If PAF wanted a brand new multi role fighter and Money was tight. What's the current price tag for a used MIG 29 coming from Russia. I know the AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-kuo is a good option for PAF because it fits their LIFT and lead in fighter aircraft. For long term, what is the going price for a used MIG-29 & SU-27.
Philippine Air Force Discussions and Updates
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We've been having this discussion for ages! Though we aren't privy to whats happening behind the scenes in the Philippines DoD, we can, at present make a rough estimate as to what it can or can't afford. The PAFs top brass are obviously well aware as to what it should get and the problems they will have in operating fighters again but the choice ultimately depends on its poltical masters. As has been pointed out here before, the main issue is the PAF receiving the funds, to create an infractructure to support new fighters - what fighters it gets is secondary.
Yes, there are plenty of used Mig-29s that can be sourced, the same goes with Su-27s, but I think that must of us are of the opnion that the PAF will not andshould not go down this route, due to a number of factors. Buying used Fulcrums may be cheaper but what will the long term operating costs be? As to buying used Mirage 2000s or other used Western aircraft, things to bear in mind would again be the operating costs, how maintainence intesive these aircraft will be and the level of upgrades that will be needed. Bear in mind the PAF has not operated supersonic fighters for a number of years now.
Yes, there are plenty of used Mig-29s that can be sourced, the same goes with Su-27s, but I think that must of us are of the opnion that the PAF will not andshould not go down this route, due to a number of factors. Buying used Fulcrums may be cheaper but what will the long term operating costs be? As to buying used Mirage 2000s or other used Western aircraft, things to bear in mind would again be the operating costs, how maintainence intesive these aircraft will be and the level of upgrades that will be needed. Bear in mind the PAF has not operated supersonic fighters for a number of years now.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
It does seem like we are back on this carousel again, does it not...
For those wishing the PAF (or any other service for that matter) would just go ahead an purchase a particular piece of kit, there are a number of factors involved, especially if budgets/funding/resources are tight.
- Service capabilities
- Purchase cost
- In-service cost
- Through-life cost
There is no point in the PAF purchasing a multi-role fighter if they cannot acquire sufficient numbers to provide a useful capability. Similarly, there is no point to do so if they cannot afford to commit to the on-going operating, maintenance and upgrade costs to sustain the fighter capability. Again, such a purchase also makes no sense if the PAF will not have the appropriate base facilities and training stream to provide appropriate pilots, ground crews and operating areas for the fighters.
Lastly, even if the PAF can afford to do all the above, if the cost of such a purchase means that the AFP has to forgo other, more critical and/or useful purchases, then a fighter purchase again makes no sense.
Any significant equipment purchase has to be done as part of a rather complicated matrix of cost (both initial & on-going), need, cost if need not met, and cost/need relative to other cost/needs.
-Cheers
The PAF will announce the winners of the award contracts for the 12 brand new LIFT aircrafts, 8 light transport/MPA and 3 medium transport/attack helicopters before the end of July ...
DEFENSE STUDIES: PAF is Ordering a Number of Brand New Aircraft this Year
DEFENSE STUDIES: PAF is Ordering a Number of Brand New Aircraft this Year
I will bet ya, that PAF will end up with the T/A-50 & F/A-50. My question with that is, dose the T/A-50 & F/A-50 have the capability to refuel in the air, if PAF want to come play at Red Flag? What's the fly away cost for the T/A-50 & F/A-50 as oppose to the YAK-130 & M-346. Would you call a T/A-50 & F/A-50 a pocket version F-16. What is the Pros and cons of PAF getting a LIFT as oppose to going to the MRF route like the Swedes JAS-39 gripen or getting a used Mirage 2000.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
I get the impression that you do not realize the difference between a LIFT and MRF. A LIFT is a Lead-in Fighter Trainer. As such, it is a jet trainer, which may have some air to air and/or attack capability. They generally have the air handling capabilities similar to frontline fighter jets, and they may (or may not be, depends on aircraft) be capable of going supersonic. LIFT aircraft are generally purchased and operated to skill an air force's potential fighter pilots in aircraft handling so that they can effectively operate the frontline fighters their respective nations' utilize.
The T/A-50 is an advanced LIFT, the F/A-50 is a lightweight fighter/attack version of the LIFT.
A MRF is a multi-role fighter. A LIFT would be used to raise the skills of an aircraft's aircrew sufficiently (and at a lower cost) so that they can effectively operate their MRF.
