German Navy

[John Fedup]

A situation not unlike Canada’s, first, Gen Rick Hillier’s proposal for a “big honking ship” ( hooking on to the tail end of the USN’s San Antonio class) and second, Canada’s half -a$$ attempt to acquire the Mistrals originally intended for Russia. At least Germany has built their Berlin class AORs, something Canada has yet to do.

 

[kato]

The Navy has officially asked for final offers from bidders for MKS180:
chiefdeunavy on Twitter
(in German, by Chief Admiral of the Navy Krause)

They've also published an actual description now (in German) which confirms some earlier specs and denies others:
https://t.co/qVp67bTT7E

• maximum 9000 tons displacement (standard load, by context)
  
• waterline length 155 m (which is exactly identical to an Arleigh Burke)
  
• crew of 110 core plus 70 for modules
• weapons outfit pretty much identical to F125 - plus ESSM Block II.
• default modules are "ASW Overview" (for ASW) and "custody" (for MIO) in three flex decks.
• intensive use layout derived from F125

Stated deployment scenarios are:

• Patrolling large deployment areas
• Embargo/blockade monitoring
• Evacuation scenarios
• Symmetric ASuW and ASW warfare within the North Atlantic and Mediterranean

 

[kato]

The first F125 was finally commissioned last week.

 

[OPSSG]

The first F125 was finally commissioned last week.

Congrats.

The defects cited are usually not in the ship itself btw but in subcontracted parts provided by the cheapest bidder.

The higher weight and the inclining are within the range of design specs and won't be addressed in any way...

The flameproof coating cited in particular is not a current problem...

The primary rejection issues supposedly are problems with the CMS and its integration both on sensor and effector side and primarily software-sided. Some minor issues supposedly persist in some secondary systems (food cooling, freshwater plants), but these would not have led to rejection in this way.

Is the Baden-Württemberg still dramatically overweight after its acceptance by BAAINBw (or is it just a compensation issue, for a slight deviation from specs)? I would assume that all other problems, like the CMS are fixed?

 

[kato]

Formal acceptance was on April 30th with a list of defects yet to be solved - for which the companies had seven weeks, until now (i.e. until commissioning - the formal commissioning event with politicians etc was one hour ago).

As far as i know the overweight (178t or 2.5% over specs) and the slight listing (1.3°) was not part of the fixable defects list.

 

[ngatimozart]

Germany has chosen the NH90 NFH as the replacement for its current fleet of 21 Lynx ASW helicopters. It is already acquiring 18 NH90 Sea Lion helos to replace its Sea King fleet. Does make sense because the Heer, German Army, operates the NH90 TTH.

Germany picks NH90 to replace Sea Lynx

 

[OPSSG]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1206650510863929344

Joint Type 212CD submarine procurement by Germany & Norway. Contract hoped to be signed by end 2020. Cost for four Norwegian boats 3.9 bln Euros (incl R&D). Norway now expects first delivery by 2030.

 

[Ananda]

German Navy commissions its second F125 Baden-Württemberg-class Frigate - Naval News

Tomorrow, Wednesday 10 June 2020, the German Navy will put into service the second of a total of four F125 class frigates, the "Nordrhein-Westfalen".

www.navalnews.com

Seems the second F125 got much smoother integration phase compared to the first one.
For all assessment of F125 on many forums and media, for me I just can't think this ships as no other than large LCS German version.

Expensive, good range, but lightly armed. Just another LCS equivalent build by German Engineering.

 

[Todjaeger]

German Navy commissions its second F125 Baden-Württemberg-class Frigate - Naval News

Tomorrow, Wednesday 10 June 2020, the German Navy will put into service the second of a total of four F125 class frigates, the "Nordrhein-Westfalen".

www.navalnews.com

Seems the second F125 got much smoother integration phase compared to the first one.
For all assessment of F125 on many forums and media, for me I just can't think this ships as no other than large LCS German version.

Expensive, good range, but lightly armed. Just another LCS equivalent build by German Engineering.

Not quite, IMO. The vessel has a significantly greater displacement than an LCS, but also has a bit heavier armament. What I think is even more significant is that an F125-class frigate is supposed to have an embarked force of 50 special forces.

