Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[aussienscale]

Thanks for all the discussion guys, some good info and thoughts put down. Taking a step back and looking at what info we have so far, I think my mind has been moved from Willamstown to WA, makes sense if we are to have a proper 2 fleet Navy and have the facilities on either side of the country that a dock and large vessel construction in WA makes good sense.

I can't just be a Government funded investment though, there has to be private money and a commercial case for it.

Cheers

 

[OldTex]

Realistically the only two candidates that come to mind are additional MRH90 or to change the whole utility fleet and procure MH-60S, looking at the quoted paragraph again:

* Expand and rationalise the support and logistics helicopter fleet consistent with the expectations for larger naval operations

I can potentially come up with two conclusions, more MRH90s, which keeps the overall ADF medium utility helicopter fleet consistent (Army and RAN out of the same pool of airframes).

Or ...

Procure a larger fleet of MH-60S which does have a certain degree of commonality with the MH-60R fleet operated by the RAN, that would allow for the handing back of the MRH90s to Army.

A slight variation on the first candidate might be to procure NH-90 NTH/MTTs (along the line of the German Navy Sea Lions) to provide the logistic and support helicopters afloat. This would see the helicopters with folding rotor and tailboom as well as the surface search sensors.

The more likely candidate, IMHO, would be procuring MH-60S for the fleet support role. It would not replace the need for MRH-90s on the LHDs, as these would still be required for a range of training and interoperability reasons.

 

[DDG38]

On the so called "Pacific Support Ship" that I've read a bit of discussion on here, interestingly was chatting to some still serving mates today who are WOs in the warfare community. They called it "HMAS Thought Bubble", which indicates what at least one section of the Navy thinks of it !
Had a lot of fun watching some of the media commenting on the press release - how lazy some outlets are, not even bothering to research what they're talking about and rolling out the same talking heads (can't call many of them experts). My favourite was some genius on the ABC afternoon bulletin mentioning on how the Collins already have a "first strike capability". I'd love for him to show the boat crews where the hidden VLS tubes are !

 

[ASSAIL]

HMAShips Hobart, Arunta and Stuart alongside Fort Hill Wharf, Darwin today.
You can see the problem of funnel gasses fouling the radar pergolas hasn’t improved with Arunta’s new CEAFARL 2.
Surely time to paint them black like the steamships of yore.

 

[Volkodav]

HMAShips Hobart, Arunta and Stuart alongside Fort Hill Wharf, Darwin today.
You can see the problem of funnel gasses fouling the radar pergolas hasn’t improved with Arunta’s new CEAFARL 2.
Surely time to paint them black like the steamships of yore.
View attachment 47470

I wonder if they are open to the public on the week end? Haven't been on Hobart since before she was right way up and stuck together.

 

[ngatimozart]

On the so called "Pacific Support Ship" that I've read a bit of discussion on here, interestingly was chatting to some still serving mates today who are WOs in the warfare community. They called it "HMAS Thought Bubble", which indicates what at least one section of the Navy thinks of it !
Had a lot of fun watching some of the media commenting on the press release - how lazy some outlets are, not even bothering to research what they're talking about and rolling out the same talking heads (can't call many of them experts). My favourite was some genius on the ABC afternoon bulletin mentioning on how the Collins already have a "first strike capability". I'd love for him to show the boat crews where the hidden VLS tubes are !

Suggest that you have said WOs educate the genuis who was pontificating on the ABC this arvo. Maybe in the tiller flat would be a good place as any and then get the chief stoker to show him the golden rivet.

 

[Volkodav]

On the so called "Pacific Support Ship" that I've read a bit of discussion on here, interestingly was chatting to some still serving mates today who are WOs in the warfare community. They called it "HMAS Thought Bubble", which indicates what at least one section of the Navy thinks of it !
Had a lot of fun watching some of the media commenting on the press release - how lazy some outlets are, not even bothering to research what they're talking about and rolling out the same talking heads (can't call many of them experts). My favourite was some genius on the ABC afternoon bulletin mentioning on how the Collins already have a "first strike capability". I'd love for him to show the boat crews where the hidden VLS tubes are !

Surface in a hostile port and lob Molotov cocktails' into the oil storage tanks? There was talk years ago, Beazleys era I believe, of Tomahawks on Collins, maybe the commentator hasn't retained anything new since then.

