Royal New Zealand Air Force

[htbrst]

An audio report on the cost of running the Hercules and Orions in their old age based on OIA requests. Ron Mark (defense minister) saying a decision needs to be made on purchasing the P-8's before the end of July.

NZDF spends nearly $360m on old aircraft fleet

The end of July is getting pretty close...

 

[MrConservative]

An audio report on the cost of running the Hercules and Orions in their old age based on OIA requests. Ron Mark (defense minister) saying a decision needs to be made on purchasing the P-8's before the end of July.

NZDF spends nearly $360m on old aircraft fleet

The end of July is getting pretty close...

Shane Jones has $3 Billion to spray around on pork barrelling on his Provincial Growth Fund trying to buy NZ First a Northland seat which would have been more than enough to buy both a new FAMC and FASC fleet.

 

[ngatimozart]

An audio report on the cost of running the Hercules and Orions in their old age based on OIA requests. Ron Mark (defense minister) saying a decision needs to be made on purchasing the P-8's before the end of July.

NZDF spends nearly $360m on old aircraft fleet

The end of July is getting pretty close...

I won't hold my breath and I'm not optimistic that the P-8 will be acquired. This govt has to many hangovers from uncle Helen's govts of 1999 - 2008.

 

[RegR]

I remember MR C putting up the RFI? and the nice to have additions(have been trying to find that information again) that the AAR was a nice to have ability for RNZAF within the FAMC and indeed the overall enablers KC-130J(Harvest Hawk) can become a very flexible tool from AAR to CAS/overwatch to just simple MPA duties to NZG.

My one concern is if RNZAF was to make use of these capabilities and the vision by government is a one for one replacement, with such a small pool of aircraft(5) and the rotary fleet cannot make use of the additional capabilities and the most likely avenue for transporting is via RNZN is it worth the additional expenditure over a vanilla aircraft?

If we did go with the C130 option I would rather see a smaller number of spec Js such as the touted SF model as like you say would it be worth the outlay for us vs the actual use we would/could afford them.

I would prefer a mix of say 2 C130J-SFs fitted with AAR and spec ops capability and 4 C130J-30s refuel capable to also somewhat compensate for capacity/capability as originally found we ideally needed 8 C130s for tasks in terms of availability, coverage, upgrades etc, issues we have found with the current fleet. Obviously one more of each model would be even better and get us to the reccommended 8 but I'm being modest and as you say 5 is (proven to be) abit short.

Not sure if our NH90s could be retrofitted for AAR capabilty or any possible future AC such as C295 plus ground ops but the ability to refuel (or be refuelled) is definately another feather that should'nt be discounted for either us or our allies.

Although I would still like to see an A400 fleet for the added benefits they would give us in terms of lift the issues plagueing the project could likely prove too risky an option for our government to consider at the moment plus the fact we would be lucky to get even 1 for 1 for the price.

 

[ngatimozart]

Looks like the P-8A could be on the way. The Minister, Ron Mark, reckons he has a work around on some treasury rules that will make the acquisition easier. Apparently he is going to recommend to the Cabinet that the P-8A be acquired. His paper is to be submitted to Cabinet next week.

'Mark suggested yesterday that a way had been found around the Treasury accounting
convention, and that could be applied not only to the P8s but other aircraft and ships that
are called for in the $20 billion Defence capability plan.
"I am very happy with where we have got to in this budget.
" I am looking forward to the next two because I know what is coming down the line.
“And I’m very comfortable with the conversations I have with the Prime Minister, the
Minister of Finance and the Deputy Prime Minister, about how we are going to address
some of these big ticket items which might actually, as the Minister of Finance has said,
require a change in convention as to how we account for these things.” ' ​

I will not hold my breath, but I hope that it does work out as planned.

 

[Milne Bay]

Looks like the P-8A could be on the way. The Minister, Ron Mark, reckons he has a work around on some treasury rules that will make the acquisition easier. Apparently he is going to recommend to the Cabinet that the P-8A be acquired. His paper is to be submitted to Cabinet next week.

