Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Ananda]

Don't the missiles have test kits to check for serviceable life? I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's standard maintenance practice. Having said that, IMO, having problems with missiles is not that uncommon (even it's storage can be an issue).

Well the MM 38 in TNI AL problem mostly not in electronic conditions but the conditions of the propelants. Thus the reconditioning should be replacing the propelant, There's plan to reconditioning the propelant with the ones being developed by LAPAN for the civilian/scientific satelite launch vehicle that's being prepared for 2012. It's solid propelant thus in theory should be feasible to be used to MM 38, however seems it's still stay as plan, and going nowhere. Seems aerospatialle does not provide propelant changing kits, and I don't know if other missiles manufacturer provide propelant changing services.

 

[aussienscale]

Military Budget

Just as a curiosity, what is Indonesia's anual defence budget in A$ ?

 

[Ananda]

Indonesian Defence Budget 2010.

This year is USD 4.5 bio, or 0.65% of GDP (Projected USD 700 bio this year) or 4.1% Government Budget (USD 110 bio for 2010). From that amount, it's projected only USD 1.5 bio that can be used for procurement of new asset and revitalizations of existing asset. The rest of USD 3.0 bio is being used for oparational purposes.

Since Soeharto's fall it's also historically that the annual budget only can be absorpt in average 80% due to the nature of Government budgets in here being singgle year and singgle stage absorptions. It's being discussed in here that the budgets absorption.usage change to multistage - multi year usage in order to increase the usage level.

With average current exchange rate between Aus$ and USD stand on 2:3, thus the overal budget in A$ approximately A$ 6.75 bio.

 

[Ananda]

Light Frigates Program Finally Underway ??

From Seputar Indonesia Newspaper with Google Tranlations:

JAKARTA (SI) - Indonesia will begin pioneering the development of warship types combatants who will be stationed to guard the eastern waters.

Secretary of Defense (SecDef) Yusgiantoro revealed, one to two months ahead, the Ministry of Defence (Kemhan) will start preparing the construction of warships combat will be conducted at PT PAL Surabaya. "Within one to two months of this we will prepare to build the largest combatant ships that we have," said Purnomo Kemhan Office, Jakarta, yesterday.

Type combatant warships to be built between corvettes and frigate class with a length of about 120 meters. Indonesia now has the ability in the construction of warships. For example, the manufacture of Banjarmasin KRI-592 which is a kind of landing platform dock (LPD). "Actually, there is already our warships ever built, but the type of LPD-type carrier.

If this (combatants), later designated as a warship, not a transport ship, "he said. On a separate occasion, the Commander of the Military Cross (Kolinlamil) Slamet Sulistiyono admiral explained, six older type of transport ship tanks (landing ship tanks) located in Kolinlamil will be retired.

"Six ships carrying American-made tanks are on average 64 to 70 years old. The boats were actually still pretty well maintained, but it's time to be replaced, "he said after attending the memorial service Kolinlamil 49th anniversary at Headquarters Kolinlamil Tanjung Priok, Jakarta, yesterday.

Well if this's true..Finally after so many years the light Frigates program's underway. Still 120 Meters length ? From what've been reading so far the Finantieri design or Damen Schelde design in which the light frigates will be based on were only 104-105 m length.
Many indications (like the arrival of our parlements delagetions to Damen shipyards) seems indicated Damen will be the winner for the design based.

BTW those LST, the two oldest American origin LST have active live in WW 2. One in Normandy and the other in Pacific. Quodo's for TNI AL that still manage to get those old Tubs operating untill recent time.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

KRI Soeharso Jalankan Misi Kemanusiaan di Ambon

Antara - Sabtu, 3 Juli


Surabaya (ANTARA) - Kapal Perang Republik Indonesia (KRI) dr. Soeharso-990 akan menjalankan misi kemanusiaan dalam Satuan Tugas Operasi Bhakti TNI Angkatan Laut (AL) di Ambon, Maluku, selama satu setengah bulan.

Kepala Bidang Penerangan Umum Komando Armada RI Kawasan Timur (Koarmatim) Mayor Laut TNI Kariono di Surabaya, Sabtu, mengatakan, kapal perang yang berfungsi sebagai rumah sakit itu akan digunakan untuk memberikan pengobatan gratis kepada masyarakat Ambon dan sekitarnya.

