Will latest F-35 problems push Norway towards a European solution?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Scorpion82

New Member
But even the advertised datalink of the future JSF is not as capable as todays Gripens.
Please back these claims up with data about transfer rates and information about the capabilities of both platforms. I often here Gripen "fans" speaking about the superior TIDLS, but interestingly no one of them has yet provided any useful information which backed up their claims.
 

Ryttare

New Member
Please back these claims up with data about transfer rates and information about the capabilities of both platforms. I often here Gripen "fans" speaking about the superior TIDLS, but interestingly no one of them has yet provided any useful information which backed up their claims.
I think you made the same question not long ago. I don't want to repeat my answers, you can start where we ended if you want to.
 

Scorpion82

New Member
I think you made the same question not long ago. I don't want to repeat my answers, you can start where we ended if you want to.
The point I want to make is that in our last discussion TIDLS didn't turn out to be such more capable as guys like you suggest. And BTW if you are so sure that the Gripens datalink will be so superior to that of the F-35 tell me which kind of datalink is the F-35 going to receive?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think you made the same question not long ago. I don't want to repeat my answers, you can start where we ended if you want to.
In the interest of continuing debate that is informative and sustained, it would be appreciated if you could come back with some degree of link or citation - even if its just referring to your previous response. Other observors may not have any clue as to your prev discussions - and may not want to trawl through "nn" posts in the vain hope of finding the responses.

So, dismissing requests outright is not terribly helpful and will just result in a degradation of debate.

One of the reasons why we are so hard on "this vs that" posts is because sustainability of claims can lead to friction and counterclaims etc.... If one makes a claim, then an attempt must be made to provide approp source material.

If we think that either party is becoming belligerent or unreasonable, then the Mods will step in and deal with it. At this point, I would regard the "request to prove" technical superiroity as something that is reasonable.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
A few things -
1) The Swedes will not use T/R modules of the vintage of those in the APG63(v)2. They will probably use UMS products, which are much more advanced. In this field, the Swedes don't have to do any leapfrogging, since others with deeper pockets & bigger customer bases have already done it, & are continuing to advance. The Swedes can buy their products.

2) The same applies to processors.

3) One critical difference between an APG79 & an APG63(v)2 is in the software: in this area, the Swedes have had practice (that's one thing building an AEW AESA radar gives you practice in, as well as the prototype construction & testing they've done in the last few years), & will be collaborating with another producer who's had more. So again, they do not need to "leapforg several steps in the technologies evoloution", as they a] have already leapfrogged some of them & b] will be able to buy in or trade for some of the leapfrogging that's already been done elsewhere.

What you're suggesting is that anyone entering a field where technology is relatively mature has to recapitulate all the steps taken to reach that maturity: not so! No gun-maker designing a new machine-gun today would start where Puckle did, or even Gatling, regardless of whether they'd ever designed a machine-gun before. They're already far ahead of that.
1) As i stated earlier the T/R modules are not the defining factor in achievening a 3rd gen (or equivelent) system, so i dont know why you brought that up. The defining factor in a 3rd gen capable system is not the array hardware itself (you remember when i said that?).

2) Same does not apply, they can use COTS for the proscessors if need be, which will quite capable. But they will not be able to use the same proscessor as used in the APG 79 and i doubt COTS will be as capable, unless the yanks will sell it, which i doubt. So they will probably use an inferior proscessor.

3) The software is the whole point if you want to achieve the advanced modes the APG 79 utilizes. And just because they've written code before does not mean they somehow have the software written or even figured out, to achieve very complex modes like EA or high capacity data transmittions. I seriosly doubt Raytheon (?) will be sharing any secrets as to how any of these advanced modes that have taken years and put loads of US cash to develope. You seem to imply that because someone else has done it, and the capability is known that developing the software is easy? EA was known to be a posibility when AESA's were envisaged, but it still took the US years to wrirte the code & develope the proscessors to allow it to come to fruition. The fact is the sweeds, & euroradar for that matter are in the same position, software wise that the americans were in several years ago, when they were developing 1st/2nd gen systems. But they'll just figure it out huh? Maybe you Europeans are just smarter eh?