The two areas where the design is a bit 'light' from my POV is in terms of air defence and ASW. In addition to several rapid fire guns of various calibres ranging from 127 mm naval gun with precision munitions, to 27 mm guns, and even 12.7 mm HMG's, the class has two Block II RAM launchers with 21 missiles. That certainly works to provide a CIWS or VSHRAD capability, but the design is missing any short-medium, medium, or medium-long range air defence capability. Similarly, the lack of an ASW sonar and LWT makes the design unsuitable for ASW operations, and at least as important, would require an ASW-capable escort if the class needed to deploy to, or transit through an area with hostile subs.

 

[Redlands18]

Not quite, IMO. The vessel has a significantly greater displacement than an LCS, but also has a bit heavier armament. What I think is even more significant is that an F125-class frigate is supposed to have an embarked force of 50 special forces.

The two areas where the design is a bit 'light' from my POV is in terms of air defence and ASW. In addition to several rapid fire guns of various calibres ranging from 127 mm naval gun with precision munitions, to 27 mm guns, and even 12.7 mm HMG's, the class has two Block II RAM launchers with 21 missiles. That certainly works to provide a CIWS or VSHRAD capability, but the design is missing any short-medium, medium, or medium-long range air defence capability. Similarly, the lack of an ASW sonar and LWT makes the design unsuitable for ASW operations, and at least as important, would require an ASW-capable escort if the class needed to deploy to, or transit through an area with hostile subs.

The design requirement is for mainly Land Attack, are to eventually get the RBS-15 mod 4 joint Sea/Land attack Missile and be able to deploy for up to 2 years away from base. I don’t think you can think of them as a conventional Frigate and would need to be operating as part of a Task Force, they are not really an escort.

 

[kato]

The design requirement is for mainly Land Attack

The design requirement for F125 is for:

• a sea control platform for longer-duration maritime interdiction operations
• acting as a C4I centerpiece for a taskgroup in this type of operations
• but also able to act as an active participant in these or as a sole such unit
• with the add-on capability of being able to escalate coastal and - primarily - shoreside operations through strike options

Operationally the ships are primarily geared towards what - with a bit hyperbole - seemingly half the German navy has been doing for the past 15 years - patrolling the Mediterranean and Western Indian Ocean. Its design was started around the time this kind of operations began, addresses shortcomings found in ships tasked for these purposes and is laid out specifically for "freeing up" other units from such tasks on a better-than-1-to-1 ratio.

For all assessment of F125 on many forums and media, for me I just can't think this ships as no other than large LCS German version.

There is some limited overlap with the LCS ASuW module in intended operations, although not as much as one may think.

The sensor and electronics fit of a F125 is far more geared specifically towards a maritime theater surveillance role, interaction with other assets (incl. shoreside) as well as being laid out for high survivability in attack scenarios. LCS, partially for cost reasons, is very, well... mid 80s standard? in that regard.

The closest match probably is the Italian "PPA Light+" version of the Thaon di Revel class, with the first of three planned (+1 option) having been laid down last year. They're basically intended for the same kind of mission, with minor differences.

 

[swerve]

The design requirement is for mainly Land Attack, are to eventually get the RBS-15 mod 4 joint Sea/Land attack Missile and be able to deploy for up to 2 years away from base. I don’t think you can think of them as a conventional Frigate and would need to be operating as part of a Task Force, they are not really an escort.

If land attack was the main design requirement I think it would be capable of carrying a lot more land attack missiles.

I recall it being called a "colonial cruiser" when the design became public. While the "colonial" is obviously outdated, the functions (described by Kato) are in some ways comparable. It should be very capable in the anti-piracy role, for example, & able to lead a flotilla of other craft in such taskings.

 

[kato]

I recall it being called a "colonial cruiser" when the design became public.

It was me that introduced the term in 2007.

If land attack was the main design requirement I think it would be capable of carrying a lot more land attack missiles.

The primary operation this capability requirement stems from was the somewhat little-known evacuation of civilians by German troops from Albania in 1997 while under fire - Operation Libelle.

During this operation frigate F208 Niedersachsen entered Albanian territorial waters in support of the evacuation, providing air surveillance and control over the area and provided a secondary option in particular for MEDEVAC with her two Sea Lynx as well as a secondary communications relay (primary was airborne in C-160).
In the middle of the landing - three out of five helicopters on the ground - the main evacuation force came under fire from insurgents in adhoc-armored cars which turned into a 20-minute firefight with the infantry platoon deployed as security.
The possibility of an armed encounter was a calculated risk in the operation, in particular after the US had cancelled a similar operation the same day after one of their helicopters barely evaded MANPADS fired at it. Insurgents in Tirana were seen driving around heavily-armed in APCs at the time.