"Kegiatan tersebut merupakan bagian dari Sail Banda 2010 yang digelar TNI-AL di sekitar perairan laut Ambon," katanya.

Personel TNI-AL yang tergabung dalam Satgas "Surya Bhaskara Jaya" Sail Banda 2010 itu akan memberikan pelayanan kesehatan gratis, seperti pengobatan umum, pengobatan gigi, operasi pembedahan, dan penanganan medis lainnya kepada masyarakat pesisir dan daerah terpencil.

"Ini merupakan wujud perhatian TNI-AL dan negara terhadap kondisi masyarakat di daerah pesisir dan terpencil yang selama ini kesulitan mendapatkan fasilitas kesehatan memadai," kata Kariono.

Sebelum bertolak menuju Ambon, Satgas yang dipimpin Kolonel Laut (P) Eddt Sugiatmo tersebut berangkat dari Surabaya menuju Jakarta untuk membawa peralatan kesehatan, dan obat-obatan, serta logistik yang dibutuhkan selama operasi, Jumat (2/7) malam.

KRI dr. Soeharso sebelum ditetapkan sebagai kapal rumah sakit itu bernama KRI Tanjung Dalpele-972. Kapal buatan Korea Selatan itu bergabung dengan Koarmatim pada 21 September 2003.

Kapal tersebut telah beberapa kali menjalankan misi kemanusiaan, termasuk pada saat bencana tsunami terjadi di Nanggroe Aceh Darussalam pada 2004 dan bencana gempa bumi Padang, Sumatra Barat pada 2009.

Kapal yang memiliki panjang keseluruhan 122 meter, daya angkut 11.300 ton, berbobot mati 2.480 ton dengan kecepatan maksimum 15 knot itu mampu menampung dua helikopter.

Kapal itu dilengkapi unit gawat darurat, ruang operasi, apotek, dan beberapa ruang perawatan medis lainnya.

Short translation
The Eastern Fleet Command has sended the KRI Soeharso 990, a 122 meters long hospitalship, to Maluku. The ship is sended to this province because of Sail Banda 2010 and to give free medical aid to the people there.

 

[Ananda]

The PKR (originally National Corvetes Program) Finally Underway

From Viva News with Google translate:

VAnews - Government of Indonesia inaugurated the construction of a warship in domestic production, 'Frigate Light-Missile Destroyer Watchtower'. This ship is the first modern combat warship to be created Indonesia.

"This is the first step in Indonesia's defense industry to move forward," said Defence Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro in the office of the Ministry of Defence, Jakarta, Monday, August 16, 2010.

Although the development of Frigate ship like this has been done elsewhere, but this evidence and the seriousness of Indonesia to maintain the sovereignty of the unitary Republic of Indonesia.

According to Minister Purnomo, the construction of warship is expected to spend the funds amounting to U.S. $ 220 million with construction over four years old.

Kemenhan will submit full development of this vessel to PT PAL as the domestic defense industry. "Development of left entirely in PT PAL to maximize local content," he said.

According to him, the ship was built at the division PKR warships. "Where is the management and organization of the project which includes machinery, procurement, construction, financial and managed separately from the corporate activities of PT PAL," he said.

In this Frigate ship-building, he said, PT PAL will not be alone, but will cooperate with companies from the Dutch shipyard, Damen Schelde as the winner of the tender-ship building.

There was some agreement between the Damen Kemenhan-Schelde, Netherlands as the winning bidder. Like, design patents PKR warships armed with various kinds of missiles Kemenhan belong together with the tender winner.

Kemenhan and PT PAL also has the right to sell the same ship to the countries of ASEAN and Asia.

Ship Specification PKR

Sigma 10 514: Light frigates proposed by Damen in the tender vessel PKR

PKR ship designed to be used in some operating missions, including electronic warfare, anti-air warfare, anti submarine warfare, anti-ship warfare surface gunfire support ship. PKR warships are also equipped with a SAM missile, SSM, and anti-submarine missiles.

The ships are equipped with supplies of weapons including 76-caliber cannon up to 100 mm and 20 to 30 mm caliber, air missile launchers, helipad on the ship deck, and torpedo weapons and other support equipment.

The length of the vessel 105 meters, 14 meters wide, 8.8 meters depth, speed 30/18/14 knots with the main engine power 4 X 9240 horse power (horse power).