Its not just "any technology" and its a hell of alot more sophistocated than a machine gun. You imply that just becasue the americans have a working system of this calibur working that ayone else who can develope the hardware can just make an APG 79, becasue the knowlage has been "shared". Not so mate. Apart from T/R and COTS proscessors the sweds and Euroradar will have to go through most of the same steps the yanks did in order to achieve an APG 79, and simplistic analogies wont change that fact.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Swerve has already answered this much better than I can, I will just add that this emphasis on radars isolated implies some kind of WW1 scenario with fighter against fighter. In the modern air war the fighters should never be alone but together with other fighters and backed up by AEW&C and/or ground radars. Therefore networking with datalinks are very important in the context.



Yes! F-35 doesn't have datalinks, or stelth, DAS or anything because there are no F-35 today. But even the advertised datalink of the future JSF is not as capable as todays Gripens.
The avionics of F-35 will probably in some areas be better than the Gripens at that time, even if it's not totally clear today. But in some areas Gripen will probably have better avionics, especially the datalink and I believe it will be a significant advantage.
Yes, fine. What is the advertised data-link of the F-35 again? Because I am certain one has not even been selected! Are you at all aware of the issues with having a "standard" emitting data-link operating from an otherwise LO aircraft?

Have a read of this article by Bill Sweetman and you can see the issues for yourself. It is not a matter of Gripen simply having a better data-link than Link 16 or whichever system you think will be fitted to the F-35. As shown in this article, the F-35 is likely to end up with 2 quite separate TDL's...

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...adline=F-22 and F-35 Suffer From Network Gaps

Yes I know that, and that's the point. What I'm talking about is the future obsolence of the structural, fixed, stealth of F-35. F-35 wont be operational for several years and is then supposed to be operated for 30-40 years and it's that time span I'm talking about.
Low observability in aircraft is a moving issue. L-M have stated publicly that both the F-22 and F-35 have a lower RCS than the F-117 aircraft. The technology has been improved and like any other technology, it's a bold and rather narrow-minded claim to say it CANNOT get better...
 

swerve

Super Moderator
1) As i stated earlier the T/R modules are not the defining factor in achievening a 3rd gen (or equivelent) system, so i dont know why you brought that up. ....
It's one fof the factors. APG63(v)2 uses big, heavy, inefficient T/R modules. You suggested they might match it, but not more recent US radars. They can buy, off the shelf, T/R modules as good as those in the later US radars you mentioned, so even with the same software as in the APG63(v)2, they'll have a better radar.

2) Same does not apply, they can use COTS for the proscessors if need be, which will quite capable. But they will not be able to use the same proscessor as used in the APG 79 and i doubt COTS will be as capable, unless the yanks will sell it, which i doubt. So they will probably use an inferior proscessor
Your assumption, but not necessarily true. Some of your other assumptions aren't.

3) The software is the whole point if you want to achieve the advanced modes the APG 79 utilizes. And just because they've written code before does not mean they somehow have the software written or even figured out, to achieve very complex modes like EA or high capacity data transmittions. I seriosly doubt Raytheon (?) will be sharing any secrets as to how any of these advanced modes that have taken years and put loads of US cash to develope. You seem to imply that because someone else has done it, and the capability is known that developing the software is easy? EA was known to be a posibility when AESA's were envisaged, but it still took the US years to wrirte the code & develope the proscessors to allow it to come to fruition. The fact is the sweeds, & euroradar for that matter are in the same position, software wise that the americans were in several years ago, when they were developing 1st/2nd gen systems. But they'll just figure it out huh? Maybe you Europeans are just smarter eh?
No, but neither are Europeans stupider. You're assuming (again!) that while the USA was spending years developing software, Europeans have done nothing, just because they haven't put equivalent radars into service. Err - no. They've been spending those years writing code, bench testing, flight testing using earlier generation arrays, etc., etc. They have (indisputably) far superior T/R modules to those in the generation of radars you assume is the best they can match. You don't know what processors & software they have.