'Mark suggested yesterday that a way had been found around the Treasury accounting
convention, and that could be applied not only to the P8s but other aircraft and ships that
are called for in the $20 billion Defence capability plan.
"I am very happy with where we have got to in this budget.
" I am looking forward to the next two because I know what is coming down the line.
“And I’m very comfortable with the conversations I have with the Prime Minister, the
Minister of Finance and the Deputy Prime Minister, about how we are going to address
some of these big ticket items which might actually, as the Minister of Finance has said,
require a change in convention as to how we account for these things.” ' ​

I will not hold my breath, but I hope that it does work out as planned.

This does indeed look promising.
The P8 is such an obvious choice (for me at least) for the NZ government to make as it will create some synergies with the RAAF in performing essentially the same role. Its networking capabilities should open up a whole new world of information sharing and target prosecution for NZ.
I notice also that ships are mentioned here. Are they talking Anzac replacements or something else?
MB

 

[MrConservative]

Looks like the P-8A could be on the way. The Minister, Ron Mark, reckons he has a work around on some treasury rules that will make the acquisition easier. Apparently he is going to recommend to the Cabinet that the P-8A be acquired. His paper is to be submitted to Cabinet next week.

'Mark suggested yesterday that a way had been found around the Treasury accounting
convention, and that could be applied not only to the P8s but other aircraft and ships that
are called for in the $20 billion Defence capability plan.
"I am very happy with where we have got to in this budget.
" I am looking forward to the next two because I know what is coming down the line.
“And I’m very comfortable with the conversations I have with the Prime Minister, the
Minister of Finance and the Deputy Prime Minister, about how we are going to address
some of these big ticket items which might actually, as the Minister of Finance has said,
require a change in convention as to how we account for these things.” ' ​

I will not hold my breath, but I hope that it does work out as planned.

Winston will be chairing the Cabinet meeting as acting PM so that maybe a positive. The P-8 is TINA and the informed choice of everyone who knows what they are talking about.

I am pleased that the straight jacket of Treasury funding rules could possibly change. Pragmatism has to be considered - those rules maybe applicable when a Govt department is replacing a motor vehicle fleet every 70000 km's but generational big ticket acquisitions aligned to national security have to be treated as an entirely different subset.

Note that OH will be their new home if the P-8 is acquired. That will leave just 40 Sqd and 6 Sqd at WP which does leave it as questionable whether the RNZAF should remain there. That the land is freed up for housing and an air movements base at AIA is set up alongside the new 2nd runway there by 2025. 40 Squadron also go to OH and 6 Sqd to a RNZAF precinct at AIA.

 

[MrConservative]

But are they prepared to pay the premium, considering what happened with the Anzac build and also in light that the kiwis have dumped the MK41.

Folks

This is a RNZAF not a RNZN thread so ask and answer on the RNZN or NZDF thread.

 

[ngatimozart]

Note that OH will be their new home if the P-8 is acquired. That will leave just 40 Sqd and 6 Sqd at WP which does leave it as questionable whether the RNZAF should remain there. That the land is freed up for housing and an air movements base at AIA is set up alongside the new 2nd runway there by 2025. 40 Squadron also go to OH and 6 Sqd to a RNZAF precinct at AIA.

But if WP is sold will the money go back to Defence or will it just end up in the consolidated account?

 

[ngatimozart]

Folks

This is a RNZAF not a RNZN thread so ask and answer on the RNZN of NZDF thread.

I've moved the posts over to the RNZN thread.

 

[Milne Bay]

Folks

This is a RNZAF not a RNZN thread so ask and answer on the RNZN of NZDF thread.

Sorry about that - I think I de-railed the conversation..
P8's will be a good choice for RNZAF
MB

 

[ngatimozart]

Sorry about that - I think I de-railed the conversation..
P8's will be a good choice for RNZAF
MB

No probs. All sorted.

 

[MrConservative]

But if WP is sold will the money go back to Defence or will it just end up in the consolidated account?

The sale process would be overseen by LINZ as per the Statutes and I believe the monies goes back to the Crown. Whether that is placed in the consolidated account I am not sure.

 

[recce.k1]

Radio NZ has reported today that Singapore has been exempted (along with Australia) from the Coalition Government's "overseas buyers' ban", with changes being made to the Overseas Investment Amendment Bill. Radio NZ states "Australian and Singapore citizens and residents would therefore be treated the same as New Zealand citizens and permanent residents, for the purposes of the foreign buyer ban."

