German Navy

[kato]

It is already acquiring 18 NH90 Sea Lion helos to replace its Sea King fleet.

10 months later, and after this was pushed back quite a couple times:

The German Navy officially accepted delivery of the first NH90 "Sea Lion" on May 27th and had the first delivered June 4th - official commissioning ceremony is this thursday.

• "Sea Lion" is the NTH version - the navalized NFH frame without the ASW equipment package (but with the ENR surveillance radar retained), equipped with the rear cargo ramp of the TTH as a distinctive visible feature and some other minor differences. "Sea Tiger" is planned to be a NTH with the ASW package of the NFH added to it.
• France also operates NTH, although they subsume these under the general NFH designation - out of their 27 NFH helicopters 13 are NTH.
• In the Netherlands the "TNFH" version for the Air Force are NTH, while the Navy runs NFH.
• Italy's "MITT" variant is a NTH omitting the surveillance radar, intended for amphibious troop transport. Note that the Italian Navy additionally also operates some TTH, i.e. non-navalized frames.
• Norway and Belgium do not operate NTH. The Norwegian Coastguard NH90 are NFH (without ramp) without the ASW equipment.

 

[ngatimozart]

Thanks @kato The NH90TTH, are they navilised or marinised in any way? I have been told that all they require is folding blades, emergency flotation device, uprated landing gear and anti-corrosion paint & gap seal. That I doubt, but haven't been able to find any thing that states what, if anything, has been marinised.

 

[kato]

The NFH/NTH has a number of structural changes to the bottom of the cabin in order to accomodate optional modules particular to a naval version:

• dipping sonar : circular cutout behind cargo hook (black square)
• bulge behind that cutout which is have no idea about what kind of sensor is mounted in that, possibly an approach camera for deck landings
• deck lock device (harpoon) : right behind that bulge
• sonobuoy launcher : small cutout at ramp edge (not in main cabin section but rear fuselage*)

* i.e. produced by Agusta, not Eurocopter Germany.

Here on a Sea Lion / NTH one can sorta see these:



The TTH cabin does not have these "structural preparations". However, not all NTH or NFH models deploy all/any of these items either, but the structural difference is still present. For example Italian, Swedish and Dutch Air Force NFH do not have a deck-lock device.


The Italian MITT might actually be using a TTH cabin (i.e. without those mount points) while navalizing all other components (those you mentioned plus foldable tail boom).

 

[ngatimozart]

The NFH/NTH has a number of structural changes to the bottom of the cabin in order to accomodate optional modules particular to a naval version:

• dipping sonar : circular cutout behind cargo hook (black square)
• bulge behind that cutout which is have no idea about what kind of sensor is mounted in that, possibly an approach camera for deck landings
• deck lock device (harpoon) : right behind that bulge
• sonobuoy launcher : small cutout at ramp edge (not in main cabin section but rear fuselage*)

* i.e. produced by Agusta, not Eurocopter Germany.

Here on a Sea Lion / NTH one can sorta see these:

View attachment 47446

The TTH cabin does not have these "structural preparations". However, not all NTH or NFH models deploy all/any of these items either, but the structural difference is still present. For example Italian, Swedish and Dutch Air Force NFH do not have a deck-lock device.


The Italian MITT might actually be using a TTH cabin (i.e. without those mount points) while navalizing all other components (those you mentioned plus foldable tail boom).

Thanks @kato What about the internal stuff like the wiring, hoses, metal fittings etc., for the engines?

 

[76mmGuns]

I was wondering if anyone knows where the F125's 7000ton weight comes from. the FREMM is a bit shorter, has sonar, VLS, and torpedoes, and weighs less. The Type 26 has about the same dimensions as the F125 weighs more, but has more advanced sensors, torpedoes, VLS, and sonar. Is the armour thicker?

I read all 7 pages here and links and didn't see anything about this.

 

[ngatimozart]

I was wondering if anyone knows where the F125's 7000ton weight comes from. the FREMM is a bit shorter, has sonar, VLS, and torpedoes, and weighs less. The Type 26 has about the same dimensions as the F125 weighs more, but has more advanced sensors, torpedoes, VLS, and sonar. Is the armour thicker?

