Class of Air Warfare Destroyers for Aus

astrolopitec

New Member
I'd just like to mention that the F100s are perfectly capable of guiding misiles fired from the ANZACs. And that through link-16. The AZACS and even the LHDs will be able to see and use Aegis data just as if they were sitting in the control room of the AWDs.
I would also like to point out that the 48 cell park. Has not stoped the Armada from ordering a first lot of 24 Tomahawks.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I'd just like to mention that the F100s are perfectly capable of guiding misiles fired from the ANZACs. And that through link-16. The AZACS and even the LHDs will be able to see and use Aegis data just as if they were sitting in the control room of the AWDs.
I would also like to point out that the 48 cell park. Has not stoped the Armada from ordering a first lot of 24 Tomahawks.
No it can't. Link-16 in its current form can't be used for guiding missiles. Both ships will need the CEC upgrade which is something in addition to Link-16.
 

astrolopitec

New Member
Link-16 is used to share real time information. Aegis is the one that can guide missiles regardless of the firing platform.

At one point the US even considered the idea of "cheap" magazine ships. Who's huge missile parks would be controlled by Burkes. But they dropped the idea.
I mean... With 60 Burkes who needs magazine ships ?!
 
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AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Link-16 does share information in real time, BUT you can only use it for targeting if both ships have CEC. If both ships don't have CEC then you can't use another ships missiles.
 

Transient

Member
Hello, AegisFC. Is it best for Australia to invest in CEC? Last I heard, CEC was on hold since the USN and other services were evaluating another SIAP program as an alternative to CEC block 2. Do you think Australia should wait and see until a decision is made, if that's true? How widely fielded is CEC in the USN as of now? Is it in the 7th fleet at least?
 

Markus40

New Member
Actually you are wrong in the assumption on the Falklands. These are following that SUNK during the Falklands campaign. I will try and remind you:

HMS Ardent, HMS Sheffield, HMS Antelope, HMS Coventry and not to mention the two Landing ships. If you want to check out the facts and really get them straight it wasnt so much the strike but the materials and infrastructure that caught FIRE due to the intense heat. Its since then that the materials that go into designing and building warships have changed. Having those ships NOT sink is a tribute to the brave sailors who fought to try and stop the fires from spreading and giving enough time for the others to get of the Warship, while they themselves burnt to death fighting the fires.

If you want to also check your history, and it would seem for a person in a position as yourself you dont really have a clue, but i can fill you in that a simple strike on the USS Cole rendered the ship useless. Give that some thought when talking about the G&C option.

An Iranian strike on the USS Stark being relatively small put the ship out of action. Missiles on board are useless unless the ship is survivable, and so far there isnt one that i know of that can sustain that type of damage and continue normal operations against an enemy. Sorry Popeye but your reasoning requires you now to take a second dose of your medication.



A defence specialist perhaps, but not of defence history?

Check out how long British Frigates took to sink in the Falklands. Check out how much damage they absorbed WITHOUT sinking.

The point being, a few cannon rounds may damage a launcher to the point it can't be fired and yet not cause the magazine to explode.

An F-100 would be essentially defenceless under such a scenario without a separate CIWS or VLS system. Hence the G&C seeming a MUCH more survivable platform...
 

Markus40

New Member
I think too that there is a strong possibility that more than one F100 would be assigned together if deployed thus diversifying the numbers of delivery systems among the 2 or more F100. So i still think the F100 is formidable together along with the ANZACs in being able to give the fleet 24 hour and 360 degree protection. Much of what we are talking about is pure speculation. Despite knowing the numbers ASROC is vital along with SM2s and ESSMs. I believe at this stage having this capability still gives the fleet an umbrella of protection that is unpresident and extremely potent.




If I have computer access in my nursing home in 2037 I'll be very interested to read about the cabinet discussions re this decision. Admiral Shalders did seem happy after the two ships were announced but we need to remember that he had only two options:
Option 1 Publicly support the government's decision and show enthusiasm for the benefit of naval morale.
Option 2 Resign as CNS!