The ship can accommodate 100 to 120 crew. This ship is also capable of operating up to outer Indonesian Exclusive Economic Zone, either alone or escorting other ships. (Sj)

( VIVAnews )

So according to this Damen Schelde come's out as winning bidder, Thus the light frigates (PKR in Indonesian) will based on Damen 105 M light Frigates design, which basically enlargement on Diponegoro class Damen build corvetes.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

From Viva News with Google translate:


So according to this Damen Schelde come's out as winning bidder, Thus the light frigates (PKR in Indonesian) will based on Damen 105 M light Frigates design, which basically enlargement on Diponegoro class Damen build corvetes.

According to Wikipedia this will be the armament:

SIGMA 10514

In 16 August 2010, Indonesia Defense Department, sign a deal with PT PAL Indonesia and Damen Schelde to build a 105 meter Heavy Corvette in Indonesia based on Damen Schelde Sigma 10514. The Corvette will be equipped with 100mm Main Canon, 12 MICA vertical launch air defence missile, Bofors ASW Rocket launcher SR375A, MM-40 Exocet block II, Torpedo, Phalanx and Smart-S MK2 radar system.

Dimensions: 105 x 14 x 8,8 meters, Displacement: 2400(t) Engine: 4 x diesel engines at 9.240 Horse Power, Speed: 30 knots(max) 18 knots(Cruising) 14 Knots (Economic), Accommodation: 120

I dont believe our ships will be equipped with the Phalanx, they also dont mentioned the source of this information, so maybe its completely BS.

 

[Ananda]

I dont believe our ships will be equipped with the Phalanx, they also dont mentioned the source of this information, so maybe its completely BS.

Agree, I Think the function of close in weapon system already being taking care by Matra Simbad close in missiles just like in Diponegoro's/Sigma class corvetes. Also the main gun I think will used Oto Melara 76 mm just like Diponegoro and Van Speijk. Don't think the NAvy want's another even larger calibre due the logistic matters. Seems the Navy in the future wants to standardise their main gun to Bofor's 57 mm and Oto Melara 76 mm.

I was more interested on Vertival Launch MICA system that Damen proposal put as the potential main AAW system.

 

[haller]

Some doubts

Well, so it looks that Dutch won again. And yet, Italians have been in the forefront for quite long time. What happened then? Obvious (apparently): Dutch have sold already four Sigma, so it looks "natural" to proceed on the path. And it is.

But... are we sure that Sigma got a good result after delivery? Someone told me that the Diponegoro (the first Sigma) was sent to the Mediterranean, to participate to UN peacekeeping mission of UNIFIL. And it was operational two months only. First, it had a problem to the radar, and they had to dismount the antenna. After one month, big problems came out to the axis (between engine and propeller), that was bending! Really incredible. The ship was transported to a Turkish shipyard for repair, but the extraction of the axis was impossible. So, it went to Athens, where repair to both radar and axis was conducted. But hte problem to axis was really a problem at design level.

Now all Sigma are under repair at PAL facilities in Surabaya, where, in addition to the above, they are discovering that the quality of steel is very poor. When steel blast i s done, holes are created in the structure. And they are brand new military ships! Ships 30 years old request great care during steel blast, to avoid risks of holes, not brand new ships!

It would be better to think a little bit more, before assigning a new contract to the same shipyard that created such bad problem, that surely costed reputation also to the Indonesian Navy, in front of other UN Navies.

And, another doubt: The ships shoul be built in PAL. But also Sigma nr. 3 and 4 should have been built at PAL. It was written in the contract. And yet they were built in Holland. Are we sure that the Dutch, that have never considered local construction up to few months ago, now really accept to build in PAL? I understand that Italians have been working with PAL on this project since 2004, always declaring their intention to build in Indonesia. Can we still trust Damen?

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Agree, I Think the function of close in weapon system already being taking care by Matra Simbad close in missiles just like in Diponegoro's/Sigma class corvetes. Also the main gun I think will used Oto Melara 76 mm just like Diponegoro and Van Speijk. Don't think the NAvy want's another even larger calibre due the logistic matters. Seems the Navy in the future wants to standardise their main gun to Bofor's 57 mm and Oto Melara 76 mm.

I was more interested on Vertival Launch MICA system that Damen proposal put as the potential main AAW system.

