Australian Army Discussions and Updates

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Looking at TS17 I simply cannot understand why Australia has not purchased at least a very small number of AAV'S, they go hand in hand with the LHD'S....
AS others have mentioned, it is not that simple.

There are issues of cost and manning, as others have raised (a small Army can only do so much), but the bigger issue is versatility. The AAV is only useful (for us) as a ship to shore connector - it is a way of getting small groups of infantry ashore in a tactically useful and survivable way. It has very limited utility beyond that - we don't want the AAVs going forward of the beach as they are massive, poorly armed and armoured, and don't fit in well with the way the infantry fights (in section vehicles).

Therefore there is a huge opportunity cost for the vehicles - buy AAVs and put them on the LHDs, and you are taking resources (money, people, deck space) away from more versatile platforms. As it is, we have no problems being able to put infantry on the beach, so the opportunity cost has been deemed to not be worth it.

Also important to point out, that the AAV is an ancient vehicle. It's not something we want to be investing in, and it's replacements are hardly fit for purpose yet.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
AS others have mentioned, it is not that simple.

There are issues of cost and manning, as others have raised (a small Army can only do so much), but the bigger issue is versatility. The AAV is only useful (for us) as a ship to shore connector - it is a way of getting small groups of infantry ashore in a tactically useful and survivable way. It has very limited utility beyond that - we don't want the AAVs going forward of the beach as they are massive, poorly armed and armoured, and don't fit in well with the way the infantry fights (in section vehicles).

Therefore there is a huge opportunity cost for the vehicles - buy AAVs and put them on the LHDs, and you are taking resources (money, people, deck space) away from more versatile platforms. As it is, we have no problems being able to put infantry on the beach, so the opportunity cost has been deemed to not be worth it.

Also important to point out, that the AAV is an ancient vehicle. It's not something we want to be investing in, and it's replacements are hardly fit for purpose yet.
How are things looking in terms of ship to shore and then over the beach capabilities for logistical support? Are there sufficient LARC's to haul the needed levels of supplies to where they would be needed ashore, or are the current cargo vehicles able to be deployed from the LHD's to the shore while loaded?
 

Massive

Well-Known Member
...the bigger issue is versatility. The AAV is only useful (for us) as a ship to shore connector - it is a way of getting small groups of infantry ashore in a tactically useful and survivable way. It has very limited utility beyond that...
Thanks Raven,

I find it very hard to see a strategic situation that would justify Australian troops needing armored transport across the beach.

Very niche and surely a "Survival interests" only situation - and hard to see a survival interests situation where an assault across a beach would be required.

Regards,

Massive
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Along the lines of and in addition to what others have said AAAVs are probably a nice to have rather than a necessity and even if we had the cash and personnel to spare there are higher priorities, especially as the improved amphibious capability as conceived will not be used for opposed landings. If you are not assaulting over the beach what will the vehicles actually do?

That said I can see a long term requirement for a versatile ship to shore connector, once the current acquisitions have been digested. What it should be I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is something the USMC, USN, US Army, or perhaps the UK has adopted and proven. As for who would operate it, maybe RAE, RAAC (if it turns out to be an AAAV successor), or even 2 RAR if their current role evolves, but who can tell what the ADFs requirements will be in a decade or longer.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
How are things looking in terms of ship to shore and then over the beach capabilities for logistical support? Are there sufficient LARC's to haul the needed levels of supplies to where they would be needed ashore, or are the current cargo vehicles able to be deployed from the LHD's to the shore while loaded?
Better than the likelihood of AAV's any time soon, but with our move towards much heavier armour in service, I would think a priority for ADF would be much improved LCM-1E or similar craft that will be able to handle this increased mass in higher sea states than we currently can.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Better than the likelihood of AAV's any time soon, but with our move towards much heavier armour in service, I would think a priority for ADF would be much improved LCM-1E or similar craft that will be able to handle this increased mass in higher sea states than we currently can.
What is the likely hood of actually being able to get an LCM to do that? Or do we bite the bullet and go for the LCU?
 

t68

Well-Known Member
What is the likely hood of actually being able to get an LCM to do that? Or do we bite the bullet and go for the LCU?
If they know they are going to do a landing over the beach, would it be more feasabile to use something like an LSV Frank S Besson type vessel for the heavy lift and making more room on the LHD, its also something that can also be used to free up the LHD & LPA regionally around the islands.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
If they know they are going to do a landing over the beach, would it be more feasabile to use something like an LSV Frank S Besson type vessel for the heavy lift and making more room on the LHD, its also something that can also be used to free up the LHD & LPA regionally around the islands.
And this discussion has been had adnauseum .... great idea but the LCH replacment is not in the the current plan.