The way most nations handling fighter training is to start out with basic flight training using a low powered piston or prop airplane. From there pilots generally transition either to a jet trainer or an advanced prop airplane. Pilots that were transitioned into a jet trainer then either move onto a LIFT or whatever fighter jet they are expected to operate. Pilots that transitioned to advanced props then either transition to jet trainers or a LIFT. If they transition to a jet trainer, their next spot will either be a LIFT or a fighter jet as mentioned above. Once pilots are transitioned into a LIFT, their next spot will be in their fighter jet.
Given the lack of recent fast jet ops by the PAF, it would be more economical to take things slowly and build up a cadre of trained pilots and ground crew before standing up a MRF.
-Cheers
So would PAF be getting two versions the T/A-50 and the F/A-50 or just a single version.[Mod Edit: Your bet that the T/A-50 will win in your prior post was hasty and ill-conceived. This is because negotiations are still ongoing between the Philippines and with the bidders (namely, Yak-130, Aero L 159, T/A-50, and M-346). It is premature and presumptious of you to assume that the T/A-50 is will win or is preferred.]
Does the T/A-50 have the range ore20Air to Air refueling capability. [Mod Edit: No, the Philippine air force does not posses any current air-to-air refueling capability nor are they likely to aquire this capability any time soon (given that they can only manage to operate 1x C-130H, currently). As previously posted in this thread:-
"Air force spokesman Miguel Ernesto Okol said the military fleet was in dire straits, backing up a 2010 government audit that found only 91 of the 393 aircraft were 'full mission capable'."
There is photographic evidence of C-130s (with only 1 working and another underdoing refurbishment - the others have rotted away), S-211's (if I'm not wrong less than 5 operational) and Broncos, literally rotting in the sun, rather than being treated as assets. ]
What about the future for a MRF such as a used MIG-29, SU-27 or a used JAS-39 Gripen for PAF, dose anyone see the prospect of that happening in the next 15 to 20 yrs. [Mod Edit: What a load of buy this or buy that rubbish in your reply to Todjaeger (a variation of your spam like replies to both fretburner & STURM). I hope you realise that they are an air force that don't even operate LIFTs. And until they do so, they will not have the expertise to operate MRFs. In 2011, the Philippine Air Force said that the "trainers will need a ground attack and basic air-interception capability. The service sees the new fleet as a stepping stone to its long-term goal of acquiring more advanced fighters." This is a country that elected not to operate fighters by retiring their F-5s without replacement in 2005 and consequently suffered a loss of capability. With US help they ONLY recently acquired the capability to release Paveways laser-guided bombs from their Broncos (and are looking to retain this capability with the LIFT/SAA plaform purchase).
Stick to facts about their air force and do not convert this to a fantasy and "what if" thread.]
I also have to ask, would a C-295 AEW aircraft be a good fit for them.[Mod Edit: No, they are an air force that does not have fighters currently.
Why are you talking about AEWs in context of this thread? What possible relevance has AEWs got to do with the Philippines (when they lack ground based radars to sufficently monitor their air space)?
In capability maturity terms, they are in kindergarden. Why are you talking about tertiary capabilities (for an air force that is so much in need of improvement)? How can a discussion of AEWs be relevant in this thread, at this juncture? ]
BTW, the above questions are rhetorical in nature and are there here to assist you in engaging your brain (see below). Do not post a reply to them.
[Mod Edit: @Zhaow, 3rd warning issued for posting rubbish, refusing to read and failure to take note of the prior warning issued to you a week ago (and quoted above). Recently, the Mod Team had to close a thread started by you (because you simply refused to listen to everyone posting in that thread). In the last few posts, you have been given good advice by other members of the forum about the issues at hand in this thread. For goodness sake, this time round:-
(i) read the thread you are posting in;
(ii) try to understand what has been posted for your benefit; and
(iii) engage your brain before posting.
Meet these standards or stop posting.
The Mod Team's patience with you is NOT INFINITE. Please note that you will face administrative sanctions for the next spam like post. No other warning will be issued.]
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The PAF is on track to acquire more air assets before the end of 2012 according to it's spokesperson Colonel Miguel Ernesto Okol , the contract for 12 new LIFT aircrafts will be awarded next month while an additional 4 brand new W-3A Sokols CUH and 2 refurbished C-130H's will be deliver this year ...