 

[hauritz]

What a week for defence news.
I suggest Navantia Australia JSS looks to fit this role very nicely. I wouldn't bet the house on it , but suggest there on to something. As to where it will be built, I cannot say. But suggest Williamstown has had it's day.
Regards S

I notice the budget for the sealift and replenishment vessels is between $4 to $6 billion ... which is not an insubstantial amount of money. I can see a lot of bidders dusting off their old JSS designs. It occurs to me however that by the time you add several thousand lane meters for vehicles and containers, hanger and flight deck, accommodation for landing craft, well deck, hospital, elevators, cranes, on top of several thousand tons of fuel and other liquids you could end up with something the size of one of the navy's LHDs.

The Karel Doorman, for example, comes in at around 28000 tons. HNLMS Karel Doorman (A833) - Wikipedia

This makes me wonder if we would not be better off with an additional Supply class AOR and a third LHD rather than risk doing what a number of other nations have struggled with ... building a JSS.

 

[OldTex]

On the so called "Pacific Support Ship" that I've read a bit of discussion on here, interestingly was chatting to some still serving mates today who are WOs in the warfare community. They called it "HMAS Thought Bubble", which indicates what at least one section of the Navy thinks of it !

There is no reason why the Pacific Support ship would be a commissioned ship, in fact it would probably be appropriate that it is an ADV. The 2020 FSP deals with the upgrade and future replacement of ADV Ocean Protector and in the same paragraph (4.15 on page 41) mentions the PSS as an additional build to the replacement of Ocean Protector.

 

[aussienscale]

I notice the budget for the sealift and replenishment vessels is between $4 to $6 billion ... which is not an insubstantial amount of money. I can see a lot of bidders dusting off their old JSS designs. It occurs to me however that by the time you add several thousand lane meters for vehicles and containers, hanger and flight deck, accommodation for landing craft, well deck, hospital, elevators, cranes, on top of several thousand tons of fuel and other liquids you could end up with something the size of one of the navy's LHDs.

The Karel Doorman, for example, comes in at around 28000 tons. HNLMS Karel Doorman (A833) - Wikipedia

This makes me wonder if we would not be better off with an additional Supply class AOR and a third LHD rather than risk doing what a number of other nations have struggled with ... building a JSS.

Generally when they talk about the budget for a proposed project they quote the upper band limit, does not always mean it will be used, but remember this is not just the purchase price.

Damen would have many designs in the background, and while I personally think that the KD would be overkill for this project, time will tell, I am sure there are options that will sit nicely into the space we need.

Early days and we do not yet know what the actual requirements call for, so could be something of the Navantia JSS size, could be a KD or something in between, so while it is good to initially throw around ideas on what it may look like it is more about the capability and what it means for our force structure at the moment.

I see these ships fitting into potential ferry runs whilst leaving the LHD's and AOR's on station, so think about a Timor situation, LHD's, AOR's and supporting destroyers and frigates remain on station, JSS ferry runs to re supply troops, equipment, top up stores, fuels, ammo etc.

If you look at, and settle down here Volk , the Navantia JSS proposed last year has the capacity of about half of Success, along with then the other capabilities, then step up to a KD and you are approaching the liquid capacities of the Supply Class, 8,000m3 fuel, 1,000m3 JP5, 450m3 water, along with everything else, so we would essentially end up with 4 supply ships for the fleet anyway.

I really like this move the more I think about it

Just my thoughts exciting times, chaffing at the bit for the updated shipbuilding plan to come out

Cheers

 

[DDG38]

There is no reason why the Pacific Support ship would be a commissioned ship, in fact it would probably be appropriate that it is an ADV. The 2020 FSP deals with the upgrade and future replacement of ADV Ocean Protector and in the same paragraph (4.15 on page 41) mentions the PSS as an additional build to the replacement of Ocean Protector.

Very much depends on platform size and intended mission. In my mind something called a Pacific Support Ship has sealift/amphibious implications which also means being deployed for disaster relief ops and fleet/tri service ops. AFAIK no ADV has been sent out in this role and would have significant implications for fleet operations (never mind getting past the cultural block of fleet sailors and their opinions of ADV crews). But at the end of the day, until something tangible and concrete has been put to paper all of this is completely speculative. We shall see.

 

[John Newman]

Generally when they talk about the budget for a proposed project they quote the upper band limit, does not always mean it will be used, but remember this is not just the purchase price.

Damen would have many designs in the background, and while I personally think that the KD would be overkill for this project, time will tell, I am sure there are options that will sit nicely into the space we need.

Early days and we do not yet know what the actual requirements call for, so could be something of the Navantia JSS size, could be a KD or something in between, so while it is good to initially throw around ideas on what it may look like it is more about the capability and what it means for our force structure at the moment.