The other issue is unless you get something like the Damen LST series they will struggle to keep up with the task force.

I am a fan of the LST100 but I am under no illusions that we will see one soon.
 

Massive

Well-Known Member
... I am a fan of the LST100 but I am under no illusions that we will see one soon...
This is the right solution if that is the solution required.

Also a very flexible capability for a lot of other asks of course.

Regards,

Massive
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
What is the likely hood of actually being able to get an LCM to do that? Or do we bite the bullet and go for the LCU?
Yeah not sure, but it is plain as day our increased heavy armour capability is going to require better amphibious landing capabilities if we are going to do anything than Bushmaster (as an example) led HADR type operations.

As our leaders are so currently fund of saying we are transitioning from a light infantry force to a light (and in increasingly in most vehicle classes in reality - not so light) armoured force. The cost of that will not only be the vehicles themselves but the increased transport requirements they impose on the 'connectors'.

I am happy to be corrected but I get the strong feeling the current amphibious asset plan wasn't really talking to the LAND 400 folks when they planned our amphibious force, but rather the force in being. It's a habit we have I have observed over and over...
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
I am happy to be corrected but I get the strong feeling the current amphibious asset plan wasn't really talking to the LAND 400 folks when they planned our amphibious force, but rather the force in being. It's a habit we have I have observed over and over...
OT slightly but when did Land 400 start? From my understanding the Juan Carlos design was chosen circa 2004? if memory serves me. Did Land 400 start before or after this?

Seems to me and could be wrong my as well that we built up an amphibious capability based around 90's capabilities and only started upgrading said capabilities after the amphibious assets where decided.

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Personnel opinion if they want to keep this risk free then they will either go for LCU's aboard (Could theoretically fit 2 along with 2 LCM's) or they will revive the Heavy landing craft program and acquire some LST's. LCM's just simply too small to do what they want and trying to get one to do it will be throwing valuable, time, money and resources at a very long shot.

Oh well, Only time will tell all we can hope is that they look at past programs and utilize there lessons to work out how they will proceed.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
OT slightly but when did Land 400 start? From my understanding the Juan Carlos design was chosen circa 2004? if memory serves me. Did Land 400 start before or after this?

Seems to me and could be wrong my as well that we built up an amphibious capability based around 90's capabilities and only started upgrading said capabilities after the amphibious assets where decided.

---------

Personnel opinion if they want to keep this risk free then they will either go for LCU's aboard (Could theoretically fit 2 along with 2 LCM's) or they will revive the Heavy landing craft program and acquire some LST's. LCM's just simply too small to do what they want and trying to get one to do it will be throwing valuable, time, money and resources at a very long shot.

Oh well, Only time will tell all we can hope is that they look at past programs and utilize there lessons to work out how they will proceed.
But that refers to what my main point was. ADF talks over and over about acquiring complementary capabilities, but you see time and time again that the left hand clearly doesn't talk to the right.

If we are acquiring a future amphibious capability why would we acquire connectors designed for a previous generation of vehicles? I really don't think it takes any great intellectual leap to assume that capabilities needs will grow in future rather than lessen and plan accordingly...
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Can anyone explain the latest push by Army to only employ women? This was announced over the last few days apparently it's an attempt to raise the ratio of females in the service. In my view this is PC gone crazy, surely Army should be recruiting the best prospects be they either men or women.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
But that refers to what my main point was. ADF talks over and over about acquiring complementary capabilities, but you see time and time again that the left hand clearly doesn't talk to the right.

If we are acquiring a future amphibious capability why would we acquire connectors designed for a previous generation of vehicles? I really don't think it takes any great intellectual leap to assume that capabilities needs will grow in future rather than lessen and plan accordingly...
It appears unfortunately your correct in that the current LCM1e may not be able to carry either our current MBT or alternatively two future land 400 IFV's.Time and practise may secure a limited capacity in very calm conditions but still probably not the best or desired outcome.
My understanding is that back in the day the LCM 2000 landing craft where proving not fit for purpose during it's early days of operation off the old Kanimbla and would have been to wide for the soon to be acquired Canberra Classes docking well.
Back then a seemingly safe bet was to acquire the same landing craft that Spain had designed for it's Juan Carlos LHD.
This is seemingly both hands talking to each other after all Spain had a similar weighted MBT in the Leo 11 Mk 6 to our new Abram's and my understanding was all the appropriate questions were asked and assurances given that this new connector would do as advertised.
Our refurbished M113a4 were not in the weight category of current 25t + IFV such as your Bradley / Marder / Warrior vehicles so the immediate future looked a good mix of armoured vehicles and LHD with appropriate landing craft.