The sought-after capability addresses the lack of available fire support in Operation Libelle. And since this kind of requirement is primarily a possible escalation of an embargo or other maritime interdiction scenario of course a ship meant as a primary asset for such operations (i.e. F125) would be the primary carrier.

 

[spoz]

In my view they represent a view of the employment of Naval forces, as being only an adjunct to a land operation, that while certainly appropriate for the 90s and early 2000s is becoming less so as the world once again polarises and an era of great power competition looks to replace the fragmented, failed state and anti terrorist operations of the 20 years after the end of the cold war. I'm not sure that they would offer great value for oceanic operations in a hot war but then that was not apparently in their requirements set. Whether that requirements set and its solution were appropriate to Germans needs in the future will have to be seen.

 

[Ananda]

The sensor and electronics fit of a F125 is far more geared specifically towards a maritime theater surveillance role, interaction with other assets (incl. shoreside) as well as being laid out for high survivability in attack scenarios. LCS, partially for cost reasons, is very, well... mid 80s standard? in that regard.

Thanks Kato for your explanation. My point on putting F125 with relation to LCS more to the concept based thinking behind F125. As you have put how F125 build on the concept of 'theater maritime patrol' is something that have similarities with USN concept of LCS. Likewise LCS as USN operation in SE or East Asian waters shown initially it's doing long range patroling duties with horizon sights of support maritime security. Something that USN found increasing lacking capabilities due to Chinese interaction activities that increasingly shown potential peer to peer hostile position.

Thus this LCS similarities that I put in my post. Both LCS and F125 are made on the scenario of non peer to peer maritime interaction. Concept of early 2000 where the West think more of any maritime adversaries will come from smaller states or non state actors with limited capacities. Something that will never turn to peer to peer confrontation scenarios.

Thus as USN already decided to curtailed LCS program due to changing environment that increasingly shown potential of back to 'cold war scenario' especially with China and Russia, German still build this F125 on the concept that could be irrelevant for Europe future maritime interaction. I do hope F125 can shown flexibility for more peer to peer scenario, and not like LCS which in the end put USN to come back building Frigates that they in early 2000 has decided to change with LCS.

 

[Redlands18]

Thanks Kato for your explanation. My point on putting F125 with relation to LCS more to the concept based thinking behind F125. As you have put how F125 build on the concept of 'theater maritime patrol' is something that have similarities with USN concept of LCS. Likewise LCS as USN operation in SE or East Asian waters shown initially it's doing long range patroling duties with horizon sights of support maritime security. Something that USN found increasing lacking capabilities due to Chinese interaction activities that increasingly shown potential peer to peer hostile position.

Thus this LCS similarities that I put in my post. Both LCS and F125 are made on the scenario of non peer to peer maritime interaction. Concept of early 2000 where the West think more of any maritime adversaries will come from smaller states or non state actors with limited capacities. Something that will never turn to peer to peer confrontation scenarios.

Thus as USN already decided to curtailed LCS program due to changing environment that increasingly shown potential of back to 'cold war scenario' especially with China and Russia, German still build this F125 on the concept that could be irrelevant for Europe future maritime interaction. I do hope F125 can shown flexibility for more peer to peer scenario, and not like LCS which in the end put USN to come back building Frigates that they in early 2000 has decided to change with LCS.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/mks-180/.htm

The next class of German Frigates is certainly going to be an interesting one, considering they will be the size of a Arleigh Burke but very much centred around using Modules.

 

[kato]

Concept of early 2000 where the West think more of any maritime adversaries will come from smaller states or non state actors with limited capacities.

Concept planning always runs 20 years ahead. German Navy already has a project team laying out concepts for "F127", a replacement for the F124 class in the second half of the 2030s, with a planning horizon for operations until 2075. Initial concept study right now is basically a further enlarged MKS180 (i.e. cruiser-sized) with a midship large-scale VLS and a focus on BMD.