I read all 7 pages here and links and didn't see anything about this.

IIRC the full load weight of a Type 26 is about 6,900 tonnes, so may be better to define what weight you are talking about.

 

[kato]

I was wondering if anyone knows where the F125's 7000ton weight comes from. the FREMM is a bit shorter, has sonar, VLS, and torpedoes, and weighs less. The Type 26 has about the same dimensions as the F125 weighs more, but has more advanced sensors, torpedoes, VLS, and sonar. Is the armour thicker?

Armament doesn't really have anything to do with weight - except partially for a VLS, which places a certain burden on one hull section that has to be compensated for throughout the other sections.

One main driving factor in modern frigate sizes in Europe is crew berthing, which affords about 2-3 times as much space per person (with 4-man cabins for junior rates).

The doubling of all control systems between CIC below forward superstructure and ship operations room below aft superstructure, including fully redundant server nodes and failover network structure in the F125 for survivability reasons also probably doesn't come cheap weight-wise.

 

[76mmGuns]

IIRC the full load weight of a Type 26 is about 6,900 tonnes, so may be better to define what weight you are talking about.

Every article I've seen only says its displacement is ewither 7000tons, or 7200 tons

eg

Second F125 Baden-Württemberg-class Frigate Delivered to Germany - Naval News

On 3 March 2020, the frigate NORDRHEIN-WESTFALEN was handed over by the ARGE F125 consortium to the Federal Office of Bundeswehr Equipment, Information Technology and In- Service Support (BAAINBw).

www.navalnews.com

 

[76mmGuns]

Armament doesn't really have anything to do with weight - except partially for a VLS, which places a certain burden on one hull section that has to be compensated for throughout the other sections.

One main driving factor in modern frigate sizes in Europe is crew berthing, which affords about 2-3 times as much space per person (with 4-man cabins for junior rates).

The doubling of all control systems between CIC below forward superstructure and ship operations room below aft superstructure, including fully redundant server nodes and failover network structure in the F125 for survivability reasons also probably doesn't come cheap weight-wise.

So the extra size and steel is there for crew comfort and computing hardware protection? Ok, thanks

 

[ngatimozart]

Every article I've seen only says its displacement is ewither 7000tons, or 7200 tons

eg

Second F125 Baden-Württemberg-class Frigate Delivered to Germany - Naval News

On 3 March 2020, the frigate NORDRHEIN-WESTFALEN was handed over by the ARGE F125 consortium to the Federal Office of Bundeswehr Equipment, Information Technology and In- Service Support (BAAINBw).

www.navalnews.com

That's the problem. You have different types of displacement, light and loaded. Best described in the link below.

Ship Tonnage Explained - Displacement, Deadweight, Etc. | GG Archives

Ships may have different gross tonnage, depending on which country's rules were used in determining the weight. A great explanation on displacement and tonnages for ships.

www.gjenvick.com

 

[ASSAIL]

That's the problem. You have different types of displacement, light and loaded. Best described in the link below.

Ship Tonnage Explained - Displacement, Deadweight, Etc. | GG Archives

Ships may have different gross tonnage, depending on which country's rules were used in determining the weight. A great explanation on displacement and tonnages for ships.

www.gjenvick.com

Navies almost exclusively use displacement tonnage for combatants where the only variable is lightweight or full load.
Lightweight being a fully equipped ship without stores, ammo, water, fuel and people and their belongings.

Other tonnages refer to internal space, cargo capacity, volume minus certain engineering and navigation spaces and are used by regulators, classification societies, port and canal/waterway authorities in order to levy charges and assess insurances.

 

[kato]

The two older German AORs A1411 Berlin and A1412 Frankfurt am Main originally were delivered in 2002 with a containerized medical rescue center (MERZ) each that could be embarked when needed - usually they just kept them mounted. Capacity- and capability-wise they're broadly comparable to what the USN has onboard LHD/LHAs. When not needed they can be uninstalled, with additional container capacity (about 30-40 or so TEU) available onboard then.

However in 2015, while stored on land, the MERZ of Frankfurt am Main was destroyed in a fire.

