure Plan there is a note for an additional Docking facility to compliment the Captain Cook Graving Dock to support the anticipated build and sustainment of new and larger Vessels. Nothing about where it will be built but the fact is that the RAN definitely needs the ability to build bigger ships.
From what i have seen on here the max size Ship that can be built at Osborn is 160m? The Hunters are pushing that at 149m and the future DDG will probably be even bigger.
 

magicbandit7

New Member
Been digging into the potential locations to build the JSS and found this:


Another more detailed plan is in this document: https://www.jtsi.wa.gov.au/docs/def...d-use-plan-18-june-2020.pdf?sfvrsn=deef711c_2
 
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John Newman

The Bunker Group
Came across an interesting little paragraph buried on page 37 of Chapter 4, Maritime Domain:

* Expand and rationalise the support and logistics helicopter fleet consistent with the expectations for larger naval operations


The project has a budget allowance of $1b-$1.5b, and a time line from around 2024-2025 to about 2032.

If I'm reading that correctly sounds like and expansion of the medium utility fleet, currently using MRH90.

Could that mean more MRH90s or something different?

Interesting...
 
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