Sukhoi unveils Supercruising Su 35-1 flanker

[Scorpion82]

what makes you think su-35 when it comes out will be better than J-11B?

Honestly do you believe that the Chinese will built a better Flanker than the Russians? I personally doubt it. The J-11B is in the end a chinese version of the Su-27SK with some domestic technologies being incorporated such as WS-10A engines, some cockpit updates (2 MFDs, new HuD) and a little bit of new chinese electronic equipment including a MSA radar and with chinese weapons integrated (PL-8/11/12). The Su-35 on the other site is an almost completly new aircraft with a probably more advanced airframe, superior engines (3-D TVC and more thrust), larger internal fuel load, more advanced FCS (though the J-11B might be equipped with digital FBW as well), a much more powerful and advanced radar, more advanced cockpit and electronics and with broader weapon options. Of course it is difficult to judge due the limited details being known especially about the J-11B, but I think it's very likely that the Su-35 will be superior.

 

[Scorpion82]

Besides the avionics, N001V radar and FM1 engine upgrades, there is also the updated self-defense suite, with the L150 Pastel ELINT system, a new L175 Khibiny jamming system, and chaff-flare dispensers in addition to strengthening the landing gear in view of the increased load of 8 tons.

From where do you get the info that the Su-27SM is equipped with L150? BTW L175 is an ESM system and will be featured by the Su-35, I doubt it is already available for the Su-27SM. Basically I would be interested in any news about the updated EWS for the SM as I though there would be no upgrades.

 

[eaf-f16]

J-11B is not an upgrade program. It's a brand new fighter.

Really? With new air frame and everything? Because otherwise it's not a brand new plane it's just a really big upgrade.

I was asking because I thought the J-11B is supposed to be a standard J-11/Su-27 with extensive upgrades making it approach, match or even exceed the Su-30 in some aspects.

I was wandering if the Russian Air Force was going to do anything that comprehensive with their Su-27 fleet (e.i. giving them multi-role capability).

 

[Scorpion82]

Really? With new air frame and everything? Because otherwise it's not a brand new plane it's just a really big upgrade.

I was asking because I thought the J-11B is supposed to be a standard J-11/Su-27 with extensive upgrades making it approach, match or even exceed the Su-30 in some aspects.

I was wandering if the Russian Air Force was going to do anything that comprehensive with their Su-27 fleet (e.i. giving them multi-role capability).

All J-11B are new built. It's not an upgrade for existing airframes, but of course is the J-11B based on the Su-27SK. Despite the fact that the S-u27SM is an upgrade for existing Su-27 it features very similar improvments of the Su-27 like the J-11B.

 

[Chrom]

There will be no export customers for the SU-35 only Russia has them in small numbers, India is getting the SU-30MKI not as a interim aircraft but one that will serve along with the PAK-FA.

Russia dont have even single Su-35BM. Some "old" Su-35 are located in testing and show units like "Russian Knight". While formally they are in service within VVS, in fact they are not.

Again, Su-35BM will not be procured by RuAF. There is absolutely no plans for it, and no funds in recent 8-years procurement plan. All interviews i saw told 1 thing - it is purery export project, intendend exclusevely for export costumers.

 

[Chrom]

Really? With new air frame and everything? Because otherwise it's not a brand new plane it's just a really big upgrade.

I was asking because I thought the J-11B is supposed to be a standard J-11/Su-27 with extensive upgrades making it approach, match or even exceed the Su-30 in some aspects.

I was wandering if the Russian Air Force was going to do anything that comprehensive with their Su-27 fleet (e.i. giving them multi-role capability).

Su-27SM upgrade already offers some multirole capabilty - i.e it is able to employ guided air-to-ground ammunition.

 

[eaf-f16]

All J-11B are new built. It's not an upgrade for existing airframes, but of course is the J-11B based on the Su-27SK. Despite the fact that the S-u27SM is an upgrade for existing Su-27 it features very similar improvments of the Su-27 like the J-11B.

I meant as in a completely new airframe design, different from the standard Su-27 airframe. Otherwise the J-11B (as is the Su-3X plane) is just an upgraded Su-27.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

Russia dont have even single Su-35BM. Some "old" Su-35 are located in testing and show units like "Russian Knight". While formally they are in service within VVS, in fact they are not.

Again, Su-35BM will not be procured by RuAF. There is absolutely no plans for it, and no funds in recent 8-years procurement plan. All interviews i saw told 1 thing - it is purery export project, intendend exclusevely for export costumers.

I was not talking about the SU-35BM, only the origonal Su-35. Yes as I said a few are in service with thr Russian air force such as the Russian Nights.

 

[onslaught]

I was not talking about the SU-35BM, only the origonal Su-35. Yes as I said a few are in service with thr Russian air force such as the Russian Nights.

You keep saying that the Su-35 is in service there are different kinds of "service". You have the kind of service where the aircraft will participate in combat should the need arise. You also have the kind of service that are for non combat roles lie tech demonstators or trainers. So, in very technical terms, yes the su-35 is in service, but it will not be in "combat service".