Its not just "any technology" and its a hell of alot more sophistocated than a machine gun. You imply that just becasue the americans have a working system of this calibur working that ayone else who can develope the hardware can just make an APG 79, becasue the knowlage has been "shared". Not so mate. Apart from T/R and COTS proscessors the sweds and Euroradar will have to go through most of the same steps the yanks did in order to achieve an APG 79, and simplistic analogies wont change that fact.
No, that is not what I imply. What I have said is that the state of the art has moved on. The USA has not revealed all it's done, of course, but the body of public, & privately shared, knowledge, originating in many countries, is such that current AESA developers - and especially western firms, & even more so those in NATO countries (e.g. Selex) don't have to reiterate everything that the USA has done. They have to reiterate some (BTW, they have already reiterated a lot, something you keep ignoring), but you seem to assume they must do it all from scratch.

This is a normal process, applicable to all technologies. I used a simplistic analogy to clarify it, & remind you of it - because you seem to be unaware of it.
 

jaffo4011

New Member
we are losing the original context of this discussion again,as much as i have enjoyed it.
the problem is the long lead in time of the f35 which leaves a gap in the norwiegen defences in the medium future.debating the pros and cons of the f35 abilities in the future isnt the issue,its what could do a better job right now and is a feasible choice(ie not the f22)...

so,whats the best choice and why,in terms of the aircraft itself,systems,delivery times and cost.

lets not forget what norway actually needs out of its next major purchase...
 

Ryttare

New Member
The discussion Ryttare and me led can be found here:
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6639&page=5

Interestingly from the information available the TIDLS doesn't provide even more capabilities than MIDS at all, there might be some unique capabilities but this applies to both DLs.
Scorpion82, one has to remember that in the context of the norwegian fighter decision we have to discuss from the advertised capabilities of the comming F-35 and the alternatives at that time in the future. You might have some insights that go beyond advertised features, but I make up my mind from what's advertised as I assume most lie and hide about the same.

Thanks for providing the link, I was to tired to find it, and everyone can read it and make up their own mind.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
we are losing the original context of this discussion again,as much as i have enjoyed it.
the problem is the long lead in time of the f35 which leaves a gap in the norwiegen defences in the medium future.debating the pros and cons of the f35 abilities in the future isnt the issue,its what could do a better job right now and is a feasible choice(ie not the f22)...

so,whats the best choice and why,in terms of the aircraft itself,systems,delivery times and cost.

lets not forget what norway actually needs out of its next major purchase...
Where is that gap?
 

Ryttare

New Member
Yes, fine. What is the advertised data-link of the F-35 again? Because I am certain one has not even been selected! Are you at all aware of the issues with having a "standard" emitting data-link operating from an otherwise LO aircraft?
At this time the only possible way is to discuss this from what's advertised, and I haven't seen anyting else than it will get Link-16. It might get something better when it gets ready, or upgraded later, perhaps something like the F-22 one that I have seen very little about really. But this also applies to a fighter like Gripen, that at the same time may get som ability that isn't advertised yet.

Have a read of this article by Bill Sweetman and you can see the issues for yourself. It is not a matter of Gripen simply having a better data-link than Link 16 or whichever system you think will be fitted to the F-35. As shown in this article, the F-35 is likely to end up with 2 quite separate TDL's...

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...adline=F-22 and F-35 Suffer From Network Gaps

That link doesn't work for me, sorry.

Low observability in aircraft is a moving issue. L-M have stated publicly that both the F-22 and F-35 have a lower RCS than the F-117 aircraft. The technology has been improved and like any other technology, it's a bold and rather narrow-minded claim to say it CANNOT get better...
Structural stealth might improve in the future, but that doesn't help those who has already paid big money for JSF and expect it to be operated 30-40 years.
 