The MATRA Simbad is just a quadruple launch system of the Mistrale MANPADS, a low -budget SAM against low and slow flying aircrafts like helicopters. (lower than 3 km and not further than 6 km). Absolutely unable to take down sea skimmers, jetfighters or even jetliners. So useless in modern war. It is inferior to the Seawolf SAM of the Malaysian Lekiu class. A CIWS would be a large improvement, but it would be more logical to install a Goalkeeper (made by Hollandse Signaal) instead of the American Phalanx.

As you said the Sylver (SYStème de Lancement VERtical) with the MICA would be a good choise and even better than the Seawolf.

As you also said it is more likely that the new SIGMA 10514 frigates will be equipped with the 76 mm gun, like most ships build bij Koninklijke Schelde. (However the Fatahillah Class has the Bofors 120 mm)

 

[Ananda]

The MATRA Simbad is just a quadruple launch system of the Mistrale MANPADS, a low -budget SAM against low and slow flying aircrafts like helicopters. (lower than 3 km and not further than 6 km). Absolutely unable to take down sea skimmers, jetfighters or even jetliners. So useless in modern war. It is inferior to the Seawolf SAM of the Malaysian Lekiu class. A CIWS would be a large improvement, but it would be more logical to install a Goalkeeper (made by Hollandse Signaal) instead of the American Phalanx.

Well according to Jane's article i read somewhere (have to try found it latter on), EADS Missiles claim that even MATRA Simbad was based on Mistrale Manpads, however it has modified seeker, more capable soft ware that enables the missiles to be close in weapon system against sea skimmer missiles (although only has effective kill range of 6km - 9 km).

I think there are debates on Matra Simbad abilities in other forum where some European (especially French) claim that Matra Simbad have the capabilities of RAM Close in missiles.
Well, the French trust Matra Simbad as they close in missiles on some of their LPD's. Still it's the manufacturer (moreover Franch) claims.

As the Bofors 120 mm on Fatahillah, I believe it's originated from old Holland class destroyers. I don't know if Bofors still build that. It's being put on Fatahillah on the insistance of Admiral Soedomo for large calibre guns for shore bombardment.
With TNI AL now moved to LPD as their future main Amphibious assets, I don't think the thinking for large calibre shore bombardment still prevail.

 

[Ananda]

But... are we sure that Sigma got a good result after delivery? Someone told me that the Diponegoro (the first Sigma) was sent to the Mediterranean, to participate to UN peacekeeping mission of UNIFIL. And it was operational two months only. First, it had a problem to the radar, and they had to dismount the antenna. After one month, big problems came out to the axis (between engine and propeller), that was bending! Really incredible. The ship was transported to a Turkish shipyard for repair, but the extraction of the axis was impossible. So, it went to Athens, where repair to both radar and axis was conducted. But hte problem to axis was really a problem at design level.

Now all Sigma are under repair at PAL facilities in Surabaya, where, in addition to the above, they are discovering that the quality of steel is very poor. When steel blast i s done, holes are created in the structure. And they are brand new military ships! Ships 30 years old request great care during steel blast, to avoid risks of holes, not brand new ships!

Well it seems you somehow debating the quality of Damen Schelde vs Fincantieri,. In my oppinion those two are highly regard and experience ship builder, and I don't have strong arguments on which of those two are the best.

I don't know how the problem of the four Damen build Sigma Corvetes now in TNI AL inventories, however do remember TNI AL is the first customers of SIGMA, and Diponegoro was the first SIGMA ever build.

I think building some new design do have problem that need to sort out. However TNI AL now claim all four Sigma in full readiness.

Why Damen won and not Fincantieri which actually already have longger talk with PAL? I can only speculate that the whoever that finally willing to conduct all manufacturing in PAL and provide bigger support to PAL is the winning factor.

On why the 3rd & 4th Sigma Corvetes eventually still build on Damen shipyard and not in PAL, again based on several communicates from sources in here I'm specualting 2 thing:

1. PAL was not ready yet at that time,
2. TNI AL wants to have those 4 corvetes ASAP (remember Damen manage to finish those 4 Corvetes in 6 years, quite fast for new design building).

One other thing, this is based on business sides and from comparing Fincantieri Commandante orders and Damen SIGMA orders, Damen need PAL more than Fincantieri need PAL for continue productions of their corvetes/light frigates (SIGMA vs Commandante).

In short Damen perhaps more willing to go longger way on securing the deal with PAL. From Min-Def sources, Damen willing to share SIGMA pattents with PAL for one thing. Thus made PAL co-developer and not just under-license producers.

