Iran and Related Geopolitical Defense Issues

gazzzwp

Member
I have not read every post in this thread, that being said, I would like to make one small point

Should the US bomb Iran, or should the US invade an Island of Iran, then Iran is probably going to take that as an act of war.

What happens in 2 years or so, if the war is still ongoing and Iran succeeds in making 4 or 5 a-bombs. First they test one underground, so the world knows where they stand.

Next Iran wants an end to the war and an end to sanctions, otherwise is goes further. What happens is Iran smuggles a few a-bombs into US cities via Canada, Mexico, semi-submersible rendevousing with a fishing boat. A container is a container ship that docks in a US port. What happens if they lob a long range artillery shell into a US military base in Kuwait? Ever heard of nuclear artillery?

All these things are not purely military matters to stop, they are intelligence matters. A suitcase bomb is the size of a suitcase. Think you can stop all of them? The US is trying to stop drugs getting into its country, how much do they stop, maybe half? maybe less.

I was watching the TV show cops the other day. There was a Mexican caught trying to get into the US. Big deal you say. But the thing is that he had a job and a family in teh US. It had been so easy for him to travel back and forth, that he would regulary go visit his family in Mexico before coming back across the border. They would wait for a day with lots of fog, the helicopters couldn't see anything, sure the ground patrols get a few, but how many ..60 percent?

What happens is Iranians fly a cessna across the border and drop a suitcase a-bomb at night into a lake, to be collected weeks or months later. Think you are likely to stop that? Iranians are going to blend into the populace of the US a lot better than North Koreans, simply via their looks. No doubt they would be exceptionally well trained. Years of training for one single mission, infiltrate the US and carry out your instructions.

How many years have we heard stories of Columbians running semi-submersibles to meet small boats off the US coast, Crewed be 3 or 4, but these days unmanned and programmed by GPS. They were running for years before they even interdicted the first one.

What happens if the bomb is on a sailing yacht, that meets with a fishing boat 15 miles out to sea at night, with good intelligence you might stop it, militarily is very very difficult. Are you going to search every yacht sailing to the US at 200 miles out?

There are more ways of deploying an a-bomb that via an ICBM.

You might be able to stop most of them, but in no ways are you going to stop them all. Hey the Iranians might be nice, they might just use their suitcase bomb to blow up a fleet base, or NSA headquarters, and not detonate it in the middle of Manhattan.

What is your stop for that? The only shot you have in your locker is say to the Iranians, if you detonate an a-bomb we will nuke you all. What are you going to do, kill 75 million people? What happens next? Any Iranian agents will no doubt use their dozen a-bombs and blow up a dozen cities, After that no problem, they dont have any a-bombs left.... hey no big deal.

My point is that if you bomb Iran, that is an act of war. If you declare war on someone you cant expect them to play nice.

I totally agree with everything you have said. The science of nuclear enrichment has spread prolifically in Iran and God only knows what the consequences of that will be. I agree that Nato could annihilate millions of Iranians but to what end? Long before that happens, nuclear material will end up in dozens of terrorist cells and sympathetic organisations worldwide, and the problem just multiplies from there.

Pandora's box has been opened and that is the real problem. A large or small scale conflict would not be the end of the matter and the US Government and the military powers around the world know this. It should have been stopped ten years ago; it's gone on for too long.

So what do we do? If we do nothing they develop the technology even further. Impose more sanctions and risk the consequences of the above scenario. Bomb them and risk the above scenario.

Having thought about this long and hard, and at times myself actually wanting to see a military engagement to bring the Iranians to heal, I realise it will not achieve anything. The answer if there is one lies with Russia and China with whom Iran may wish to negotiate.

By analogy it's a bit like a disaffected school child who is abusive to staff, does not comply with school rules, deliberately flunk's exams, refuses to do homework, and seeks solace with others of his /her type. Is Ahmadinejad not in the process of building ties with the Venezuelans?

School teachers know that pressure, threats and denial of privileges will not turn a child round; it needs a third party role model; someone from the same backyard to act as a persuasive force.

When you have such a comprehensively determined and well planned scheme such as the Iranians have executed for the last 10 years it is extremely difficult to defeat. They seem to have catered for every eventuality and are determined to see this thing through regardless of how long it takes.