I suspect that he may have been won over by a promise that a fourth ship would at least be considered. It may also be that the money saved from the F100 selection was linked to the selection of the BPE for the amphibious forces. It may be that he has been given commitments that the F100 will be fully equipped with every available option (e.g. CIWS 'fitted' whereas the Armada ships are fitted 'for but not with' CIWS), including perhaps a consideration of some design upgrades (but I think this possibility is unlikely). Whatever the reasons we will have to wait a long time to find out but that is one of the things that makes a study of naval history interesting.

Re the missile fitout, I agree with AD that the most likely 'normal' loadout will be 40 SM-2/6 and 32 ESSM (8 cells) plus 8 Harpoon (quad cannisters). In some circumstances in the future it is possible that approx 8 SM-3 could be added for BMD. Personally I think the acquisition of Tomahawk has faded somewhat with the selection of the F100. If carried I suspect they would be instead of rather than as well as SM-3. Had the G&C design been chosen I think the ESSM load may have been 64 but I expect 32 will be the usual number on the F100s. Re ASROC, I'm unaware of any consideration of this weapon by the RAN. I expect ASW to be handled primarily by the helicopter. It's a pity there will only be one but the Canberras will be able to help out in this regard.

Cheers
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
Was their not talk of the US phasing ASROCs out due to limited effectiveness in Littoral waters?

Also I thought I noted a anti ship mortar on the F100 when will fit out such as this and CIWS be defined?
 

Markus40

New Member
Well if thats the case does the F100 and the ANZAC have the CEC?


Link-16 does share information in real time, BUT you can only use it for targeting if both ships have CEC. If both ships don't have CEC then you can't use another ships missiles.
 

Markus40

New Member
Yes it is Rubbish, the F100 is a very capable warship.

Good to see another Kiwi on board. Cheers.



From where I sit on the other side of the tasman I believe the F100 provides the best platform with the least risk involved and lord knows the ADF has experienced its fair share of problems with its recent purchases. Having been on board a F100 it is an impressive ship (although I really only have a ANZAC to compare it with) and all the prior discussions regarding not having enough VLS is rubbish. The ADF is not going to go to war with an opponent which will have the ability to overwhelm the defences of these ships except in a coalition environment.
Once again well done and I will just sit here with jealousy:D
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Actually you are wrong in the assumption on the Falklands. These are following that SUNK during the Falklands campaign. I will try and remind you:

HMS Ardent, HMS Sheffield, HMS Antelope, HMS Coventry and not to mention the two Landing ships. If you want to check out the facts and really get them straight it wasnt so much the strike but the materials and infrastructure that caught FIRE due to the intense heat. Its since then that the materials that go into designing and building warships have changed. Having those ships NOT sink is a tribute to the brave sailors who fought to try and stop the fires from spreading and giving enough time for the others to get of the Warship, while they themselves burnt to death fighting the fires.

If you want to also check your history, and it would seem for a person in a position as yourself you dont really have a clue, but i can fill you in that a simple strike on the USS Cole rendered the ship useless. Give that some thought when talking about the G&C option.

An Iranian strike on the USS Stark being relatively small put the ship out of action. Missiles on board are useless unless the ship is survivable, and so far there isnt one that i know of that can sustain that type of damage and continue normal operations against an enemy. Sorry Popeye but your reasoning requires you now to take a second dose of your medication.

Its a good point. haveing all your mark 41 VLS's in the one place wont really decrease the vessels survivability. If the ship takes a direct hit anywere its not going to be able to fire them. IIRC in the falklands a type 42 was hit by a Mk82 bumb iron that didnt detonate. It had a 1M hole in the side. However it still stoped the vessel from using sea dart. Same deal here. Even if the VLS were in 2 different positions, if the vessel takes a direct hit anywere it wont be using anything but point defence. Allthough if the VLS is your only point defence system then its a bit of a wory. At least with a coulple of SEA RAM or Phalanx the she can defend herself from a 2nd impact. I hope the Australianised F100 has a point defence system and isn't just going to rely on ESSM.
 

Markus40

New Member
Talking about the Falkand s War i am constantly amazed as to why more British Ships didnt go down. There is a mixture of reasons, but one of them is that the cueing and directional radar couldnt differentiate a cluster of A4s or Mirages coming over the San Carlos waters. This even included the new Seawolf Missile at that time which due to the clutter of other ships in the region and the close proximity of the hills just in front of them couldnt pick them off quickly. Many times the boggies were on top of them before they could get a shot away.