 

[STURM]

Well according to Jane's article i read somewhere (have to try found it latter on), EADS Missiles claim that even MATRA Simbad was based on Mistrale Manpads, however it has modified seeker, more capable soft ware that enables the missiles to be close in weapon system against sea skimmer missiles (although only has effective kill range of 6km - 9 km).

I think there are debates on Matra Simbad abilities in other forum where some European (especially French) claim that Matra Simbad have the capabilities of RAM Close in missiles.
Well, the French trust Matra Simbad as they close in missiles on some of their LPD's. Still it's the manufacturer (moreover Franch) claims.

SIMBAD is basicly a Mistral missile on a naval mount and is also mounted on the RSN's Fearless class. I was under the impression that the TNI-AL has got the TETRAL stabilised mount with 4 missiles on it's SIGMA corvettes and not SIMBAD.

I'm really surprised that EADS claims Mistral/SIMBAD has a capability to engage sea skimmers. If true this would be a first for a V-SHORADs missile or as they used to be called, MANPADS. I really doubt however, and I'm no expert, that Mistral/SIMBAD has the same performance as RAM as RAM is a faster and bigger missile. Incidently, the missile with one of the fastest reaction times in leaving its launcher and heading towards the threat is the VLS Seawolf which unfortunatly, like RAM and Phalanx is only effective against subsonic and not supersonic missiles.

The MATRA Simbad is just a quadruple launch system of the Mistrale MANPADS, a low -budget SAM against low and slow flying aircrafts like helicopters. (lower than 3 km and not further than 6 km). Absolutely unable to take down sea skimmers, jetfighters or even jetliners. So useless in modern war. It is inferior to the Seawolf SAM of the Malaysian Lekiu class.

Unless I'm mistaken SIMBAS has 2 not four missiles. The mount with 4 missiles is TETRAL. Anyway, if flying low enough, jefighters and jetliners can easily be engaged by MISTRAL. V-SHORADS in general can't operate above 10,000 feet.

Indeed it is inferior to Seawolf but then its a different category of missile.

As you said the Sylver (SYStème de Lancement VERtical) with the MICA would be a good choise and even better than the Seawolf.

But Aster would cost probably 3-4 times more than Seawolf being a generation ahead and more capable. ASTER 30 however which requires the Sylver A50 VLS is too large too be mounted on corvettes and even frigates. I'm not even sure if ASTER 15 would fit in a vessel the size of the SIGMA.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Unless I'm mistaken SIMBAS has 2 not four missiles. The mount with 4 missiles is TETRAL. Anyway, if flying low enough, jefighters and jetliners can easily be engaged by MISTRAL. V-SHORADS in general can't operate above 10,000 feet.

Yes, it was the Tetral, thanks for your correction.

But Aster would cost probably 3-4 times more than Seawolf being a generation ahead and more capable. ASTER 30 however which requires the Sylver A50 VLS is too large too be mounted on corvettes and even frigates. I'm not even sure if ASTER 15 would fit in a vessel the size of the SIGMA

.

Yes, the Aster system i quite big. The SAM VL Mica, is it the whole system, just the launcher or just the missile? I can not find info about the SAM VL Mica system on the internet. But indeed the Royal Navy of Oman also orders VL Mica for three new Khareef OPV’s , so it looks like that the VL MICA is small and light enough for corvettes and OPVs.

I only can find this:

VL Mica is a Vertical launched close area Air Defence system based on the extensively proven Mica missile. It offers outstanding self-defence capability against saturating air and anti-ship attacks.

and

The MICA can be employed as a short-range surface-to-air missile, currently available fired from a truck-mounted box launcher. This system is known as VL MICA SHORAD. It has recently shown its capabilities with a successful test: 23 October 2008, 15:30, at CELM, Biscarosse (Landes), one MICA VL was launched against a small RPV Banshee. The RPV was flying at low level, on the sea, 12 km away; despite this distance (roughly twice the range of Sea Wolf), the MICA (with an active radar seeker) locked the target and shot it down. This was the last of 14 firings, and now the weapon is ready to be mass-produced. Corvettes too small to have the costly Aster missile systems will be the best customer for this weapon, that basically is an Aster without its booster and PIF-PAF vectorial control(as example, the diameter and radar are roughly the same in both Mica and Aster).