I see these ships fitting into potential ferry runs whilst leaving the LHD's and AOR's on station, so think about a Timor situation, LHD's, AOR's and supporting destroyers and frigates remain on station, JSS ferry runs to re supply troops, equipment, top up stores, fuels, ammo etc.

If you look at, and settle down here Volk , the Navantia JSS proposed last year has the capacity of about half of Success, along with then the other capabilities, then step up to a KD and you are approaching the liquid capacities of the Supply Class, 8,000m3 fuel, 1,000m3 JP5, 450m3 water, along with everything else, so we would essentially end up with 4 supply ships for the fleet anyway.

I really like this move the more I think about it

Just my thoughts exciting times, chaffing at the bit for the updated shipbuilding plan to come out

Cheers

The announcement of the new 2 x JSS ships is a bit of a smoke and mirrors announcement. It's worth looking back at the 2016 DWP and DIIP to see where this new proposal started.

The 2016 DIIP stated that the LPD Choules would be kept in service and upgraded, and it would be eventually replaced by another LPD.

The DIIP also stated that Government would procure either a 3rd AOR or a 2nd Choules type LPD.

Roll forward to the 2020 update and those planned two ships from 2016 have now morphed into 2 x JSS ships, one to replace Choules and an additional ship.

According to the announcement from Navantia last year, their JSS design would provide the RAN with 70% of the load capability of Choules and 70% of the fuel capability of Success.

Two new ships? No, realistically more of a refinement of the 2016 plan.

Pretty good result for the RAN, the future heavy metal will be 2 x LHD, 2 x AOR and 2 x JSS (AOR/LPD hybrid).

Cheers,

 

[Flexson]

If you look at, and settle down here Volk , the Navantia JSS proposed last year has the capacity of about half of Success, along with then the other capabilities, then step up to a KD and you are approaching the liquid capacities of the Supply Class, 8,000m3 fuel, 1,000m3 JP5, 450m3 water, along with everything else, so we would essentially end up with 4 supply ships for the fleet anyway.


Cheers

Less than half the capacity of Success originally.

However after Success's double hulling her cargo fuel capacity was off the top of my head roughly 3600cz of F76/MDF and 780cz of F44 (that doesn't include her own use bunkers). So F76/MDF with a specific gravity of 820-860 kg/m3 is about 3024 tonnes and F44 with a specific gravity of 788-845 kg/m3 is about 637 tonnes. Navantia's JSS at 3600 tonnes F76/MDF and 600 tonnes of F44 has more capacity than Success had from 2011.

 

[Stampede]

The announcement of the new 2 x JSS ships is a bit of a smoke and mirrors announcement. It's worth looking back at the 2016 DWP and DIIP to see where this new proposal started.

The 2016 DIIP stated that the LPD Choules would be kept in service and upgraded, and it would be eventually replaced by another LPD.

The DIIP also stated that Government would procure either a 3rd AOR or a 2nd Choules type LPD.

Roll forward to the 2020 update and those planned two ships from 2016 have now morphed into 2 x JSS ships, one to replace Choules and an additional ship.

According to the announcement from Navantia last year, their JSS design would provide the RAN with 70% of the load capability of Choules and 70% of the fuel capability of Success.

Two new ships? No, realistically more of a refinement of the 2016 plan.

Pretty good result for the RAN, the future heavy metal will be 2 x LHD, 2 x AOR and 2 x JSS (AOR/LPD hybrid).

Cheers,

You summation of the 2016DWP is spot on.

What the recent Strategic update gives is some clarity.a time table and a budget to HMAS Choules replacement and that additional ship.
Not sure what you will call this type of vessel.
A hybrid amphibious supply vessel !!!
Anyway, what ever its name, it will increase the RAN up to a total of six vessels in the supply / Amphibious group and that is a good thing.
It also clarify's that the proposed Pacific Support Ship will not be one of the above.

What ever is selected, it will be by all accounts a big ship...................The RAN needs this capability and quantity of vessels
Still makes me wonder if in transition to this bigger fleet we either hold on to HMAS Sirius as an addition to the supply class or seek to buy / lease an additional Bay Class LSD.

Again the vibe in the Strategic Review was a concern about time.

Regards S


PS - Mods if I eat all my greens at dinner, go to bed early and keep my room tidy can we get a third LHD as well as all of the above.