I predict that Israel will act out of shear desperation very soon.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
I predict that Israel will act out of shear desperation very soon.
Not according to this article.

www.patrickseale.com - Is War With Iran A Serious Option?

The Israelis are fully aware that unless Iran is attacked, it will not, despite all the rhetoric coming from Tehran, initiate hostilities. And even if it does get the ''bomb'' it will not be used against Israel or the ''free world'' unless it is attacked. The Iranians are not stupid or insane, they fully realise that any use of the 'bomb'' against Israel or U.S. forces in the Gulf, would lead to the destruction of Iran. But why all this talk about war, why are we not talking about the need for a full and open dialogue between Washington and Tehran, with the full support of Russia and the EU? At present, it would seem that the only country pushing for a strike is Israel, at a time when the Middle East is already in a period of great uncertainty and turmoil due to the Arab Spring.

A new flare up in the Middle East would also mean that Israel would have more time in avoiding pressure for a settlement to the Palestinian issue and a weakened Iran would ensure that Israel, and only Israel remains the dominant military power in the region. If ever there was a time when Washington and Tehran should come to the realisation that both have common interests and that an agreement to the nuclear issue and improved relations would improve things not just in the region but globally, it is now. If certain guarantees were met, I'm certain the Iranians would give up their programme as the last thing they need or want is war. Yet it would seem that some are all bent for yet another ''war'' in the Middle East....
 

swerve

Super Moderator
It is true that you can, as you put it, “do all of the useful parts of this without putting a single US soldier within range of the Iranian shore!”, but would that really solve the problem in the long term? ...

I did not give up on air bases on the island as you have assumed but I did not think I had to repeat every element of my plan with every comment I make. And what makes you think that any air bases in the area cannot be brought under attack by guides missiles as they exist today? Does that make all air bases obsolete because they can be attacked?

One of the differences we have between us and it is a big one, is that I think that military force, if it must be used at all, is that it is used to settle the issue once and for all.
1. Not necessarily, but neither will your plan.

2. I do not wish to be rude, but this comment is silly & childish. It's a standard trolling ploy, to extend an argument to absurdity, then counter the absurd version.

There is a difference - and that difference is both obvious & crucial - between an air base within artillery range of an enemy & an air base within range of long-range guided missiles, or enemy aircraft. One can be attacked cheaply, with very large numbers of weapons. The other can be attacked only with large, expensive, & therefore much rarer weapons. Because of their rarity & time of flight, these weapons can also be countered much more easily than large numbers of cheap artillery rockets. Shooting down artillery rockets is possible, as Israel has shown, but the cost-effectiveness is poor. The defence costs more than the attack, & is still leaky.

Defending a US offshore (as in out of range of artillery) air base from Iranian aircraft & SSMs is exactly where the superior US technology & firepower you have previously mentioned comes into its own.

3. The 'once and for all' argument is widely used, & usually spurious. It sometimes has validity (as in when it's necessary to counter an attack which offers an existential threat), but mostly, it's a cause of avoidable conflict, cost, & suffering. It was put forward in the USA in the 1950s & early 1960s (see declassified reports from the Cuban missile crisis) as justifying a pre-emptive nuclear strike by the USA on the USSR, for example. It is almost always due to a failure by those putting it forward to understand the problem or the processes causing it. In real life, there is rarely a 'once and for all' solution available.

To return to your argument for air bases: I don't see that the USA has any need for more air bases in the Persian Gulf than it already has, in the form of aircraft carriers and the use of bases in friendly countries, but if it really does need one or two, they'd be much better placed on one or more of the smaller islands further from the Iranian mainland. They'd be more defensible (not at all vulnerable to infiltrators or artillery rockets), easier & cheaper to build, better placed to interdict traffic in the Gulf, would deny to Iran the use of those islands (from which they can currently threaten UAE oilfields & mid-Gulf traffic) & the islands would be easier to seize - and in a couple of cases, they are Iranian-occupied but claimed by friendly states. You have not addressed this issue at all.
 