So, they thought, let's buy a new one. Make it slightly improved (yes, its name is "iMERZ") and, since they're shipping out with them anyway, let's just build a deckhouse in place of the container installation. Doesn't come all that cheap, they're investing 15 million Euro.

Contract goes out to GNYK, who designs it back in 2016, and after a couple years starts building it. Now comes February 2020, and Frankfurt am Main goes in for some shipyard works for a few weeks anyway. Perfect opportunity to install the finished new deckhouse after those are done. Come April, and it's time to do that, lifting the 120-ton deckhouse (complete with equipment) in place to fit it in. Except: It doesn't fit. And it doesn't fit in a way where connecting cables and other supply routes would have to be re-laid.

Results so far:

• project management switched out
• new iMERZ deckhouse going to the scrapyard
• GNYK is going to build a new one
• new one won't be installed before Frankfurt am Main goes through her full mid-life upgrade end of this year
• whether it will be installed after that depends on where that upgrade will be done, for which there's a EU-wide tender process right now

 

[John Fedup]

The two older German AORs A1411 Berlin and A1412 Frankfurt am Main originally were delivered in 2002 with a containerized medical rescue center (MERZ) each that could be embarked when needed - usually they just kept them mounted. Capacity- and capability-wise they're broadly comparable to what the USN has onboard LHD/LHAs. When not needed they can be uninstalled, with additional container capacity (about 30-40 or so TEU) available onboard then.

However in 2015, while stored on land, the MERZ of Frankfurt am Main was destroyed in a fire.

So, they thought, let's buy a new one. Make it slightly improved (yes, its name is "iMERZ") and, since they're shipping out with them anyway, let's just build a deckhouse in place of the container installation. Doesn't come all that cheap, they're investing 15 million Euro.

Contract goes out to GNYK, who designs it back in 2016, and after a couple years starts building it. Now comes February 2020, and Frankfurt am Main goes in for some shipyard works for a few weeks anyway. Perfect opportunity to install the finished new deckhouse after those are done. Come April, and it's time to do that, lifting the 120-ton deckhouse (complete with equipment) in place to fit it in. Except: It doesn't fit. And it doesn't fit in a way where connecting cables and other supply routes would have to be re-laid.

Results so far:

• project management switched out
• new iMERZ deckhouse going to the scrapyard
• GNYK is going to build a new one
• new one won't be installed before Frankfurt am Main goes through her full mid-life upgrade end of this year
• whether it will be installed after that depends on where that upgrade will be done, for which there's a EU-wide tender process right now

Perhaps the iMERX deckhouse should have been sold to Canada’s SeaSpan for our Berlin based AORs. Junior is always looking for cheap solutions for Canadian defence. The deckhouse could be put on a barge and towed around for a few days and marketed as used kit but even newer than Australian Hornets.

 

[kato]

You'd probably spend around 100-150 million on that barge though considering the scale ratio for the JSS vs the Berlin class in price...

 

[Zoomer]

One last question:
Germany and France are working towards common procurements.
FCAS for the Air Force
MGCS for the Army
Do you have any info if something similar is going to happen for the Navy?
F127 probably?

 

[kato]

The common procurement project for the two navies for the same timeframe (2030s+) is MAWS, the Maritime Airborne Warfare System. Successor for P-3C for Germany and for Atlantique II for France.

 

[Toptob]

Armament doesn't really have anything to do with weight - except partially for a VLS, which places a certain burden on one hull section that has to be compensated for throughout the other sections.

One main driving factor in modern frigate sizes in Europe is crew berthing, which affords about 2-3 times as much space per person (with 4-man cabins for junior rates).

The doubling of all control systems between CIC below forward superstructure and ship operations room below aft superstructure, including fully redundant server nodes and failover network structure in the F125 for survivability reasons also probably doesn't come cheap weight-wise.

As a prefix, I'm not a defense pro. And kato is definitely better informed about defense than I am. I think he probably is one of the top people on this forum with regards to Western European defense related matters.