Its only by shear luck, and geographic location, and the skill of the Harriers that kept them at Bay. Just my thoughts.


Its a good point. haveing all your mark 41 VLS's in the one place wont really decrease the vessels survivability. If the ship takes a direct hit anywere its not going to be able to fire them. IIRC in the falklands a type 42 was hit by a Mk82 bumb iron that didnt detonate. It had a 1M hole in the side. However it still stoped the vessel from using sea dart. Same deal here. Even if the VLS were in 2 different positions, if the vessel takes a direct hit anywere it wont be using anything but point defence. Allthough if the VLS is your only point defence system then its a bit of a wory. At least with a coulple of SEA RAM or Phalanx the she can defend herself from a 2nd impact. I hope the Australianised F100 has a point defence system and isn't just going to rely on ESSM.
 

Galrahn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
There really isn't much information regarding the deployment of CEC, although there is some information out there about it.

A good accounting of CEC potential in this report from Robert Work.

Unlike the NTDS, which uses Links 11 and 16 to transmit commands among network platforms, which then fire defensive missiles based on fire control data from their own onboard sensors, a CEC-equipped platform uses directional antennas to transmit the raw radar data from its onboard radars to nearby ships and aircraft in the local CEC-network. These platforms, in turn, pass the data onto other ships and aircraft. In each ship or aircraft receiving the data, CEC hardware and software integrates the data of all SPY-1 Aegis radars—as well as other radar sensors such as the APS-145 surveillance radar on the E-2C Hawkeye carrier-based air battle management aircraft—to form “composite tracks” for all potential targets. By then sharing and integrating the “composite tracks,” a CEC engagement network can form a “single, real-time, fire-control-quality composite track picture.”227 In other words, CEC engagement networks should be able to achieve a single integrated air picture (SIAP)—the holy grail for naval (and air and ground) air defenses. If so, the implications for task force defense will be profound. CEC-enabled engagement networks will extend the range at which any given ship can engage a target to well beyond its own radar horizon. Indeed, a CEC-equipped ship will be able to fire at a target that would not normally be seen, much less tracked, by its own sensors. Said another way, a CEC-equipped ship operating near shore, well inside an enemy’s A2/AD network, will be able to use data from airborne sensors like those carried by the E-2C Hawkeye to see “through” terrain that would normally mask its own sensors.

With weapons that can engage on remote—that is, be guided toward their targets using offboard sensors like the E-2C’s radar—a ship will be able to fire at air and missile threats while they are still deep inland, long before they are in their terminal attack runs. This will allow the surface combatant fleet to protect naval units operating in close-in littoral waters, offshore, and to extend its own air defense umbrella over joint forces operating ashore. Moreover, because most stealthy platforms are only “invisible” from certain radar aspects (e.g., head-on), and because CEC tracks will be developed along multiple radar bearings, CEC also promises to be able to detect and track stealthy aircraft and cruise missiles over both land and sea.228 Like early NTDS engagement networks, early CEC engagement networks have some limitations.

Each platform in a current CEC network only communicates with the two platforms nearest to it, passing on all plots it receives. Because none of the plots passing through the sending platform are edited out, the data load on the system rises as the square of the number of participants. As a result, in order to keep the data current, today’s CEC networks are currently limited to only 19 participants.229 However, as was also the case with the NTDS, with further doctrinal, technical, and experimental development, the CEC seems certain to expand in both capability and effectiveness over time. For example, CEC engagement networks will soon be able to integrate non-radar sensor data from electronic intelligence or other links to further improve the quality of air and missile tracks. Future CEC networks, equipped with even more powerful processing capabilities, will likely be able to expand beyond the current 19-ship limit.