Hi

I am not trying to be difficult, just to raise questions

It is true that Iran is going down the uranium enrichment route, not the plutonium route, thus my little understanding is that a uranium based a-bomb is larger than a plutonium one? Either way it would be somehting that could be put in a container, a yacht, a truck, maybe even drop if it from a cessna caravan as it flies across the border with the US from mexico.

As to my reseach, well my main interest outside of work is outrigger sailing canoes, this is very much a side interest. I have a website on these canoes, anyone that is really interested can PM me, I will refrain from spruking my website here.

Israel has better border security than the US, yet Bedoin still manage to smuggle people and drugs across the border from Egypt. It is called Slave trafficking. Some of the tunnels into Gaza are so big that they smuggle cars through, it is true that Gaza is not Israel proper. Note that Hezbollah have rockets, maybe Israel can stop most of them, but what happens if Hezbollah fire 4000 conventional rockets, plus one that has an a-bomb on the end of it. You think you will be able to stop them all? If you choose to stop only a selected number, how do you know which one is the most dangerous one?

Here was what I was thinking last night.
Here is what happens in sequence, very hypothetical


Iran closes the straights of Hormuz for 24 hours to conduct "essential" Naval manouveres. Question: do you bomb Iran?

Say you choose to, you have started a shooting incident and people are dying

Next Iranian leadership instructs its technical people to leave the IAE inspection protocol and make as many a-bombs as you can, deep deep undergound where air power cant reach them.

10 Jan 2014; Iran has now developed 15 a-bombs.
Jan 16 2014; Iran tests an a-bomb underground in the Iranian desert. It works
Jan 17 2014; Iran government releases a statemnet via Al Jazeera, it reads,

"the peaceful and democratically elected goverment of Iran, on behalf of its people have placed ten a-bombs in US cities in retaliation for the unprovoked and indisciminate use of force by the Zionist puppet supporter and world agressor the United States. These a-bombs are set to go off via timer. The first a-bomb to go off in 32 days is buried in teh desert in the Western US.

The governemnt of Iran is prepared to detail the exact location of all these weapons, and the codes to disarm them provided the US complies with teh following demands

1. Remove all US forces from Aghahistan, Kuwait, Iraq, Barhain and the Persian Gulf within 140 days

2. Immediately cease all military and non-military aid to the Zionist regime of Israel

3. Recognise the Paltestinian state as a sovereign nation and have Israel return to its pre 1967 boundaries

4. Pay compensation of 1 million dollars each to the 1245 families of Iranians killed in the unprovoked attack on the peaceful country of Iran

5 Pay compensation of 500,000 dollars each to each of the 3411 families of Iranians seriously injured in the unprovoked attack on Iran

6. Apologise for the shooting down of Iranian Airbus A300 in the 1980s

7. Apologiise for teh deposing of the democraticallly elected government of Iran in 1956 and the installation of a US puppet regime

8. Pay war compensation of 150 billion dollars

9. Remove all sanctions from Iran, and recognise the right of Iran to leave peaceably as a member of the world of nations

10. Stop all hostile and covert actions against the peaceloving peoples of Iran


Should the US comply with these modest demands, then the exact location of all pre-positioned atomic devices will be handed over to the US via an intermeiatory

Should the US not comply with these modest demands, then the peaceful and democratic peoples of Iran will assert the right to defend themselves against agressor nations.

End of statement"

Now you are president of the US, what do you do next?

As way of context, only a few months ago North Korea torpedoed a South Korean corvette. What military action was taken against North Korea? about zero. My point is that once a county has the a-bomb then dealing with them in a military means becomes very difficult

Also be advised, that I am no fan of the Iranian government, they stifle democracy, torture their own citizens, kill student demonstators, have an appalling human rights record
 

My2Cents

Active Member
It is true that Iran is going down the uranium enrichment route, not the plutonium route, thus my little understanding is that a uranium based a-bomb is larger than a plutonium one? Either way it would be somehting that could be put in a container, a yacht, a truck, maybe even drop if it from a cessna caravan as it flies across the border with the US from mexico.
Uranium is the quickest route to a bomb. To go the plutonium route for a nuclear weapon you need to build a specialized version of a breeder reactor. A nuclear reactor for power production will not work because the burn up is too high (you actually end up with more plutonium, but is the wrong isotopes and very variable in composition). Basically you need the enriched uranium first in order to make plutonium. You also have to build a large chemical plant to extract the plutonium and recycle the uranium.

