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German Navy

Discussion in 'Navy & Maritime' started by gf0012-aust, Feb 14, 2017.

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  1. gf0012-aust

    gf0012-aust Grumpy Old Man Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    catch all thread
     
  2. gf0012-aust

    gf0012-aust Grumpy Old Man Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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  3. gf0012-aust

    gf0012-aust Grumpy Old Man Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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  4. swerve

    swerve Super Moderator

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    That adds up to six MKS-180 (F126?), four F125, three F124 & 10 K130/K131.
     
  5. vonnoobie

    vonnoobie Member

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    Not to mention the 8 submarines they plan to have by 2030.. Quickly going from a respectable small navy to one decent sized tough one.
     
  6. Volkodav

    Volkodav Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    Then again how much better off would Australia be if we had done similar and simply ordered an evolved FFG-7 instead of the ANZACs, or a second batch of AWDs without mucking around with long procurements? The FFGs are cheaper to sustain than the ANZACs while delivering greater capability and reportedly greater survivability and I can't help but wonder if we went straight from Newcastle to an evolved but still very similar ship if they could have been bought for the same price or less than an ANZAC.

    Same with F100 now, we are going for a build of three DDGs, to two OPVs after running down the workforce, then will move to what may be a version of the DDGs they just completed, would it not have been cheaper and more sensible to get the AWD Alliance to simply quote and a second batch of ships while the teaming, work force and supply chain were still in place. The government knows how much the first ships cost, they know how much cheaper the second repeat was, it's not rocket science to calculate a fair price for a new batch with specified upgrades, etc.
     
  7. Waylander

    Waylander Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    It looks like the navy was nearly as surprised as the public with all the anouncements of additional ships. It's also interesting with the recent shift back to a focus on conventional warfare in the east. The navy plays second fiddle compared to the army and air force in such an event.

    But they are happy to grab the chance. Manning will be difficult though.
     
  8. kato

    kato Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    The additional 2 submarines are being fasttracked. They were originally announced for 2030 but will now be procured faster as part of a joint German-Norwegian submarine procurement contract.

    If we want to be technical, the force multipliers are more important though. Three A702 AORs plus two A704 AOs (to be replaced around 2021, also new contract), six A404 multipurpose tenders and the three A423 surveillance ships (also up for a replacement contract that no one talks about yet). Plus the recently new rights to use the Dutch Karel Doorman JSS (which isn't just a "renting space" agreement - the navy is setting up a 70-man support unit for this) and the sealift ship flotilla set up with Denmark (including purpose-built Ark Germania and Ark Danica).

    And compared to CIR, the newest service of the Bundeswehr that is planned to have as many soldiers as the navy in five years. At least if it goes as currently envisioned.
     
  9. kato

    kato Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    Contract for those additional K130 should be negotiated within the next two weeks. And will likely amount to €2 billion instead of €1.5 billion.
     
  10. kato

    kato Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    First offer by TKMS on the contract for K130 has been rejected by the government as too pricey.

    Assumption is that since Privinvest, the Lebanese owners of GNYK, are trying to fight the fact that a tender process was skipped the government does not want to hand TKMS much more than on the agreed budget (the 1.5 billion) to preclude people pointing out that a GNYK offer - and hence an open tender - could be considerably cheaper.
     
  11. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    The German frigate FGS Brandenburg ran aground whilst departing the Greek port of Piraeus. There appears to be to her rudders and propellers. She is at the Greek Naval base in Salamis undergoing damage assessment.
     
  12. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    One liners by newbies are not acceptable. When a Mod or a senior member starts a thread, as in this case, with a one liner it is generally for an obvious reason.
     
  13. kato

    kato Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    Funding for the five additional K130 corvettes was signed off by the budget committee on wednesday.

    End price per ship is 398 million Euro plus 94 million worth in equipment that the Bundeswehr will contribute for re-use (e.g. RAM launchers, guns etc).

    Budget committee also got an information package that wednesday on the planned U212CD procurement. Planned cost on the German side is 1.85 billion Euro, although - within the "cooperation package" - that also includes procurement of NSM missiles for 17 ships. Construction funding for the submarines will be requested from the committee in 2019, first delivery planned in 2027.
     
  14. Volkodav

    Volkodav Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    A question on the F-123 Brandenburgs.

