Russian Army/Ground Forces Discussion and Updates
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Iveco LMV In Russia
Russia has apparently signed a contract with Iveco for 60 M65 Lynx vehicles. They will be delivered in knocked down kits and assembled in Voronezh. The total state defense order planned for the M65 is 1775 vehicles through 2020.
Lenta.ru:
This is a bloggers report of the testing done on the 10 Lynxes ordered earlier, and used for testing by the MoD. OAO Kamaz produced the turrets for them, and will likely provide further localized accessories and modifications for future vehicles, however it seems that Kamaz is not interested in partnering with Iveco on actual localization of the vehicles. Whether the vehicles will undergo further modification will depend on the results of experiment exploitation of the first batch, and the performance in state trials.
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - От "Ивеко" к "Ð*Ñ‹Ñи"
This is by far the most significant purchase of imported equipment by the Russian military, and it shows not only the willingness of the MoD to buy high-quality goods abroad when domestic alternatives are absent, but also shows that the purchase of these new vehicles was taken seriously, and analyzed carefully before committing to the purchase.
Russia has apparently signed a contract with Iveco for 60 M65 Lynx vehicles. They will be delivered in knocked down kits and assembled in Voronezh. The total state defense order planned for the M65 is 1775 vehicles through 2020.
Lenta.ru:
This is a bloggers report of the testing done on the 10 Lynxes ordered earlier, and used for testing by the MoD. OAO Kamaz produced the turrets for them, and will likely provide further localized accessories and modifications for future vehicles, however it seems that Kamaz is not interested in partnering with Iveco on actual localization of the vehicles. Whether the vehicles will undergo further modification will depend on the results of experiment exploitation of the first batch, and the performance in state trials.
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - От "Ивеко" к "Ð*Ñ‹Ñи"
This is by far the most significant purchase of imported equipment by the Russian military, and it shows not only the willingness of the MoD to buy high-quality goods abroad when domestic alternatives are absent, but also shows that the purchase of these new vehicles was taken seriously, and analyzed carefully before committing to the purchase.
Great news for somebody I know and every contract helps to cover the high fixed costs and to keep people employed. The region in which this plant is located is the richest of Italy, has the lowest unemployment and it is know for it's dedication to high quality. I know others of that region which have through contracts a direct stake in Sochi 2014.
Anyway it is good to see that the Russian MoD is willing to pay the price of a product not found at home. I'm sure that the testing has been rough and thorough.
alexkvaskov
New Member
Would be great to see analysis from actual military experts on this matter. In any case; how do Russia's policy makers expect the military industrial complex to recover by purchasing foreign hardware?
Oh yeah, the current crop of crooks in charge couldn't care less.
Well they're trying to get access to the technology and localize production of the vehicle.
There's also the fact that there are no domestic alternatives. Even the brand new Tigr 6a doesn't offer the level of mine-resistance that the LMV has, and it's a much larger vehicle. It's also not like they're going to stop buying the Tigr.
RussianLand Forces Thread
This is the official thread for discussing all things pertaining to the Russian military's Land Forces, VDV, and SpetzNaz.
Just to toss a few things out there right now: the VDV is currently testing a brand new thermal optic for small arms, the Shakhin thermal sight. It's being tested on the PKP, SVD, and AK-74. There's a decent photogallery here, a long with the news source in Russian. This is the first modern thermal optic for small arms in the Russian military and this represents a major breakthrough.
Подробнее : Министерство обороны Российской Фед&#
Another unique piece of modern equipment currently entering state trials is the Ural Tayfun MRAP. It's supposed to be rated to withstand up to 8kgs of trotyl equivalent, detonated underneath the vehicle. It's supposed to withstand repeated 14.5mm impacts, with even the armored glass designed to take up to two 14.5mm impacts without shattering.
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These, along with Iveco LMVs are supposed to become the basic transportation vehicles for future Land Forces light brigades.
This is the official thread for discussing all things pertaining to the Russian military's Land Forces, VDV, and SpetzNaz.
Just to toss a few things out there right now: the VDV is currently testing a brand new thermal optic for small arms, the Shakhin thermal sight. It's being tested on the PKP, SVD, and AK-74. There's a decent photogallery here, a long with the news source in Russian. This is the first modern thermal optic for small arms in the Russian military and this represents a major breakthrough.
Подробнее : Министерство обороны Российской Фед&#
Another unique piece of modern equipment currently entering state trials is the Ural Tayfun MRAP. It's supposed to be rated to withstand up to 8kgs of trotyl equivalent, detonated underneath the vehicle. It's supposed to withstand repeated 14.5mm impacts, with even the armored glass designed to take up to two 14.5mm impacts without shattering.
"
These, along with Iveco LMVs are supposed to become the basic transportation vehicles for future Land Forces light brigades.
The Russian MoD will be purchasing a German field hospital from Zeppelin Mobile, for testing and as a basis on which to develop a perspective Russian field hospital.
Lenta.ru:
This is another purchase of support equipment for the Russian military from Germany. Earlier were field kitchens, and training equipment. This appears to be a fairly solid trend. Thoughts?
Lenta.ru:
This is another purchase of support equipment for the Russian military from Germany. Earlier were field kitchens, and training equipment. This appears to be a fairly solid trend. Thoughts?
alexkvaskov
New Member
Can't say I'm thrilled with Russia's purchasing foreign hardware.. we really should be developing our own tech.. like before.