Uranium based bombs are much larger because of several design factors. They also have lower yields because the neutron multiplication factor is lower. It will probably be too large and awkward to drop from a small plane into water. Missiles designed for nuclear warheads have a payload in excess of 200kg.

Radioactive material is easier to detect, and harder to conceal, than Hollywood writers makes it appear. In fact, with the right equipment, it is easier to catch people smuggling radioactive materials than drugs. Nearly all the major border crossing now have sensitive radiation detectors that can easily spot a container with a radiation source in it. Many major cities now have mobile units as well that would cover the area in a week or 2.

Another point here is that you will probably not be able to get the help from any established smugglers. While the payoff may be a once in a lifetime opportunity, the risk of their involvement being traced back to them, and the subsequent penalties, is too great. The likelihood of witnesses being made to disappear is also high. Successful smugglers are not stupid and have good instincts, and will steer clear, or even report your approaching them to authorities for a little quid pro quo. This means using your own people who are less experienced and more likely to trigger suspicion.
Israel has better border security than the US, yet Bedoin still manage to smuggle people and drugs across the border from Egypt. It is called Slave trafficking. Some of the tunnels into Gaza are so big that they smuggle cars through, it is true that Gaza is not Israel proper.
The weakness of smuggling tunnels is not the tunnel, but the ends where it comes above ground. With the Gaza end is in friendly territory all the problems for a tunnel operator are on the Egyptian end. Fortunately the Egyptian border guards are notorious for taking bribes. Note also that no portion of the tunnel is on or under Israeli territory.
Note that Hezbollah have rockets, maybe Israel can stop most of them, but what happens if Hezbollah fire 4000 conventional rockets, plus one that has an a-bomb on the end of it. You think you will be able to stop them all? If you choose to stop only a selected number, how do you know which one is the most dangerous one?
Nearly all of Hezbollah rockets are far too small for a nuclear warhead. They probably have only a few that can, and they are MUCH larger.
Here was what I was thinking last night.
Here is what happens in sequence, very hypothetical

Iran closes the straights of Hormuz for 24 hours to conduct "essential" Naval manouveres. Question: do you bomb Iran?
The US and other countries would ignore such a declaration by Iran, and may have done so once already. If Iran attempts to enforce it by firing on a foreign vessel it will be the signal to declare open season on the Iranian navy. It is unlikely that anything other than Iran’s naval assets will be targeted. The general population will not be indiscriminately targeted.
Say you choose to, you have started a shooting incident and people are dying

Next Iranian leadership instructs its technical people to leave the IAE inspection protocol and make as many a-bombs as you can, deep deep undergound where air power cant reach them.
They will have to stop doing this before they can start doing it again.
10 Jan 2014; Iran has now developed 15 a-bombs.
Jan 16 2014; Iran tests an a-bomb underground in the Iranian desert. It works
Jan 17 2014; Iran government releases a statemnet via Al Jazeera, it reads,
North Korea’s first attempt fizzled. Iran will not dare attempt to start the operation to get the bombs in place until after the completion and evaluation of the 1st successful test. If it fizzled they would have to retrieve the warheads from US territory without being detected, which would be a nightmare.

The probability of the operation being blown doubles with each additional warhead. Just deploying the warheads in the US would constitute an act of war that the US could not ignore.
"the peaceful and democratically elected goverment of Iran, on behalf of its people have placed ten a-bombs in US cities in retaliation for the unprovoked and indisciminate use of force by the Zionist puppet supporter and world agressor the United States. These a-bombs are set to go off via timer. The first a-bomb to go off in 32 days is buried in teh desert in the Western US.