    Does anyone know what length VLS they have, i.e. point defence, tactical, or strategic, and also l noticed in photos there appears to be space for another two eight cell modules forward of the current pair for a total of 32 cells, is this the case?

    I am curious as I recall the F-123 being discussed as a possible successor to the Perth Class DDG and the original for Adelaide Class FFGs during the mid 90s as the ANZAC, even stretched, was realised not to be suitable for the role. I also wondered if the design could have been adapted to a mix of SM- 2 and NSS/ESSM, as well as Harpoon canisters to suit the RAN. Obviously these discussions were before the FFGUP and AWD plans.
     
  15. swerve

    swerve Super Moderator

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    They're ASW frigates built for Sea Sparrow, replaced by ESSM. I doubt if they have more than self-defence length.
     
  16. Volkodav

    Volkodav Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    That was my initial thought but then I was told the ANZACs, for instance, were fitted with tactical length, leaving SM-2 and VLASROC as options, which got me wondering. I have been trying to find a 20+ year old article that discussed the RAN DDG/FFG replacement options that mentioned the F-123 to see if it has any additional information.
     
  17. kato

    kato Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    F123 has self-defense length Mk41 Mod 3 to my knowledge, with a Mk220 MLC *.
    F124 has tactical length Mk41 Mod 10.

    * necessary to fire NSSM in Mk41, transplanted from Mk48. Only Germany, Turkey and Australia used these.

    Supposedly USNI's Combat Fleets by Eric Wertheim claims otherwise for F123, giving it a tactical-length Mk41 "Mod 4" (otherwise unknown) with ability to expand the installation to 32 cells.
     
  18. Volkodav

    Volkodav Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    Thanks for that. I recall reading something years ago that actually broke down the various mod numbers into type / length but haven't been able to find it and can't even remember if it was on a website, in a book or magazine.
     
  19. kato

    kato Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    According to Flotilla Admiral Reineke, in charge of Navy Planning:

    • "amphibious capability" to be built up jointly with Netherlands by the end of the 2020s
      • "in his opinion" possibly with two "big decks" each operated by either country by then
      • intermediate expanded joint use of Dutch units
    • replacement for mine countermeasures capability with 11 new units by 2026
    • auxiliary replacement projects in planning phase
      • replacement for A704 fleet oilers "underway" (... like it has been for a decade)
      • replacement for A404 tenders for support and supply primarily of corvettes and mine warfare units, possibly also for supporting submarines of other nations
    • Sea Lynx replacement from 2025
    • upgrade of F124 as BMD pickets by 2024

    Also, one of the two remaining Class 520 LSM - currently mostly used for logistics - was taken out of service and immediately scrapped this month due to extremely bad state of repair (discovered in a shipyard where she was for regular maintenance). Only two of these - originally 22 - boats built in 1964-66 remain afloat, one in active service and one owned by a naval veteran association.
     
  20. DaveS124

    DaveS124 Member

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    F-125 fiasco has hit the pages of the Wall Street Journal, no less.

    German Engineering Yields New Warship That Isn’t Fit for Sea

    Navy refuses to commission frigate after it failed sea trials; critics cite fiasco in conception and execution

    William Wilkes
    Jan. 12, 2018

    BERLIN—Germany’s naval brass in 2005 dreamed up a warship that could ferry marines into combat anywhere in the world, go up against enemy ships and stay away from home ports for two years with a crew half the size of its predecessor’s.

    The F-125 frigate program was supposed to deliver Germany’s four largest military ships of the postwar era, fitted with cutting-edge software allowing high operability with a skeleton crew.

    But after the ship failed sea trials last month, naval officials refused to commission it. The German Navy said the Baden-Württemberg’s central computer system—the design centerpiece allowing it to sail with a smaller crew—didn’t pass necessary tests. The Kieler Nachrichten, a daily in the German Baltic fleet’s home port of Kiel, has reported problems with its radar, electronics and the flameproof coating on its fuel tanks. The vessel was also found to list to the starboard, a flaw a project spokesman says has been corrected. The Baden-Württemberg is now set to return to port next week for an “extended period,” the navy said.

    Long article at the link here - German Engineering Yields New Warship That Isn’t Fit for Sea