The reason why I have posted this was because when I heard this I also recalled a Politik article from last April in which the author (respected senior journalist Richard Harman) wrote "there has been a standoff with Singapore since October last year over the Government’s proposed ban on foreign house buyers" (October was when the new Coalition Govt was sworn in) and this appeared to be delaying the agreement between Singapore and NZ to base some of their F-15SG multi-role fighter aircraft in NZ.

Incidentally Politik featured a more comprehensive article yesterday (prior to the NZG announcement today) on this very issue: "A plan to base a Singaporean air force jet fighter squadron at Ohakea appears to have stalled under the Labour Government".

However from what has been reported today from Radio NZ suggests that Singapore's investment concerns have been resolved, hopefully paving the way forward for an announcement soon on whether Singapore's F-15SG's will be based in NZ (or not).

Note though from that second Politik article link (yesterday's article), the DefMin states "... there is more work to do", so perhaps an announcement may still be some weeks away.

I think the concern that Politik speculates about "It's not clear why the coalition Government is reluctant to progress the Ohakea proposal. It might be objections to having a fighter squadron based in New Zealand, it might simply be the economic issues that Mark talked about", personally I don't think objections to having an overseas fighter squadron is the issue (they are not as ideological as the previous Labour Govt, who were ex-1960's protest movement era politicians), more like the issue are new infrastructure costs to be found (in the short term), however I wonder if NZ First succeeds in gaining Cabinet approval for the P-8 purchase then perhaps that forms a piece of the infrastructure development puzzle for Ohakea airbase (for both the P-8 and F-15SG's). I guess we shall have wait and see how things pan out, but potentially things are looking somewhat more positive albeit one more hurdle to face.

 

[Sentry]

The PLAAF IL-76 landed at Whenuapai just after 11:00 this morning. I don't know when it took off again but landed back there at 15:15.
I thought it would be the IL-76, this was an engine I hadn't heard before. More of a high pitched whine than a C-17 or our 757's. The engines left more of a smoke trail that our Orions or Hercules.

 

[John Fedup]

Maybe the engines are copies of RR RB211s, I recall them being real smokers on Air Canada's L1011s, at least at startup.

 

[Gibbo]

Radio NZ has reported today that Singapore has been exempted (along with Australia) from the Coalition Government's "overseas buyers' ban", with changes being made to the Overseas Investment Amendment Bill. Radio NZ states "Australian and Singapore citizens and residents would therefore be treated the same as New Zealand citizens and permanent residents, for the purposes of the foreign buyer ban."

The reason why I have posted this was because when I heard this I also recalled a Politik article from last April in which the author (respected senior journalist Richard Harman) wrote "there has been a standoff with Singapore since October last year over the Government’s proposed ban on foreign house buyers" (October was when the new Coalition Govt was sworn in) and this appeared to be delaying the agreement between Singapore and NZ to base some of their F-15SG multi-role fighter aircraft in NZ.

Incidentally Politik featured a more comprehensive article yesterday (prior to the NZG announcement today) on this very issue: "A plan to base a Singaporean air force jet fighter squadron at Ohakea appears to have stalled under the Labour Government".

However from what has been reported today from Radio NZ suggests that Singapore's investment concerns have been resolved, hopefully paving the way forward for an announcement soon on whether Singapore's F-15SG's will be based in NZ (or not).

Note though from that second Politik article link (yesterday's article), the DefMin states "... there is more work to do", so perhaps an announcement may still be some weeks away.

I think the concern that Politik speculates about "It's not clear why the coalition Government is reluctant to progress the Ohakea proposal. It might be objections to having a fighter squadron based in New Zealand, it might simply be the economic issues that Mark talked about", personally I don't think objections to having an overseas fighter squadron is the issue (they are not as ideological as the previous Labour Govt, who were ex-1960's protest movement era politicians), more like the issue are new infrastructure costs to be found (in the short term), however I wonder if NZ First succeeds in gaining Cabinet approval for the P-8 purchase then perhaps that forms a piece of the infrastructure development puzzle for Ohakea airbase (for both the P-8 and F-15SG's). I guess we shall have wait and see how things pan out, but potentially things are looking somewhat more positive albeit one more hurdle to face.