The governemnt of Iran is prepared to detail the exact location of all these weapons, and the codes to disarm them provided the US complies with teh following demands

1. Remove all US forces from Aghahistan, Kuwait, Iraq, Barhain and the Persian Gulf within 140 days

2. Immediately cease all military and non-military aid to the Zionist regime of Israel

3. Recognise the Paltestinian state as a sovereign nation and have Israel return to its pre 1967 boundaries

4. Pay compensation of 1 million dollars each to the 1245 families of Iranians killed in the unprovoked attack on the peaceful country of Iran

5 Pay compensation of 500,000 dollars each to each of the 3411 families of Iranians seriously injured in the unprovoked attack on Iran

6. Apologise for the shooting down of Iranian Airbus A300 in the 1980s

7. Apologiise for teh deposing of the democraticallly elected government of Iran in 1956 and the installation of a US puppet regime

8. Pay war compensation of 150 billion dollars

9. Remove all sanctions from Iran, and recognise the right of Iran to leave peaceably as a member of the world of nations

10. Stop all hostile and covert actions against the peaceloving peoples of Iran

Should the US comply with these modest demands, then the exact location of all pre-positioned atomic devices will be handed over to the US via an intermeiatory

Should the US not comply with these modest demands, then the peaceful and democratic peoples of Iran will assert the right to defend themselves against agressor nations.

End of statement"

Now you are president of the US, what do you do next?
US response – “The use or attempted use of any weapon of mass destruction on US soil will be treated as an act of war and the US will respond with the full force of its unrestricted might.” {translation: Iran will be destroyed}

Probably response if an Iranian nuke detonates in a US city would start with nuclear warheads targeting all major Iranian cities. This would be followed by a ground invasion, possibly including the use of tactical nuclear weapons, i.e. unrestricted warfare. Casualties would be massive and one sided.

Meanwhile US cities are being combed for the additional nukes and the bomb planters activities traced. Most will be found. Actually, with a 30 day notice most, if not all, will be found and disarmed before they can be detonated.

I doubt that the US would bother with an occupation of Iran, the best thing to do would be to turn what is left over to a coalition of the Arab powers. The Iranian rulers are Persians, and the Sunni Arabs hate them for that as well as being Shia.
As way of context, only a few months ago North Korea torpedoed a South Korean corvette. What military action was taken against North Korea? about zero. My point is that once a county has the a-bomb then dealing with them in a military means becomes very difficult
The North Korean nuclear weapons had nothing to do with it. South Korea just did not have any preplanned responses. The top military leadership was forced out in disgrace because of it.
 

surpreme

Member
The North Korean nuclear weapons had nothing to do with it. South Korea just did not have any preplanned responses. The top military leadership was forced out in disgrace because of it.[/QUOTEI disageed with that nuclear weapons make you think before you act because of the destruction of a nuclear attack can cause. In the of N Korean it don't have powerful nuclear weapon but thought of it having 1or2 is enough for the S. Korean to think before it react.
 

Sampanviking

Banned Member
Some very entertaining but I suspect highly unlikely scenarios from Peter Australia.

I still maintain that the biggest danger regarding Iran would be in any measures that the regional powers considered capable of causing instability and bringing regime change.

In particular an attempt to rerun the Libyan strategy.
In this instance though there would be no UN mandate and so simply another coalition of the willing to try and use its air power to change the situation on the ground. The danger being that the Regional Powers would declare the action illegal and deploy their own airpower and air defences to create an air exclusion zone over Iran.
 
Please forgive my flourish into fictional story writing, it was one of those days

A step back to reality if I may. My guess is that Iran wont start hostilities until it is in a position of strength. Put the clock forward 3 years and with Iran working on its more advanced and efficient centrifuges, they might be then only a few months away from getting several bombs. Note also they are starting a big push to put their enrichment deep underground, No doubt they will do all the prepartory work, before going all out in one final quick push. (if that is of course what eventates)

My guess is now they are not strong enough to start a conflict, In 3 or 4 years they may recieve advice that although they have not yet built any a-bombs, they have enough advanced centrifuges deep, deep underground, that if given instructions they could in a few months build many weapons. No doubt their stockpile of 20 percent enriched uranium would be very large by then,

So, assuming they are smart, they will keep things quiet, at least for 3 or 4 years.

A bit of aggravation and threats in the media creates a degree of stress and anxitey. Anyone note how this pumps up the oil price? Where does Iran get its money from...... funnily enough ... its oil.

Before smuggling any device, of course they would want to make sure it works. Good point. I condensed the timeline for authors priveledge (it makes a more interesting story)

I would still argue that if Iran had mulitiple a bombs, say for arguements sake they had 20. Trying to stop one getting into a US city would be difficult. I do realise that it would weigh several hundreds kilos.