 

[qwerty223]

Well, i did said b4m, among the SMs, only few of them were new built airframe, while majority were upgraded S airframe which will due to their 30th birthday soon.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

You keep saying that the Su-35 is in service there are different kinds of "service". You have the kind of service where the aircraft will participate in combat should the need arise. You also have the kind of service that are for non combat roles lie tech demonstators or trainers. So, in very technical terms, yes the su-35 is in service, but it will not be in "combat service".

Yes thats what I was trying to say.nfloorl:

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

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[qwerty223]

Don't think the L150 is anything spectacular. Already Rosoboronexport has a brochure on the L150...

Adder seeker is on the list too. I don't see any relationship that led you made such conclusion. Russian are selling everything they have, so nothing to be surprise.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Deleted

 

[qwerty223]

Well, of coz, the "everything" refers to the assets that are "appropriate" to export. I was trying to express that the ECM suit you claim to be "nothing spectacular" is not describing the picture correctly. It was part of a 90s upgrade, therefore reasonable to be no more sophisticate in the eyes of present.

Interesting enough, that if were to elaborate acording to your logic, SU-35 is definately out of the export list.

 

[Scorpion82]

Got this from the following website:
http://www.vectorsite.net/avsu27_2.html

I think the info was based on the SM version demonstrated in MAKS 2003. The original source if I'm not wrong was an air international article in 2004. I think the SM version also has the option of KNIRTI's SAP-518 jammers.


Don't think the L150 is anything spectacular. Already Rosoboronexport has a brochure on the L150...

As said until now I thought the Su-27SM would have no upgraded EWS equippment, but I'm not really surprised at all. It was time for some upgrades. The L150 is a conventional sigital RWR similar to western systems like the AN/ALR-69 or 56 for example. So really nothing special about it. It was already developed in the late 80s or early 90s for the MiG-29M/K and newer Flanker derivates such as the Su-27IB & M.

I understand the standard Su-27 has the SPO-15/L006 Beryoza and L005 Sorbtsiya. I have read a chinese source which suggested that the actual SM upgrades used the Sorbtsiya instead of the Khibiny.

The SPO-15/L006 is the standard RWR fitted to earlier Su-27 versions, including the Su-30 and Su-33. The L005/Sorbtsiya is an external jamming system which can be fitted to the wing tips instead of the launch rails. I think the system has been contineously upgraded over the years. The L175/Khibiny is AFAIK no jammer, but an ESM system which will be fitted to the new Su-35.

 

[tphuang]

All J-11B are new built. It's not an upgrade for existing airframes, but of course is the J-11B based on the Su-27SK. Despite the fact that the S-u27SM is an upgrade for existing Su-27 it features very similar improvments of the Su-27 like the J-11B.

If SAC can only improve J-11B to SM level (which is basically around MK2), then it will get zero order from PLAAF.

Really? With new air frame and everything? Because otherwise it's not a brand new plane it's just a really big upgrade.

I was asking because I thought the J-11B is supposed to be a standard J-11/Su-27 with extensive upgrades making it approach, match or even exceed the Su-30 in some aspects.

I was wandering if the Russian Air Force was going to do anything that comprehensive with their Su-27 fleet (e.i. giving them multi-role capability).

well, it's definitely lighter, uses a lot more composites, different engine, a digital FBW, complete different set of sensors and a much more power radar. su-30mk2 is a pretty low standard.

As for how J-11B compare to su-35 in a few years. In terms of RCS, there is simply a limit to how much each can decrease by. They can easily put the upgraded WS-10 engine into J-11B by the time su-35 is ready. Which means, su-35 will not have any kind of advantage in that area. In terms of missiles, China has always preferred PL-12 and PL-8B over R-77/R-73. And in terms of radar/avionics, I certainly think China can match anything that su-35 brings. I know there are a lot of news on Irbis. China has actually tried it out and found it to be a very good radar, but just not as good as the Russians advertised. Certainly, it's current radar on J-11B is at least comparable in tracking range to Irbis.

 

[Scorpion82]

China has actually tried it out and found it to be a very good radar, but just not as good as the Russians advertised. Certainly, it's current radar on J-11B is at least comparable in tracking range to Irbis.

I assume "not as good" means that it doesn't achieved the range performance often promoted? This contradicts some claims, but honestly I wouldn't wonder at all.

 

[tphuang]

I assume "not as good" means that it doesn't achieved the range performance often promoted? This contradicts some claims, but honestly I wouldn't wonder at all.

right, more specifically the claim that it can track 3 sqm targets from 400 km. I don't think plaaf got that on their tests. I think plaaf got something like 100 km vs 0.1 sqm targets. Certainly more powerful than most radar out there although it probably lights up RWR easily.

 

[Scorpion82]

right, more specifically the claim that it can track 3 sqm targets from 400 km. I don't think plaaf got that on their tests. I think plaaf got something like 100 km vs 0.1 sqm targets. Certainly more powerful than most radar out there although it probably lights up RWR easily.

That's what I thought. The 400 km figure against a 3 sqm target sounds way to much especially for a fighter sized PESA, though the Flanker itself is relative large.