As far as F125 is concerned it aptly addresses certain escalations in symmetry within its intended theater of operations that occured significantly after its design, and that are an operational concern nowadays.

 

[Zoomer]

Can someone explain what is going on?
4 F125s will replace 8 F122s.
What will the 4 F126s (mks180) replace? The 4 F123s?

Germany wants to beef up its defense firms with pandemic relief funds

Companies stand to benefit from an $11 billion cash infusion amid a new tone in Berlin of using military spending as an explicit tool for economic recovery.

www.defensenews.com

This says that they will buy 2 more F126s. So I suspect they want to replace the 3 F124s with 2 more F126s, right?

Fregatte F 127 – Die nächste Generation der Luftverteidigung

Die F 124 Fregatten der Marine sollen in Zukunft durch die „Next Generation Frigate“ ersetzt werden. Diese auch als F 127 bezeichneten Schiffe eröffnen zusätzlich Optionen zur Abdeckung weiterer NATO-Forderungen im Bereich der seegestützten Abwehr ballistischer und hypersonischer Flugkörper.

esut.de

But this says they want F127s to replace the F124s. I'm confused. Plz help

 

[Redlands18]

Can someone explain what is going on?
4 F125s will replace 8 F122s.
What will the 4 F126s (mks180) replace? The 4 F123s?

Germany wants to beef up its defense firms with pandemic relief funds

Companies stand to benefit from an $11 billion cash infusion amid a new tone in Berlin of using military spending as an explicit tool for economic recovery.

www.defensenews.com

This says that they will buy 2 more F126s. So I suspect they want to replace the 3 F124s with 2 more F126s, right?

Fregatte F 127 – Die nächste Generation der Luftverteidigung

Die F 124 Fregatten der Marine sollen in Zukunft durch die „Next Generation Frigate“ ersetzt werden. Diese auch als F 127 bezeichneten Schiffe eröffnen zusätzlich Optionen zur Abdeckung weiterer NATO-Forderungen im Bereich der seegestützten Abwehr ballistischer und hypersonischer Flugkörper.

esut.de

But this says they want F127s to replace the F124s. I'm confused. Plz help

As @kato says above, concept planning is always 20 years ahead, so what has probably happened is the German Navy has changed what it wants in its Frigates, don’t forget that the F-122/123s were Cold War designs and now they are going down a different path. The actual numbers of Ships in service is not changing just the type. Its not that unusual the RAN replaced 3 DDGs with 3 Patrol Frigates in the late 90s-early 2000s and then refitted other Frigates to do the AAW role.

 

[Todjaeger]

Can someone explain what is going on?
4 F125s will replace 8 F122s.
What will the 4 F126s (mks180) replace? The 4 F123s?

Germany wants to beef up its defense firms with pandemic relief funds

Companies stand to benefit from an $11 billion cash infusion amid a new tone in Berlin of using military spending as an explicit tool for economic recovery.

www.defensenews.com

This says that they will buy 2 more F126s. So I suspect they want to replace the 3 F124s with 2 more F126s, right?

Fregatte F 127 – Die nächste Generation der Luftverteidigung

Die F 124 Fregatten der Marine sollen in Zukunft durch die „Next Generation Frigate“ ersetzt werden. Diese auch als F 127 bezeichneten Schiffe eröffnen zusätzlich Optionen zur Abdeckung weiterer NATO-Forderungen im Bereich der seegestützten Abwehr ballistischer und hypersonischer Flugkörper.

esut.de

But this says they want F127s to replace the F124s. I'm confused. Plz help

In reading the two articles, they seem to be talking about two completely different purchases. The F124/Sachsen-class frigates are air defence frigates which are planned to serve until the early to mid-2030's, with the expectation that the F127, which is also intended to be an air defence frigate, will start replacing them in the 2030's.

The MKS180 OTOH seems intended to provide highly capable GP frigate, meaning that unlike dedicated ASW or area air defence vessels which tend to be very good in their specialty, but have minimal or no capability outside of that, the MKS is intended to be capable in self and area air defence, ASW ops, and anti-surface/asymmetric warfare. Given the time frames involved, including the fact that the F123/Brandenburg-class frigates are nearly 30 years old and will be due for replacement soon, I suspect Germany realized that there was/is a greater need for vessels which are overall more capable. I do not foresee Germany decommissioning any of the three F124/Sachsen-class frigates early.