To exploit the power of new CEC-enabled engagement networks, naval Area Air Defense Coordinators onboard Ticonderoga-class CGs will soon be assisted by the new Area Air Defense Command Capability System (AADCCS). The AADCCS is a three-dimensional collaborative force planning tool designed to give a “god’s eye view” of the air and surface space around a CEC-equipped task group, including friendly forces, neutral contacts, and hostile aircraft, cruise missiles, and ballistic missiles—along with their headings and impact zones. Using this information, the AADCCS can generate new network air defense plans in minutes. The Navy hopes that the introduction of the AADCCS and CEC will substantially improve the ability of naval battle networks to withstand attacks from enemy A2/AD networks—at least long enough until joint offensive counter-network operations can beat them down.
I am not familiar with any ships over the US Navy having CEC, but I could be wrong. I can't imagine why any country allied with the US wouldn't want CEC on their AEGIS air defense ships, if anything just to be able to take advantage of the tactical information network being accumulated by the various platforms. It may be that it currently isn't available for export though, I don't really know that answer.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Actually you are wrong in the assumption on the Falklands. These are following that SUNK during the Falklands campaign. I will try and remind you:

HMS Ardent, HMS Sheffield, HMS Antelope, HMS Coventry and not to mention the two Landing ships. If you want to check out the facts and really get them straight it wasnt so much the strike but the materials and infrastructure that caught FIRE due to the intense heat. Its since then that the materials that go into designing and building warships have changed. Having those ships NOT sink is a tribute to the brave sailors who fought to try and stop the fires from spreading and giving enough time for the others to get of the Warship, while they themselves burnt to death fighting the fires.

If you want to also check your history, and it would seem for a person in a position as yourself you dont really have a clue, but i can fill you in that a simple strike on the USS Cole rendered the ship useless. Give that some thought when talking about the G&C option.

An Iranian strike on the USS Stark being relatively small put the ship out of action. Missiles on board are useless unless the ship is survivable, and so far there isnt one that i know of that can sustain that type of damage and continue normal operations against an enemy. Sorry Popeye but your reasoning requires you now to take a second dose of your medication.
Yes they sunk.

HMS Alacrity, HMS Glasmorgan, HMS Arrow, HMS Glasgow, HMS Antrim, HMS Broadsword, HMS Argonaut, HMS Brilliant, RFA Sir Tristram and HMS Glamorgan all suffered battle damage to various degrees, didn't sink and most of them were made operational again within days.

At any rate we were discussing REDUNDANCY in a vessel that you seem to have forgotten.

F-100 has 1VLS system comprising 48x cells and provides ALL the offensive anti-air capabilities of the frigate.

The G&C design carried 2x VLS systems for a total of 64x cells with room to grow and include an additional 16x cells, plus it had space for 2x CIWS built into the design.

F-100 doesn't carry 1x CIWS.

Forget about your snide remarks and insults and concentrate on remembering the topic for a second.

You won't be warned again. Stay on topic or face a ban.

Your choice.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Yes it is Rubbish, the F100 is a very capable warship.
.
The F100 is a good platform, its more capable than anything the RAN has got their hands on previously, however it lackes behind the "baby burke" in allmost every operational peramiter.

I know you think that 48 VLS cells is more than enough for the current threat environment in the south pacific/indian. The air threat in the region (apart from PLAAF) isn't capable of swamping swarm attacks that will require more than 20+ SM2's. But the question isn't is the F100 good enough in the current threat environment, it is however wether the evolving regional threat will outstrip the F100's limmited room for growth.

Sure its primary function will be AW and asset protection, but as the needs of the RAn and the region change so will the platform. What if the AWD was needed to undertake a large land attack capability, with 12+ TLAMS??? The babay burke could carry 16 TLAMS and still posess a better AAW capability than a F100 with a pure ESSM/SM2 load (annother fire controll channel), The F100 would sacrifice a third of its loadout for the same capability. If there is a larger submarine theat, the baby burke could load 16 ASROCS with the same deal, except it could deploy 2 ASW helos. And thats just the advantage in the VLS and hangar loadout.

What happens when more room is needed for multiple ISR UAV's and the equipment to use and maintain them???? Restricted because of a lack of space. What happens when you want to isntall a HEL point defence system??? no room for power generation or cooling/chemicals (depending on the laser) because we went for the option which was good in 2007 but not 2027.

As far as i can see the only advantage the F100 has over the baby burke is its a proven design, and it may be slightly cheaper (it was more expensive than we all thought), on allmost every other peramiter the baby burke was more capable, flexible and allowed for more growth. Dont get me wrong, the F100 is a very capable platform and marks a huge capability boost for the RAN, but it was the wrong choice IMO. IF however we do get 4 F100's instead of 3 baby burkes i will have to stand corrected.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Yes they sunk.