The sad current reality is that our LCM'1e may not be sufficiently future proofed to provide the weight carrying capacity for future loads. The Docking well of the Canberra class is a constant that may be a challenge in width to fit Two future LCM sized craft side by side. Our M113a4 provide no realistic deployable capacity as they are out classed for about all in harms way operations. The ASLAV are old, tired and are a light weight in this age.
To make things worse the out come of land 400 that being an in service phase 2 and 3 vehicle is still a long way away.
What puzzles me is that there is an acceptance that this is OK and there is no need for an immediate fix. If a commensurate situation was within the RAAF I would guess that they would have the Sales, diplomatic and professional skills to make government understand the gravity of the situation.
Army seem to have a generational culture of acceptance that our current situation is adequate which of course is fine if you aspire to just send light infantry / special forces type of groups to your Afghanistan type of mission.
But then again didn't the Dutch send MBT's, self propelled artillery and attack helicopters to Uruzgan?
I feel Army needs to provide government more options and much sooner than the fulfilment of Land 4000
Maybe we need to look at a quick armoured upgrade to the M113's, fast track phase 2 of land 400,up the numbers of Abrams and put a lot of energy into making the LCM1e work or find a quick alternative.


Regards S
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Can anyone explain the latest push by Army to only employ women? This was announced over the last few days apparently it's an attempt to raise the ratio of females in the service. In my view this is PC gone crazy, surely Army should be recruiting the best prospects be they either men or women.
This article references the attempt to increase the female ratio in the ADF which I gather is hot button topic in OZ at the moment.

Canadian study about female shopping habits could aid Australian military recruiting | Ottawa Citizen
 
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vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
All for increasing female numbers, and if physical fitness is the issue holding them back then implement a program to give them a few months to get there fitness up to scratch but they should not be ruling out any gender be it male, female or neutral.

PC should only go so far as to give them 'assistance' to reach the physical requirements, It should not drop them (requirements) and block entry for any one else.
 

foxdemon

Member
Here's the article:

http://http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/australian-army-bans-male-recruits-to-get-female-numbers-up/news-story/69ee9dc1d4f8836e9cca7ca2e3e5680a


A number of other papers are running the story also.


Objectively, men are generally a better choice for putting in harm's way as their loss won't impact the population's replacement potential.. Only a limited number of men are needed to make babies but every woman lost reduces the potential replacement capacity. This is why traditionally men take the risks to defend the tribe. However, in today's circumstances very few people from the total population are needed on the front line, thus the matter is moot. We could have an ADF composed entirely of women in theory.

But why? It seems like some people have become ideological fashion causalities. The result of their obsession with contriving an ideological outcome rather than letting natural processes work through the system, is the alienation of many people. This diminishes the esteem the establishment is held in and impacts moral. It can also lead to political instability. I do not think this approach has been well thought out.

Regrettably the thought behind such policies is common amongst Australia's power elites and indeed the national elites of other western countries. I could go into great detail in explaining why this is so. But this is supposed to be a defence forum. Suffice to say the first priority of power elites is to maintain political stability in order to preserve a status quote that delivers them their position of privilege. Western power elites seem to take their status for granted and so they think it doesn't matter how many commoners they alienate. But then it was that sort of arrogance that brought Trump to power. Will they ever learn?
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Suffice to say the first priority of power elites is to maintain political stability in order to preserve a status quote that delivers them their position of privilege. Western power elites seem to take their status for granted and so they think it doesn't matter how many commoners they alienate. But then it was that sort of arrogance that brought Trump to power. Will they ever learn?
Agree, and this is why Canada has that pathetic excuse for a PM, junior.:eek:
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Are we now doing politics in this thread? The above comment does not contribute to the subject matter.
My original question was apolitical, trying to understand the Australian Army's rationale for making such a decision.
If it was simply based on gender diversity it needs to be condemned. If it was based on recruiting women to fill jobs at which women have proven to be more adept, it needs to be explained.
 
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