Scorpion82

New Member
I see no gap either. From the current point of view the F-35 might be available in the required time frame. Norway as well as Denmark plan to purchase 48 new fighters between 2016 and 2019. Both nations are level 3 partners, but they haven't decided yet about the purchase and will probably not do so before 2009. Both nations consider the Gripen NG and Eurofighter as well. More problematic is that the US recently insisted that partner nations might get downgraded versions as well. This was disputed in 2006, but seems now to be a given fact. The question is how a downgraded F-35 will look like. On one hand I can understand the US not being willed to share their latest and best technologies, on the other hand I can understand the participating nations not to commit to the purchase yet and to consider alternatives.
 

Scorpion82

New Member
Thanks for the link GD. But that doesn't change the fact that deliveries are not scheduled before 2016 and that is what is relevant.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Thanks for the link GD. But that doesn't change the fact that deliveries are not scheduled before 2016 and that is what is relevant.
It does show that the Norwegian delivery schedule is more compressed than the Danish - i.e. could be an indication of less flexibility if delays of actual significance materialise.

(But as you said it is a good link, so decided to post it, though it is a bit marginal.;))
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
It's one fof the factors. APG63(v)2 uses big, heavy, inefficient T/R modules. You suggested they might match it, but not more recent US radars. They can buy, off the shelf, T/R modules as good as those in the later US radars you mentioned, so even with the same software as in the APG63(v)2, they'll have a better radar.
Even if they have more efficient T/R modules this will not dramatically increase the radars performance. The point i was making was the various modes available on the system would (should) not be as various or capable as a 3rd gen US system. THAT capability is dictated by software and signal proscessing capability, and newer T/R wont change that one bit, so you would have a slightly more efficient but comperble radar


Your assumption, but not necessarily true. Some of your other assumptions aren't.
Cute. Were in the public domain mate, all we can do is make logical assumptions. If you want facts on radar array development either go work for Raytheon or Euroradar or stop talkning about it in public forums because your not going to find them out here.

No, but neither are Europeans stupider. You're assuming (again!) that while the USA was spending years developing software, Europeans have done nothing, just because they haven't put equivalent radars into service. Err - no. They've been spending those years writing code, bench testing, flight testing using earlier generation arrays, etc., etc. They have (indisputably) far superior T/R modules to those in the generation of radars you assume is the best they can match. You don't know what processors & software they have.
No i havent assumed that the europeans have done nothing. But what is a fact is that the APG 79/77/81 familly has benifited from a decade of development, the largest AESA R&D budget in the world, and lessons from 2 previous generations of OPERATIONAL radar systems. By claiming that the first OPERATIONAL EU radar will be as capable (which you continually have, either directly or by disputing the opposite view) you are stating that EU will have done all that with less money, less people and in less time becasue of some COTS improvements (COTS is still inferior to most US kits, and 3rd gen T/R modules will be better than anything on the public market, and thats not an assumption i mind making at all) and that somehow because some of the cabailities of US systmes are known (even though how these capabilities are achieved is classified) that the europeans can just emulate and bingo you've got a state of the art radar, comperable to the best US systems which will have gone through several software upgrades between then and now (F-22A has had 3)! Your right i dont know what software Euroradar has written or what proscessors they have or what T/R modules thay have, but i'll quite happily put my money on the fact they dont make up a 10 year deficit in development with significantly less money because of COTS improvements and some non existent (classifiied) technology transfer.

By the way i did say that i would have no problem with CAESAR being as capable (menaing comperable or slightly better) than the APG 63 (v)2, what you implying is that it WILL be as good as an APG 63(v)3.

No, that is not what I imply. What I have said is that the state of the art has moved on. The USA has not revealed all it's done, of course, but the body of public, & privately shared, knowledge, originating in many countries, is such that current AESA developers - and especially western firms, & even more so those in NATO countries (e.g. Selex) don't have to reiterate everything that the USA has done. They have to reiterate some (BTW, they have already reiterated a lot, something you keep ignoring), but you seem to assume they must do it all from scratch.