 

[Ananda]

I'm really surprised that EADS claims Mistral/SIMBAD has a capability to engage sea skimmers. If true this would be a first for a V-SHORADs missile or as they used to be called, MANPADS. I really doubt however, and I'm no expert, that Mistral/SIMBAD has the same performance as RAM as RAM is a faster and bigger missile. Incidently, the missile with one of the fastest reaction times in leaving its launcher and heading towards the threat is the VLS Seawolf which unfortunatly, like RAM and Phalanx is only effective against subsonic and not supersonic missiles.

Have read somewhere (and if my memory rights it's from Jane's article), and still try to find it. However the perpective of the claim is to engage sea skimmer on relative short distances (6 km - 9 km) in which in my oppinion theoritically doable but means the system has to got very fast reaction in which I don't know if Matra Simbad has it.
The claim SImbad is at par with RAM I believe on some fan boys on internet, and not to be taken seriously. However i put it before just to show some debate still raging on in whether Matra Simbad really have decent capabilities as Close in weapon system.

 

[STURM]

Yes, it was the Tetral, thanks for your correction.
Yes, the Aster system i quite big. The SAM VL Mica, is it the whole system, just the launcher or just the missile? I can not find info about the SAM VL Mica system on the internet. But indeed the Royal Navy of Oman also orders VL Mica for three new Khareef OPV’s , so it looks like that the VL MICA is small and light enough for corvettes and OPVs.

Yes I checked it is TETRAL on the TNI AL Sigma's. I was a bit worried because in an article I did on the TNI AL for Warships International magazine in 2008 I listed the Sigma's as being fitted with TETRAL The RTN has decided on either the SADRAL [6 missiles] or the TETRAL for the Charki Naruebet which was originally meant to be fitted with Sea Sparrow.

I would think that VL 'Mica ' refers to the missile but of course it also requires an 8 or
16 cell VLS. If it can fit on the Omani OPVs it should be able to fit on the Sigma's. I do remember reading somewhere that the TNI AL was at one point looking at the Umkhonto.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Have read somewhere (and if my memory rights it's from Jane's article), and still try to find it. However the perpective of the claim is to engage sea skimmer on relative short distances (6 km - 9 km) in which in my oppinion theoritically doable but means the system has to got very fast reaction in which I don't know if Matra Simbad has it.
The claim SImbad is at par with RAM I believe on some fan boys on internet, and not to be taken seriously. However i put it before just to show some debate still raging on in whether Matra Simbad really have decent capabilities as Close in weapon system.

On all websites about the Mistral, they all said it has only a range of 6km or less.
(Tanks and combat vehicles, Luchtafweersystemen - Hyves.nl)
([ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistral_missile"]Mistral (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Mistral-2.jpg" class="image"><img alt="Mistral-2.jpg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/Mistral-2.jpg/300px-Mistral-2.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/5/58/Mistral-2.jpg/300px-Mistral-2.jpg[/ame])
"Effective range 5.3 km (effective against helicopters at up to 4 km)"
(Mistral)
"Range 5 km ( at 4 km effective against helicopters )"

Officially the OTO melara 76 is also usable as a AA gun.
"The gun is capable of very high rates of fire, making it suitable for short-range anti-missile point defence. Its calibre also gives it abilities for anti-aircraft, anti-surface and ground shelling."
([ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otobreda_76_mm"]Otobreda 76 mm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Nansen-oto75mm-2006-07-03.jpg" class="image"><img alt="Nansen-oto75mm-2006-07-03.jpg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ad/Nansen-oto75mm-2006-07-03.jpg/300px-Nansen-oto75mm-2006-07-03.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/a/ad/Nansen-oto75mm-2006-07-03.jpg/300px-Nansen-oto75mm-2006-07-03.jpg[/ame])
But we all know its not very reliable in this role.

 

[STURM]

But we all know its not very reliable in this role.

Depends on the ammo used. Oto Melara has developed new 76mm ammo [DAVIDE] to deal with missiles. For the Bofors MK3, there is 3P ammo, problem is the price.......
The best solution for dealing with anti ship missiles would be to rely on a combination of hard kill [guns and missiles] and a soft kill [chaff, jamming] solution. This of course is not practical for all navies due to cost issues. Another problem is home on jam technology, which has been incoporated on some missiles.

It will be interesting to see if the TNI has any plans to conduct a SLEP on it's 3 Fatahillah class corvettes as these ships still have a useful role to play . Like the RMN's Kasturi class frigates, the Fatahillah's were delivered with the Bofors 375mm ASW rocket launcher [replaced on the Kasturi class with torpedoes].