Yeah progress on this is hard to gauge but I suspect there is a very high emphasis on confidentiality in regards to negotiations with Singapore, along with the above mentioned 'spat' and our change of Govt, all throwing many curve balls up. A couple of things bug me (1) Mark Mitchell saying the details were known a year ago... is this just the expected opposition 'dig' or true & therefore a reflection this Govt is re-considering...who knows!?! (2) The talk that this is a big benefit to Singapore... as much to say they benefit more than we do... they could go elsewhere & the Manawatu would miss a big economic boost. It comes across to me as a rather arrogant comment that I wouldn't be saying in earshot of the Singaporeans given the current (apparent) frosty-ness of the relationship! Maybe NZ Govt don't feel we have as much to gain and are less inclined to proceed!?! ... just grey-matter exercise at this point!

The Greens certainly won't be supporting something like this... Labour isn't probably opposed in principle, unless they have factions scrapping it out behind closed doors, - or maybe the Govt really is just making sure it stacks up. When you think about it this is a very substantial commitment for both Govt's to make... I suspect this will be some many months off a decision yet.

If NZ does sign for P8A's then that will have a bearing on investment at Ohakea but neither should preclude the other. I wouldn't be surprised if Singapore wanted their own 'corner' of the airbase to build an apron etc & allow some separation of ground activities. If the P8A's do eventuate they'll most likely take the old No3 Sqn hangar site (expect a new hangar).

 

[Rob c]

Yeah progress on this is hard to gauge but I suspect there is a very high emphasis on confidentiality in regards to negotiations with Singapore, along with the above mentioned 'spat' and our change of Govt, all throwing many curve balls up. A couple of things bug me (1) Mark Mitchell saying the details were known a year ago... is this just the expected opposition 'dig' or true & therefore a reflection this Govt is re-considering...who knows!?! (2) The talk that this is a big benefit to Singapore... as much to say they benefit more than we do... they could go elsewhere & the Manawatu would miss a big economic boost. It comes across to me as a rather arrogant comment that I wouldn't be saying in earshot of the Singaporeans given the current (apparent) frosty-ness of the relationship! Maybe NZ Govt don't feel we have as much to gain and are less inclined to proceed!?! ... just grey-matter exercise at this point!

The Greens certainly won't be supporting something like this... Labour isn't probably opposed in principle, unless they have factions scrapping it out behind closed doors, - or maybe the Govt really is just making sure it stacks up. When you think about it this is a very substantial commitment for both Govt's to make... I suspect this will be some many months off a decision yet.

If NZ does sign for P8A's then that will have a bearing on investment at Ohakea but neither should preclude the other. I wouldn't be surprised if Singapore wanted their own 'corner' of the airbase to build an apron etc & allow some separation of ground activities. If the P8A's do eventuate they'll most likely take the old No3 Sqn hangar site (expect a new hangar).

P 8's would comfortably fit into the concrete hangars, I would suggest that at least 3 would fit. In the 60's while at WH I have seen 2 Herks and an Orion in one, with reasonable amount of spare room.

 

[KiwiRob]

P 8's would comfortably fit into the concrete hangars, I would suggest that at least 3 would fit. In the 60's while at WH I have seen 2 Herks and an Orion in one, with reasonable amount of spare room.

The 757 and the 727's also fit inside so no problems for the 737/P8

 

[htbrst]

(Defence minister) Ron Mark is taking a proposal to purchase up to four P-8's to the "Cabinet Government Administration and Expenditure Review Committee" tomorrow which is one step before going to actual cabinet

Defence Minister Ron Mark one step closer to replacing old military planes

Defence Minister Ron Mark is one step closer to making the biggest defence procurements in recent years.

Mark will take his proposal to purchase up to four Boeing P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol planes from the United States to the Cabinet Government Administration and Expenditure Review Committee on Monday.

Once the Cabinet committee had seen the proposal, it would have to go to Cabinet, before a decision on the purchase was made. There was no set date for the proposal to go to cabinet, but Mark said that was expected to happen before the end of July.