This is a normal process, applicable to all technologies. I used a simplistic analogy to clarify it, & remind you of it - because you seem to be unaware of it.
There you make an assumption that US developers somehow share the (classified) advanced work they have done to create a system as capable as the APG 79, which cost them billions and gives them a huge competitive advantage. Why, because they're nice? LOL, i doubt it. Take OHR tech as an example. Do you think we've shared any of the classified advanced work that has gone into JORN with the europeans (or even US for that matter)? Sure the basic principles may be known (they would have been theoretical before anyway) but you claim that becasue we have achieved a highly capable working system, that a 3rd party can do it much faster, significantly cheaper, not have to work out as many bugs and get a system as capable 1st shot, in addition to making good any upgrades we do in the mean time? Why becasue the "state of the art" has moved on? Sure. Your right, the europeans wont have to retrace ALL of the steps the yanks did, the basic stuffwount have to be rediscovered, but the basic stuff is the easy bit, thats why i said i would have no problem comparing CEASAR's capabilities to a US 2nd gen system (it may even be better). But to claim that somehow EU developers will make godd the serious deficit they now have compared to advanced US systems, and then site COTS improvemenst and a slow but steady (and much less funded) R&D development spiral as evidence (and classified tech transfer) does not sound reasonable, AT ALL to me. Remeber US efforts arn't standing still either. But since we dont know i guess anythings possible right?
 
Last edited:
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
At this time the only possible way is to discuss this from what's advertised, and I haven't seen anyting else than it will get Link-16. It might get something better when it gets ready, or upgraded later, perhaps something like the F-22 one that I have seen very little about really. But this also applies to a fighter like Gripen, that at the same time may get som ability that isn't advertised yet.
Yet you are prepared to state here that the data-link in the Gripen is "better"?

F-35 is likely to get Link-16. It will in fact also get multiple data-links, with Link-16, the Harris radio systems MADL (Multifunction Advanced Data-Link) plus the new Tactical targeting network technology (TTNT) which works through a fighter aircraft's radio systems and allows data transmission rates of up to 2mbs per second at ranges up to 100nm.


That link doesn't work for me, sorry.
You need to remove the defence-talk referral in front of the address bar for it to work. I just checked, the link still works.

Structural stealth might improve in the future, but that doesn't help those who has already paid big money for JSF and expect it to be operated 30-40 years.
Only if you believe radars are going to get fantastically more powerful over the next 30 years, whilst simultaneously getting smaller so they can actually fit onto weapons, unless you think "Sparrow styled" semi-active radar homing is the "way of the future"...
 
Last edited by a moderator:

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Structural stealth might improve in the future, but that doesn't help those who has already paid big money for JSF and expect it to be operated 30-40 years.
Cut and paste of a previous discussion re stealth:

Response Posted by gf0012-aust said:
Originally Posted by locutus said:
gf0012-aust,

I've been having a discussion with a friend of mine about stealth. We both believe a counter to stealth will be found. Of course, how long it will take is one question. Whether it takes one year or twenty-five years, what happens to stealth technology then? Does it become obsolete and a waste of money?

Short answer - no.
Long answer - continue on reading. :D

I think there are a couple of things that need to be determined first.
The most obvious is the definition of "stealth". Stealth is currently a buzzword typically thrown around in debate, and usually (and most commonly) with reference to platforms like the F-22 and JSF.

I guess at a personal level I get a bit irritated at that view as it dumbs down a very complex subject into a packaged "retail" type answer.

The whole basis of stealth is one of "low observability". very few people in industry use the term "stealth" as it's incorrect - it leads to follow on arguments by the more enthusiastic but less technically astute to also mumble about "invisibility" - when its clearly not.

So, LO platforms have been around for a while and need to be considered in the construct of an ability of a sensor system to correctly identify and respond defensively. The history of LO aerial management is important to look at as it shows why LO adapts and evolves and why it’s a moving feast that can't be pigeonholed as an obsolescent capability. I.e. it’s evolved over the last 90 years and will continue to evolve.

So, if I give a really brief history of Stealth concepts based around LO requirements, then it would be as follows:

E.g. the first stealth aircraft was in 1912 - it was a Taube biplane that had clear cellophane type skin named Emaillit to make it transparent vis a vis it's "bulk". LO was regarded as a visibility issue.