 

[haller]

On Shipyards and CIWS

Well it seems you somehow debating the quality of Damen Schelde vs Fincantieri,. In my oppinion those two are highly regard and experience ship builder, and I don't have strong arguments on which of those two are the best.

I don't know how the problem of the four Damen build Sigma Corvetes now in TNI AL inventories, however do remember TNI AL is the first customers of SIGMA, and Diponegoro was the first SIGMA ever build.

I think building some new design do have problem that need to sort out. However TNI AL now claim all four Sigma in full readiness..

True. No doubt that both shipyards are highly regard and experience shipbuilders. I was just looking at the present result, of the present ship. A new design has ALWAYS problems, true. But if the quality of the steel is very poor (or if it is too thin), it means that the shipbuilder has thought only to save money, regardless of quality, regardless of international standards. This is not "a problem". If the axis bends during operation, it is a big fault in design. It is not "a problem". All Sigma in full readiness? What are they doing in PAL?

On why the 3rd & 4th Sigma Corvetes eventually still build on Damen shipyard and not in PAL, again based on several communicates from sources in here I'm specualting 2 thing:

1. PAL was not ready yet at that time,
2. TNI AL wants to have those 4 corvetes ASAP (remember Damen manage to finish those 4 Corvetes in 6 years, quite fast for new design building).

I would add point 3: Damen ha NEVER wanted to build ships in Surabaya, because they do NOT trust PAL, its quality, its capability to carry out the work. And in fact, while Fincantieri has always supported the idea of the "Korvet Nasional", since 2004, Damen has proposed, for PKR, a ship entirely built in Holland. Only in the last few months, they started playing dirty, claiming to build the ship "with" PAL, but with the idea of leaving them the local construction of bow and stern, while building the central part and the superstructure (that is 70% of the ship) in Holland (of course with PAL Engineers assisting to the comedy!). Maybe now they accepted to do all in Surabaya. Wait and see. Regarding the support given to PAL, Fincantieri proposed to develop the design together with PAL, with two advantages:
1. PAL develops design capabilities, not jut construction.
2. property of design would have been common.
For Damen, the design exists already. OK, the Dutch shall "concede" the licence, but the difference is not so little. And what about design capabilities?

Coming to CIWS, the specs were requesting a Goalkeeper-like CIWS, working on the principle of firing as many bullets as possible against incoming missile at short range, hoping to make it explode. Here there are two problems:
1. With 20 or 30 mm rounds, you can counter a target at distances below 1,000 m. And, with supersonic missiles, even if you have a fully automatic reaction (which is the core characteristic of any CIWS), you may think to have impact at 500 m from the ship, when it is really too late. In fact, systems like Goalkeeper, or Phalanx, were conceived in the late Seventies of last century, more than 30 years ago. And, in fact, it looks that Thales is pushing the system out of production.
The Dutch did not propose any solution as CIWS. Apparently, so did the Italians. As a matter of fact, the Italians proposed a very interesting solution: the same Fire Control System selected by the Italian and French Navies on board their new Destroyers Horizon Class (today at sea) and FREMM Class (presently under construction). What makes the difference? The Italian FCS has a fully automatic reaction, like a CIWS and, associated to the 76 gun (like on Horizon and FREMM), can engage with a very short reaction time, any incoming missile at medium distance, starting to counter it a 8 km (not 800 m!) from the ship, thus assuring a safe period in which to destroy missile. Of course the Dutch also proposed their FCS associated to 76 gun. But no feature of fully automatic reaction, and so engagement of the incoming missile can start at 2 km only. The difference is not so small...

 

[gvg]

The Dutch MoD has sent a letter to Parliament last March, informing them of their plans to upgrade the Goalkeeper.

From that (Dutch) letter:
The radar will be upgraded, to make the system better suitable against threats in the littorals.
The electronics, prime movers, control circuit apparatus and software will also be upgraded or replaced.
Thales Nederland and General Dynamics will be involved in the upgrade.
The actual upgrading will be done between 2012 and 2018 during the CIWS' regular maintenance.
http://www.defensie.nl/_system/hand...ef_Instandhouding_Goalkeeper_tcm46-149259.pdf

And by the way, Damen was already thinking about deploying personnel to Surabaya more than 18 months ago. So, if there was a sudden change in their proposition, it must be at least as old.