The problem is you can't anymore.
Not in all relevant fields. Russia has to live with the fact that in some fields it's industry has lost know how or better hasn't progressed since the Sovjet Union.
As much as it might hurt the Russian pride that's a fact. If your own industry can't deliver modern quality products due to lacking know how and/or production facilities you have to shop abroad and hope that some tech transfer and partial production in Russia brings your own industry back on tracks.
That Russia is doing better economical than during the 90s is mainly fuelled by commodities and not because of a thriving machinery and automotives industry.
If the Russian industry can't deliver a top notch training center buy it abroad. Still much better than continuing with the old "pew pew you are dead" while the rest of the developed world runs fully digitalized training centers.
The same obviously applies for mine protected vehicles, field hospitals, etc.
Not in all relevant fields. Russia has to live with the fact that in some fields it's industry has lost know how or better hasn't progressed since the Sovjet Union.
As much as it might hurt the Russian pride that's a fact. If your own industry can't deliver modern quality products due to lacking know how and/or production facilities you have to shop abroad and hope that some tech transfer and partial production in Russia brings your own industry back on tracks.
That Russia is doing better economical than during the 90s is mainly fuelled by commodities and not because of a thriving machinery and automotives industry.
If the Russian industry can't deliver a top notch training center buy it abroad. Still much better than continuing with the old "pew pew you are dead" while the rest of the developed world runs fully digitalized training centers.
The same obviously applies for mine protected vehicles, field hospitals, etc.
Indeed. Russia has a much eroded manufacturing (automotives, ship-buiding, aircraft etc), chemistry, electronics and machinery base compared to years gone by. Combine that with a relative small internal market and it is easy to see that the efficient R&D and production of several military products is very difficult and costly.
Relative high autarky in this sector can be very important but can carry a very steep price tag in the form of higher costs and lower quality.
This is only half of the problem. The other half is that even if Russia was completely up to date on everything, we still can't spend that much on defense. Buying abroad in some cases is just plain cheaper then developing a domestic alternative. Even the USSR sourced some military equipment abroad (L-39 jet trainers, and landing ships come to mind). The modern Russian MIC is fairly profitable and has experienced about a decade of uninterrupted growth, but it's nowhere near large and profitable enough for the MoD to ride on the coat-tails of export orders, which means the government has to invest money into the MIC to keep it running, and they are. This doesn't mean they can afford to do everything themselves.
alexkvaskov
New Member
Like posters have already mentioned, problems with the Russian MIC and armed forces stem from general problems in Russia.
Decrepit industry and the diminishing number of R&D cadres means that in any case Russia's incapable of producing the numbers necessary for superpower status.
The ongoing military reform emphasizes preparedness against local adversaries and conflicts.. would a Chinese assault against Siberia count as such?
Decrepit industry and the diminishing number of R&D cadres means that in any case Russia's incapable of producing the numbers necessary for superpower status.
The ongoing military reform emphasizes preparedness against local adversaries and conflicts.. would a Chinese assault against Siberia count as such?
Like posters have already mentioned, problems with the Russian MIC and armed forces stem from general problems in Russia.
Decrepit industry and the diminishing number of R&D cadres means that in any case Russia's incapable of producing the numbers necessary for superpower status.
The ongoing military reform emphasizes preparedness against local adversaries and conflicts.. would a Chinese assault against Siberia count as such?
The current reforms still leave Russia with a military capable of large scale conventional warfare. Note how the brigades are organized into armies, with appropriate army-level HQ and back-end support units? Russia still maintains a military capable of fighting a world war. Not against all of NATO put together, but certainly against a single major conventional opponent.
You're right and wrong at the same time. On one hand the MIC does suffer from the same problems. On the other hand even if Russia was in great economic shape there is no way one country can develop and produce all types of modern weapon systems independently. Even the US imports designs and equipment, albeit in very modest quantities. and the US spends hundreds of billions of dollars annually. Russian defense spending will not be that high ever (within the forseeable future). So no matter whether the problems will be solved or not, Russia will need to source some military equipment abroad.
There is also a corollary to what you say. Look at IAPO or KnAAPO. They don't suffer from most of the problems that the rest of Russia suffer from. In fact they even support local social infrastructure to some extent. In other words not only do they avoid the problems that Russia suffers in general, but they contribute positively to Russia.
Klaus
New Member
I think it is the right strategy to buy at least a part of the
equipment abroad. Otherwise there would be less sanctions
available against companies which don't fulfill their obligations.
If everything is bought just because it's indigenous hardware
the army would suffer from this in the end.
equipment abroad. Otherwise there would be less sanctions
available against companies which don't fulfill their obligations.
If everything is bought just because it's indigenous hardware
the army would suffer from this in the end.
Right now it's planned to be well under 10% of the state arms procurement program.
Interesting news, the planned Tornado-G (a Grad on a Kamaz chassis with new missiles, and new FCS) delivery of 36 systems has been postponed from last year to this year because state trials did not complete on time. They're planned to finish early this year. It'll be interesting to see whether they integrate them into a unified command system.
alexkvaskov
New Member
I believe it when I see it.
Not that there weren't such articles in the past...
This is referencing the Armata project. It's not really a new tank, more like a redesign of Object 195 to serve as a universal chassis, and with lower requirements to save money. It's entirely possible, though I don't know if they'll be able to lower the cost substantially. Economies of scale through mass production for SP arty, HAPC, HIFV, etc. can only go so far.