HMS Alacrity, HMS Glasmorgan, HMS Arrow, HMS Glasgow, HMS Antrim, HMS Broadsword, HMS Argonaut, HMS Brilliant, RFA Sir Tristram and HMS Glamorgan all suffered battle damage to various degrees, didn't sink and most of them were made operational again within days.


they were mission kills though, which is as good as sunk

At any rate we were discussing REDUNDANCY in a vessel that you seem to have forgotten.

F-100 has 1VLS system comprising 48x cells and provides ALL the offensive anti-air capabilities of the frigate.

The G&C design carried 2x VLS systems for a total of 64x cells with room to grow and include an additional 16x cells, plus it had space for 2x CIWS built into the design.

F-100 doesn't carry 1x CIWS.
Your right about the point defence system, only relying on the VLS as your only ASM defence is a tad dangerous. Personaly i dont see the point in splitting up your VLS in the name of redundency, if any of its critical systems are damaged then SM2/ESSM will be useless anyway, and those critical systems are in the superstructure for the most part.

Point defence is annother story, well worth the redundency because you at least need one. and the fact that the F100 has the same CIWS as the ANZAC i.e. none, is not a good idea. We would have got two with the baby burke.

Forget about your snide remarks and insults and concentrate on remembering the topic for a second.

You won't be warned again. Stay on topic or face a ban.

Your choice.
I'm suprised your being this gratious at this time in the morning AD:D , i'm not sure i would. personaly i cant tell if its militious or not though?????
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
they were mission kills though, which is as good as sunk
Not all. Some were operational whilst repairs were made. In general however I agree that a ship that suffers an ASM or bomb strike is going to be in a bad way and it's operational utility will remain limited.

However operational utility and entire loss of self defence capability are 2 VERY different things...



Your right about the point defence system, only relying on the VLS as your only ASM defence is a tad dangerous. Personaly i dont see the point in splitting up your VLS in the name of redundency, if any of its critical systems are damaged then SM2/ESSM will be useless anyway, and those critical systems are in the superstructure for the most part.

Point defence is annother story, well worth the redundency because you at least need one. and the fact that the F100 has the same CIWS as the ANZAC i.e. none, is not a good idea. We would have got two with the baby burke.
As above, I agree. RIM-116 RAM or a 35mm Millenium gun should be an absolute "no brainer" for each class of vessel.

It's interesting that both the ANZAC's AND AWD's now appear as if they will not operate a CIWS system of any kind...



I'm suprised your being this gratious at this time in the morning AD:D , i'm not sure i would. personaly i cant tell if its militious or not though?????
Only got home from work about an hour ago.

Plus I don't need to resort to petty insults to argue a point... :D
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Not all. Some were operational whilst repairs were made. In general however I agree that a ship that suffers an ASM or bomb strike is going to be in a bad way and it's operational utility will remain limited.

However operational utility and entire loss of self defence capability are 2 VERY different things...

As above, I agree. RIM-116 RAM or a 35mm Millenium gun should be an absolute "no brainer" for each class of vessel.

It's interesting that both the ANZAC's AND AWD's now appear is if they will not operate a CIWS system...
Has CIWS become a dirty frase in the RAN, none of our surface combattants will have one by the looks of things??? I thought we were taking the ASM threat seriously???

Annother great long term desision by the MOD. Though i cant be too critical i suppose. I'm stoked over the BPE. Navantia must have done some great "wining and dining" in canberra over the last 6 months, because the F100 purchase just doesent make any real sence given the price tag. the mistral was a proven design but they still chose the BPE. I just hope the 1000 tonne larger "Australianized" version, that will at least have 1 phallanx/ SEA RAM mount.


Only got home from work about an hour ago.

Plus I don't need to resort to petty insults to argue a point... :D
Ouch.... long nite huh???? Now i'm even more supprised at the restraint youve shown. If i'd just got home from work it would have been :lul

In my experiance when someone gets personal its usually the sign of a weak argument, except i cant really see the "heated debate" in this instance, just that Markus likes the F100 and the ANZAC, no reason to get in a fuss and make personal remarks that get webbie envolved (allthough there's never a good reason to get personal, but there wasn't even provokation in this instance). Do you too have any history????
 
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