The second stealth aircraft was in 1913, (it was a monoplane) - the Germans decided to take it one step further and decided to retain the cellophane surface but to also paint the frame the same colour as the sky, i.e. blue/grey.

The third iteration of this was when the Germans fielded modified Fokker E111's in 1916; Emaillit was replaced with "Cellon". They then tried the same tech on a variety of different aircraft including an albatross, aviatik, rumpler and even a few bombers (VGO-1 and an R-1) so, as can be seen nice idea in principle, but ignored the fact that the engine, fuel tank and pilot were sitting up in the air for everyone to see.

But it did show lateral thinking. LO was regarded as an extension of the previous management of visibility issue. Both concepts failed as the cellophane material actually behaved like a reflector, and the pilots spent most of their time "snow blind" due to reflections. On top of that, Cellon was a material developed for the automobile industry and was applied by soaking it in water, and then stretching it over the airframe. The problem here was that when it rained, the Cellon started to expand, and thus become loose. Not exactly the best thing for an aircraft skin to do... ;)

The next LO aircraft (in relation to enemy sensor systems being able to identify it and respond) was when the British used to run what was called "ferret missions" into the Soviet Union in the late 1940's and 1950's. The British used modified EE Canberra’s. When the Soviets developed more persistently competent missiles, radar systems and procedures to intercept, the west coast hi-speed low level ferret missions were reduced and eventually stopped. LO was regarded as low level and high speed as the Soviets did not have radar systems that could deal with low level hi speed entry, and their method of controlling gave the advantage to the ingressing aircraft. At one point the English also went high altitude as the lightened Canberras couldn't be intercepted by the Soviets (this changed once decent SAMs were bought into play). The Canberra btw was used as initially the RAF were badging USAF B-45 Tornados (which were flying lemons)

As a legacy of the success and superiority of the EE Canberra’s, the US then developed their own solution which emerged as the U2 and family. The U2 was considered LO due to a number of reasons, primarily the fact that for a short window of time the Soviets were unable to reach out and touch it. This changed with the arrival of the SA-2.

So the absolute advantage of high altitude to escape SAMs changed the LO requirement immediately. The requirement for LO management then turned to high speed high altitude aircraft.

The first purpose built LO aircraft was the A-12. It was considered LO as the Soviets could not and did not have any system capable of intercepting it. Even though it was "hot" and radar visible, the Soviets had no system capable of catching it - even when they volleyed intercepts. The LO management was high speed, high altitude where the enemy had no meaningful and managed capability to intercept even though the aircraft traffic was identified (not the plane though).

The follow on to the A-12 was the RS/SR-71 Blackbird. What's significant about the RS/SR-71 was that it was the bigger cousin to the A-12. What's even more significant was that it was a much harder beast to see and intercept. The fundamental reason was that not only was it finished in signature managing technologies, but when they discovered the impact of chine’s around the nose cone area, they were able to reduce its frontal aspect radar emitting footprint by 90%. The LO management was high speed, high altitude, onboard Elint and shape management.

At the same time that the SR-71 was in play, the US had also started to use unmanned aircraft for subsonic, low altitude recce. Again, the environment they were used in gave the US advantages. Although they lost a number of platforms, it was regarded as a success as it acted as the development vehicle for UAV's, RAM management, signature management, and it involved the enemy reacting to the threat and thus providing USAF escorting aircraft with harvesting opportunities. The Firebees/Lightning bugs were used in various guises, not just low level, so they were an adaptive platform.

The LO management was subsonic, low, medium, high altitude, surface management (they actually used RAM "blankets") and in some cases, the use of escorting aircraft as emission benefactors (such as Wild Weasels). They also developed Elint versions of these platforms (147TE). The final product development would have been a low footprint high altitude model to be used over China referred to as the 154.