However! Weapons do play a role in the weight of a warship. Although unlike with battleships we don't use ammunition that weighs a ton per shell, the weight of modern naval weaponry is definitely not nothing. And maybe more important is the space that needs to be created to accommodate this weaponry. For something like a VLS to be bigger the ships length would need to increase, and you could make your ship smaller or lighter if you use a smaller gun or omit it completely. Most modern weapons like air defense and anti ship missiles need sensors and subsystems to support them. In the end you're right, and it's not the weapons per se, but rather the implications for the design that follow from those choices can influence the weight and shape of a ship.

As you say, European navies a building roomier ships. But from what I have heard the F-125 is like an armed cruise ship, it even comes with two saunas! But another important reason for the F-125 being so big and relatively lightly armed is because of when and for what it was designed. It is well known that this is supposed to be some kind of global patrol ship that can operate away from home for long periods with little maintenance. So aside from the in built redundancy I would think they would need to bring a lot of extra equipment and spares to keep the ship running away from port for two years.

To summarize my argument, the F-125 is heavy because it needs to be comfortable for crews to operate away from home for long periods. And it's lightly armed because of the Germans usual pacifist pussyfooting.

The two older German AORs A1411 Berlin and A1412 Frankfurt am Main originally were delivered in 2002 with a containerized medical rescue center (MERZ) each that could be embarked when needed - usually they just kept them mounted. Capacity- and capability-wise they're broadly comparable to what the USN has onboard LHD/LHAs. When not needed they can be uninstalled, with additional container capacity (about 30-40 or so TEU) available onboard then.

However in 2015, while stored on land, the MERZ of Frankfurt am Main was destroyed in a fire.

So, they thought, let's buy a new one. Make it slightly improved (yes, its name is "iMERZ") and, since they're shipping out with them anyway, let's just build a deckhouse in place of the container installation. Doesn't come all that cheap, they're investing 15 million Euro.

Contract goes out to GNYK, who designs it back in 2016, and after a couple years starts building it. Now comes February 2020, and Frankfurt am Main goes in for some shipyard works for a few weeks anyway. Perfect opportunity to install the finished new deckhouse after those are done. Come April, and it's time to do that, lifting the 120-ton deckhouse (complete with equipment) in place to fit it in. Except: It doesn't fit. And it doesn't fit in a way where connecting cables and other supply routes would have to be re-laid.

Results so far:

• project management switched out
• new iMERZ deckhouse going to the scrapyard
• GNYK is going to build a new one
• new one won't be installed before Frankfurt am Main goes through her full mid-life upgrade end of this year
• whether it will be installed after that depends on where that upgrade will be done, for which there's a EU-wide tender process right now

Sounds like business as usual for the German naval shipbuilders and defense apparatus lately.

 

[swerve]

The common procurement project for the two navies for the same timeframe (2030s+) is MAWS, the Maritime Airborne Warfare System. Successor for P-3C for Germany and for Atlantique II for France.

Would that also fit the Spanish timetable for replacing their modernised P-3s?

 

[ngatimozart]

The common procurement project for the two navies for the same timeframe (2030s+) is MAWS, the Maritime Airborne Warfare System. Successor for P-3C for Germany and for Atlantique II for France.

Do you think that will be the MPA variant of the A320 that Airbus have been pushing lately? Or will the C295MPA suffice? If it's the A320MPA then Airbus better start getting a move on because it's not easy adapting an airliner to a MPA - just ask Boeing, or Lockheed for that matter. I realise that Airbus had already had an es earlier proposal with the A319MPA, so they are part way there and they can leverage off that.

 

[At lakes]

German MoD Ends P-3C Orion MPA Modernization Program - Seeking Alternative - Naval News


The German / French agreement to find a common airframe for the replacement of the Orion P3C and the ATL 2 appear to have been thrown out of sync. The German navy were going to modernize their P3 aircraft but it would appear due to the costs involved they intend to retire them early. The French are currently having updated ATL2 aircraft delivered to them and will not require replacement until the mid-30’s. This out of sync situation has forced the Germain Navy to explore alternatives or interim replacements. The German Navy intend to retire the Orion by 2025 where as the French will retire the ATL2 by 2035. The common airframe that appears to be the front runner is the Airbus A320 MPA variant shown in the article. T