I would hate being the person whose job it was to prevent one been smuggled into my country.

I realise that Plutonium is made in a heavy water reactor, and Iran does not have these. Thus any nuclear weapons they have will have to be U-235 based, and thus not as compact and light as a plutonium based weapon.

My understanding is that the radiation from U-235 can be shielded, making its detection more difficult. (still possible but harder). A TV program I saw once said that Kitty litter was a very good shield for the radiation on U-235 (i assume radiation in neutrons)

North Korea has a-bombs (I use this term because it is quicker to write that nuclear weapons), however they are more interested in keeping things relatively peaceful. It is true that gunboat fights, sinking of corvettes and artillery fire onto a South Korean Isanld are exceptions to this,

My main point is that say in a few years Iran decides to go all out and develop many a-bombs. Should the US start a large bombing campaign in retaliation then I would argue that there is a real possibility that Iranian agents could smuggle a few a-bombs into the mainland US. Not easy but possible.

Yes they would have to use their own people not contract out the smuggling process. Yes it would not be easy. However to stop them completely is going to be very hard.

Anyway,, my weekend is over, It is back to work tomorrow.

Sorry once again for the hypothetical story (yes it was a bit over the top, I admit to that) I will refrain from such things in future......

anyway,,, back to the real world, my monday to friday job awaits
 
before I go to bed.

Here is an article that deals with some of the technical issues with detecting enriched U-235. It is harder than it at first appears. Wheras radioactive isotopes stolen from hospitals and univerisities and the like, HE U-235 gives off less radiation. Additionally with sufficient shielding it would be hard to detect.

Please read the link and make up your own mind, there is a lot of technical stuff in it

NRDC: The ABC News Nuclear Smuggling Experiment
 

gazzzwp

Member
The heat of the crisis seems to be cooling down for now with the delay to Austere Challenge 12, and a general acceptance towards diplomacy at least in the short to medium term.

Iran Wars Episode 1: The gulf menace — RT

RT are still trying to maintain a code red status with every other article being devoted to the issue. There is a good regional map on the above link detailing the bases of Iran as well as the US and it's allies.

Also detailed is a fairly comprehensive list of Iranian military assets. It's not difficult to see why the thought of a conflict is turning the stomachs of some.

According to RT Iran has 1500 high speed craft armed with guided missiles!

Surely without timely support from A10's and Apache's the 5th fleet would be very vulnerable? Any thoughts? Also 26 submarines whilst not being the most high tech would also pose considerable challenges?
 

My2Cents

Active Member
Here is an article that deals with some of the technical issues with detecting enriched U-235. It is harder than it at first appears. Wheras radioactive isotopes stolen from hospitals and univerisities and the like, HE U-235 gives off less radiation. Additionally with sufficient shielding it would be hard to detect.

Please read the link and make up your own mind, there is a lot of technical stuff in it

NRDC: The ABC News Nuclear Smuggling Experiment
  1. The last date for the experiment being carried out is in 2003. Due to typical government efficiency installation of automated detection systems with sensitivity several orders of magnitude greater did not really get started until 2008.
  2. They were using depleted uranium. As they note HE uranium is 100 times more radioactive.
  3. They mix different types of radiation dosage measurement (Becquerel, rad, and rem) to deliberately confuse what they are talking about. Their dosage calculations use the total mass, ignoring self shielding effects, critical for emissions that are primarily alpha radiation. The surface dosage rate is measured, but the effects of range are ignored.
  4. Effectiveness of shielding was based on total emissions, not just the strength of the gamma alone, which is much more penetrating than the others. A sheet of paper or an inch of air will stop alpha particles, a sheet of aluminum foil will stop beta, gamma can go though inches of lead.
  5. The mass they are using is ¼ to 1/8th what is required.
  6. Combining several pieces of HE uranium to make bomb pit is very hypothetical without access to sophisticated casting equipment and a hot cell.
You need to be aware that the NRDC is an anti-nuke advocacy group. Anything they provide will be effected by this stance, is likely to be slanted, and needs careful evaluation.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
"The North Korean nuclear weapons had nothing to do with it. South Korea just did not have any preplanned responses. The top military leadership was forced out in disgrace because of it."
I disageed with that nuclear weapons make you think before you act because of the destruction of a nuclear attack can cause. In the of N Korean it don't have powerful nuclear weapon but thought of it having 1or2 is enough for the S. Korean to think before it react.
North Korea got away with similar provocations in the past, before it had any nuclear weapons. The reason then was that it had thousands of guns & rocket launchers aimed at the northern suburbs of Seoul, & every other population centre near the border, & hundreds of ballistic missiles which might have chemical warheads. It still has them. One or two small nuclear weapons don't change the situation very much.
 