The next series of LO aircraft basically were from the "Senior xxxx", "Have xxxx" and "Tacit xxxx" series of platforms. These were completely different in their LO management, and this was due to a number of reasons. One was the final comprehension of some study done by Bahret (US, and radar cross sections), Wright (US and RAM development)

The real breakthrough though was due to some Lockheed staff (Schroeder and Overholser). They came up with the concept of faceting. The original equations for faceting were done by a Scotsman named Maxwell.

These were then modified by a German electromagnetic expert named Sommerfield who developed signature management equations for simple shapes. This was followed up by some discoveries by a Russian named Ufmitsev who came up with an approach that could be applied to more complex shapes such as discs. The Russian is often touted as being the key to the development of "Stealth" - he is not, but he is one individual along a long line of others who contributed to the comprehension of LO management in its infancy.

What bought Maxwell, Sommerfield and Ufmitsev's calculations and mathematical assumptions to fruition were the improvements made in Computing. Schroder and Overholser were able to marry all of the previous work into a computer model and then made their own breakthroughs.

I'll ignore current LO trends as otherwise response this will turn into a book.....

So, why the long winded history lesson? ;) Well, that’s because "Stealth" or more correctly LO platforms are a moving feast, a moving technological development where the capability evolves against the response. What was regarded as "Stealthy" even 25 years ago is now obsolete and replaced with new technology concepts.

It's a mistake to look at Stealth as a single technology entity - it’s not, and that why when you get people stating that bi-static radar, or OTHR or sympathetically merged commercial solutions such as mobile phone towers hooked into the sensor grid make it redundant, then they ignore the fact that the technology is not static. It ignores things such as the fact that sensor systems find it very hard to discriminate between nature and manufacture, e.g. there is a reason why the west chose subsonic cruise missiles over supersonics - and it’s tied into the history of stealth/LO development. The classic example of that is HALSOL (as a concept)

e.g., the F-22 can literally be LO managed due to its design.
Something simple like sensor arrays along the wings are able to be upgraded or improved via software. The F-22 will continue to have a role as the capability to identify it and commit to it is "not easy". The plane is not "invincible" and it’s not "invisible" - but it’s not meant to be - it’s meant to be able to be used as part of a package to exploit a weakness in the defenders grid so that other assets can bring their own "additional" sympathetic violence or electronic "wedge" to bear.

The danger is that some amateurs (and I don't mean that to be disrespectful and am making a sweeping statement out of convenience to clarify positions) only consider single platforms, they don't understand, comprehend or appreciate that response is about packages and systems. It’s also why this forum doesn't allow "this vs. that" threads as it just dumbs down the debate to a meaningless cycle of "mines bigger than yours"

As an observation, IMO the next LO platform in real terms will be hypersonics, as it is the next leap forward where existing sensor systems struggle to cope with intercepting it in time. It will then adapt to MIRVed responses on top of that hypersonic vehicle, and it will include (as the Russians have hinted at) controlled flight MIRV's. I would think that controlled flight MIRV's would have a degree of AI rather than just the Yakhont type "pop-up" "pop down" characteristics.

In a weapons management sense, miniaturisation of the prev weapons into carriers such as the F-22 make it even more relevant, when you consider that the F-22 will operate as part of a package with Compass and Rivet support, Prowler/Growler, an ability to hook into ForceNET etc etc... You can start to understand that LO participation in future wars is here to stay.

There will always be evolving counter solutions to any effective capability, but LO has been in play now for over 95 years, and we're already onto 6th and 7th generation solutions at the UAV level


Btw, I haven't even touched on LO management for ships and subs - and that’s a topic in its own right a well.
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2972
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
GF that was a great post.. A good read. I was unaware of the use of celafane in WW1. Cant have done much for the integrity of the aircrafts skin!

Perhaps themost pertinant point you raised there was the way many of us view and compare various platforms, i.e. which one is better/more capable. perhaps the best way to compare various platforms is the individual capabilities they provide and the way they complement your wider system including ground based radar, AEW&C, C4ISR, other platforms and missiles. Organizational comparisons are the only relevent ones, rather than just platforms.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top