PAF to buy more air assets before end of 2012 | Philippine News for the Global Filipino: Positive News Media
PZL - Agusta Westland
PAF to buy more air assets before end of 2012 | Philippine News for the Global Filipino: Positive News Media
PZL - Agusta Westland
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The PAF commanding general Lt. Dela Cruz recently announced that it will acquire additional air assets to beef up it's capability which includes 10 attack helicopters from France , 18 trainer aircrafts and an additional 21 UH-1H Hueys of which all has been approved for purchase ...
PIA | Philippine Information Agency | PAF Chief visits Cebu as part of 65th founding anniversary
PIA | Philippine Information Agency | PAF Chief visits Cebu as part of 65th founding anniversary
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Any idea what model of French helo is referred to? And brand new?
There was no specific model mention but there are only a limited number of attack helicopters from France and the most famous one being the Eurocopter Tiger (EC-665) while the other one is the Aerospatiale Gazzelle SA-341 ...
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Somehow I doubt the PAF will be getting the Tiger; new ones start off at more than $30M apiece from what I've read. Perhaps it's something like the Gazelle if it's still being manufactured?
Why do we bother with second-hand equipment? [Mod Edit: Why not? Especially if it represents good value (and the Philippine navy just acquired a couple of 2nd hand ex-USCG vessels).]
I'm told that the Philippines has enough money to buy brand new. And if we really think second-hand equipments are going to help us, then why not the Perry class frigate? It stood a better chance against the Chinese if we came to blows. [Mod Edit: Really? What planet do you live on? The next thing you are going to tell us is that the earth is flat. Go read up on the sorry state of the Philippine Navy and their budget. Since the Philippine modernization program began in 1995, the budget released for the 15 year program amounted to only US$740 million (P32 billion). There is a thread on the Philippine Navy that documents some of their progress. And then read up on the PLAN ship building plans and progress.
General warning to all in this thread: Kindly follow the forum rules and do not spam this thread with wish list nonsense, as there are a number of posts here that are lacking in thought and quality (a laundry list of what to buy without regard to national defence budgets and prior track record are frowned upon). If you have an opinion feel free to share it but remember to provide sources for your facts, where possible. ]
Hope it will be a brand-new radar system that would be complemented by mobile anti-air vehicles hopefully with MIM-23 I-Hawk or a better SAM system.
It would also probably be better to have an AESA land-based radar system. [Mod Edit: Learn to do some research and cite some sources before posting. It would do wonders for the quality of discussion on this thread. Develop a real interest in the matters you post about and read more before posting.
This is you last warning on the quality of your posts. Do not turn this into a fantasy wishlist. Fantasy wishlist participants do not fare well in this forum.]
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
T-50 for PAF
From Philipines ABS-CBN on line:http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/nation/06/19/12/air-force-acquire-12-jet-fighters-korea
Hope nobody still asking why PAF go with LIFT first. Too many discussion already mentioned this matter. PAF need LIFT because they need to go rebuilding their basic again, while in the same time providing basic light-fighters capability. LIFT is the most economical way to do that.
From Philipines ABS-CBN on line:http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/nation/06/19/12/air-force-acquire-12-jet-fighters-korea
Seems the Koreans lobby able to withstand latest Italian onslaught on gaining Philippines armed purchase contract. If this coming true, it will be the second export for TA-50 and the first win against M-346 (in Indonesia TA-50 win against YAK-130 and not M-346).
Hope nobody still asking why PAF go with LIFT first. Too many discussion already mentioned this matter. PAF need LIFT because they need to go rebuilding their basic again, while in the same time providing basic light-fighters capability. LIFT is the most economical way to do that.
There has been no official confirmation of this report yet from the DND but if it's accurate then this will be formally announce next month as expected ...
http://view.koreaherald.com/kh/view.php?ud=20120620001048&cpv=0
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The PAF will have a state of the art US made land based defense radars operational by next year and an additional 9 brand new aircrafts from Brazil and Italy will be acquired besides the 12 TA-50 LIFT advanced jets from South Korea ...
The Exciting Centennial of Philippine Aviation: US made defense radar to be operational next year
The Exciting Centennial of Philippine Aviation: US made defense radar to be operational next year
The PAF will celebrate it's 65th founding anniversary today with a parade that will include aerial fly-bys of various air assets that are available reviving a tradition for the 1st time in 15 years , spokesperson colonel Okol said...
Philippine Air Force to mount show in the sky on anniversary | Inquirer News
Philippine Air Force to mount show in the sky on anniversary | Inquirer News
Mystery solved. It's been reported that the PAF will be getting 10 new Fennec light helicopters from France.