Thanks

 

[ngatimozart]

PS - Mods if I eat all my greens at dinner, go to bed early and keep my room tidy can we get a third LHD as well as all of the above.

Thanks

We will have to think about it. After all it's up to Father Preceptor.

IMHO you would call such a vessel a JSS because that would be it's role would it not? The RAN has 2 LHDs, 1 LSD & 2 AOR when the new AOR arrive, but they and the RNZN do not have anything that can stick around providing logistics support to forces ashore for the long term. The 2 AOR and Aotearoa are generally required to sail with the task force and if the TF is required elsewhere then the forces ashore are in the brown smelly stuff because neither navy has vessels available to support them. Choules could do that but what if it's u/s (unserviceable) and unavailable? So it is my thought that they could be seriously considering something along the lines of a JSS.

 

[Volkodav]

We will have to think about it. After all it's up to Father Preceptor.

IMHO you would call such a vessel a JSS because that would be it's role would it not? The RAN has 2 LHDs, 1 LSD & 2 AOR when the new AOR arrive, but they and the RNZN do not have anything that can stick around providing logistics support to forces ashore for the long term. The 2 AOR and Aotearoa are generally required to sail with the task force and if the TF is required elsewhere then the forces ashore are in the brown smelly stuff because neither navy has vessels available to support them. Choules could do that but what if it's u/s (unserviceable) and unavailable? So it is my thought that they could be seriously considering something along the lines of a JSS.

If memory serves Spains JC1 has a RAS gantry to refuel escorts but this feature was deleted from the RANs LHDs. Two new LHDs with the feature incorporated? Then again USN CVs could refuel escort too I believe.

A more serious suggestion, how about Abraham Gubblers suggestion several years back of an adaption of a Lewis and Clark T-AKE as an AOR / JSS? Plenty of lane meters, plenty of dry cargo (literally floating warehouses), and a significant fuel capacity. Probably too big at 45,000 tons but something similar could be designed and built locally with GDs help.

 

[Redlands18]

If memory serves Spains JC1 has a RAS gantry to refuel escorts but this feature was deleted from the RANs LHDs. Two new LHDs with the feature incorporated? Then again USN CVs could refuel escort too I believe.

A more serious suggestion, how about Abraham Gubblers suggestion several years back of an adaption of a Lewis and Clark T-AKE as an AOR / JSS? Plenty of lane meters, plenty of dry cargo (literally floating warehouses), and a significant fuel capacity. Probably too big at 45,000 tons but something similar could be designed and built locally with GDs help.

Burke and Wills class?

 

[ngatimozart]

If memory serves Spains JC1 has a RAS gantry to refuel escorts but this feature was deleted from the RANs LHDs. Two new LHDs with the feature incorporated? Then again USN CVs could refuel escort too I believe.

A more serious suggestion, how about Abraham Gubblers suggestion several years back of an adaption of a Lewis and Clark T-AKE as an AOR / JSS? Plenty of lane meters, plenty of dry cargo (literally floating warehouses), and a significant fuel capacity. Probably too big at 45,000 tons but something similar could be designed and built locally with GDs help.

If you included a welldock and they were around the 20,000 - 25,000 tonnes displacement DWT that would probably work. Built to civilian standards as well. From memory Aotearoa has 8,500 tonnes of liquid capacity so, maybe 6,000 tonnes liquid capacity? 6,000 tonnes dry capacity? I would also have hangarage for 2 helos but only one normally carried. I would also suggest that they have NH90 MRH helos permanently shipped because they can lift more than Romeos / Sierras, which means faster VERTREPS and / or personnel transfers. That's my 2 cents worth.

 

[swerve]

Zr.Ms. Karel Doorman - Joint Support Ship for multi mission naval support

28,000 tons full load. Steel beach rather than a well dock, but I'm sure Damen would be happy to build you a modified version. Up to 6 helicopters.

 

[spoz]

Actually the Sierra (9000 lbs) has a slightly greater hook capability than the NH-90 (4000 kg). (Memory suggests the Romeo is 6000 lbs but that might be wrong.) Doesn’t have as great an internal capacity or a rear door, but they’re not the criteria for VERTREPs; and they can take on other functions such as mine sweeping.

So if you want a helo for Naval ops, I would go for the Sierra, if for amphib the NH-90. The original choice of the NH-90 was always a compromise under a policy then in effect that one size should be made to fit all, right or wrong as that may have been.

What I would like to see is a buy of Sierras, say 10-12, with the NH 90 that had been allocated to Navy going to a new Army Squadron primarily dedicated to Amphib ops.