My2Cents

Active Member
According to RT Iran has 1500 high speed craft armed with guided missiles!

Surely without timely support from A10's and Apache's the 5th fleet would be very vulnerable? Any thoughts? Also 26 submarines whilst not being the most high tech would also pose considerable challenges?
Those 1500 high speed craft sound like everything in Iran that floats with a motor.

And those are NOT guided missiles, but from the pictures are barrage rockets. The article does not say guided missiles, only that they are missiles. It is probably an artifact of language, the translation software, or the assumption on our part that all missiles are guided. The pictures so far make it look like a fixed rack over the pilot station, definitely not trainable, and probably not adjustable in elevation. Strictly line the boat up, salvo the rockets, and pray. Probably cannot hit the broadside of a destroyer at 1km if there is any chop, but at 500m or less could be very nasty.

A10’s and Apache’s could help, but are not critical. The individual rockets are not that powerful, and once alerted to the threat and with weapons release given it will take at least 50 of those boats to swarm under a destroyer, and few will come back. Those boats are incredibly fragile, a couple 25mm rounds, or one proximity burst from a 5” shell will destroy one easily.

But, as I suggested earlier, IF the Iranians can achieve surprise, and IF they can get enough of those boats in range before the attack is sprung, it is conceivable that the Iranian Navy could cripple the US fleet in the Persian Gulf. That is, of course, temporary. The US Navy would of course be back in a month to start a campaign to destroy them. Clearing the Straits of Hormuz of mines while under fire will be tricky, but the real question is how long the rest of the world will tolerate the economic disruption from having the Persian Gulf oil cut off before attempting to force the US to come to a negotiated solution.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
They couldn't cripple the US fleet, because they wouldn't be able to concentrate the necessary numbers for the attack, without the USN realizing it. They might, under the right circumstances, be able to launch a devastating attack on a single ship isolated from the fleet.
 

henaselakesan

New Member
Hi.Yesterday, when the English ships were rejected from the Strait of HormuzوWas threatened by the Iranian NavyوThe ship is a modern claim that you have it, why did not defend himselfوThe Iranian navy escort ships with the passage of the Strait of HormuzوThe carrier did not defend himself because of privacyوThis does not infer that you think they are afraid of IranوPlease give me an answer as to why the ship did not defend himselfوI am awaiting a response from you:shudder
 

My2Cents

Active Member
Hi.Yesterday, when the English ships were rejected from the Strait of HormuzوWas threatened by the Iranian NavyوThe ship is a modern claim that you have it, why did not defend himselfوThe Iranian navy escort ships with the passage of the Strait of HormuzوThe carrier did not defend himself because of privacyوThis does not infer that you think they are afraid of IranوPlease give me an answer as to why the ship did not defend himselfوI am awaiting a response from you:shudder
I know you cannot post a link, but could you tell us which site to find this news on?
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
I know you cannot post a link, but could you tell us which site to find this news on?
Its rubbish, i googled 'Daring denied access of the Straight of Hormuz' and there were no links that even suggested that it had happened, and to be honest I would have thought it would have been pretty major news, at least for the UK.

I'll eat my words should a link arise, but i can't find anything even remotely resembling that happening through Google.
 

eryck

New Member
why has anybody talked about the third aircraft carrier is heading to the Gulf? Iran was bold enough to talk about closing the strait and yet no actions have been taken. I personally think they don't have the guts to do so.Anyway,I was actually hoping Iran stupid enough to close strait of Hormuz and get buried by the U.S. Three aircraft carrier = a kill
 
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