PAF drops JDAMs vs Abu Sayyaf
Congratulations to the Philippine Air Force for a job well done. Politically astute to let the PAF carry out the attack to mute any criticisms. The new jets and Super Tucanos will be a big advance over the OV-10 Broncos that carried out the attacks so we can look forward to more surgical strikes once the new aircraft enter the inventory. The US can remain silently in the background providing the esential tracking and targetting functions.
Philippines using US smart bombs | Sun.Star
Philippines using US smart bombs
Wednesday, March 21, 2012
MANILA — Concealed by the night sky, the two aging Philippine Air Force planes unleashed a surprise high-tech weapon: US satellite-guided bombs that whizzed down with deadly precision toward a long-elusive terrorist suspect and two other top radicals dozing with their men in Jolo Island's jungle.
The use of smart bombs, confirmed to The Associated Press by four senior Philippine security officials, marks a new chapter in the long-running battle against an al-Qaeda-linked movement in the southern Philippines, viewed by the US as a key front in the global effort to keep terrorists at bay.
Successive blasts shattered a hillside rebel encampment of Abu Sayyaf..Thermal imaging from a US drone, described by two of the senior officials, depicted the aftermath: Several slain gunmen lay amid a clutter of destroyed trees, huts and tents, while survivors pulled away the dead and wounded in the pitch darkness...
Philippine Defense Secretary Voltaire Gazmin praised "the carefully planned precision attack" in a statement days after the strike. The well-planned assault, he said, avoided the military casualties often incurred in ground raids.
"We were able to trace that they were all together at a certain time so that was the time to hit," Gazmin said. "So we took off early morning and bombed them, delivering four bombs. We were successful."
The Philippine military announced that a top Malaysian terrorist suspect, Zulkifli bin Hir, also known as Marwan, was among the dead, along with Singaporean martial arts instructor Muhamda Ali —whose rebel name is Muawiyah — and Abu Sayyaf commander Gumbahali Umbra Jumdail.Between nine to 15 militants were killed in the barrage but others quickly dragged away the dead, making it difficult to confirm who was killed, according to military officials.
Congratulations to the Philippine Air Force for a job well done. Politically astute to let the PAF carry out the attack to mute any criticisms. The new jets and Super Tucanos will be a big advance over the OV-10 Broncos that carried out the attacks so we can look forward to more surgical strikes once the new aircraft enter the inventory. The US can remain silently in the background providing the esential tracking and targetting functions.
Philippines using US smart bombs | Sun.Star
Philippines using US smart bombs
Wednesday, March 21, 2012
MANILA — Concealed by the night sky, the two aging Philippine Air Force planes unleashed a surprise high-tech weapon: US satellite-guided bombs that whizzed down with deadly precision toward a long-elusive terrorist suspect and two other top radicals dozing with their men in Jolo Island's jungle.
The use of smart bombs, confirmed to The Associated Press by four senior Philippine security officials, marks a new chapter in the long-running battle against an al-Qaeda-linked movement in the southern Philippines, viewed by the US as a key front in the global effort to keep terrorists at bay.
Successive blasts shattered a hillside rebel encampment of Abu Sayyaf..Thermal imaging from a US drone, described by two of the senior officials, depicted the aftermath: Several slain gunmen lay amid a clutter of destroyed trees, huts and tents, while survivors pulled away the dead and wounded in the pitch darkness...
Philippine Defense Secretary Voltaire Gazmin praised "the carefully planned precision attack" in a statement days after the strike. The well-planned assault, he said, avoided the military casualties often incurred in ground raids.
"We were able to trace that they were all together at a certain time so that was the time to hit," Gazmin said. "So we took off early morning and bombed them, delivering four bombs. We were successful."
The Philippine military announced that a top Malaysian terrorist suspect, Zulkifli bin Hir, also known as Marwan, was among the dead, along with Singaporean martial arts instructor Muhamda Ali —whose rebel name is Muawiyah — and Abu Sayyaf commander Gumbahali Umbra Jumdail.Between nine to 15 militants were killed in the barrage but others quickly dragged away the dead, making it difficult to confirm who was killed, according to military officials.
1st video and recently uploaded photos of today's PAF 65th founding anniversary celebration, it's been a 'LONG TIME' since I've seen something like this and is probably a sign of things to come in the next few years for the dilapidated organization ...
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7PdKvHLY6E"]Air force celebrates 'modest' planes - YouTube[/nomedia]
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.377039219029424.89733.195218547211493&type=1
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7PdKvHLY6E"]Air force celebrates 'modest' planes - YouTube[/nomedia]
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.377039219029424.89733.195218547211493&type=1