Class of Air Warfare Destroyers for Aus

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
As above, I agree. RIM-116 RAM or a 35mm Millenium gun should be an absolute "no brainer" for each class of vessel.

It's interesting that both the ANZAC's AND AWD's now appear as if they will not operate a CIWS system of any kind...

:D
Agreed and I just can't understand the move away from CIWS. Even the USN has dropped CIWS from the Flight IIA Arleigh Burkes although the earlier ABs had two!

The F100 does include provision for one CIWS but it is not fitted in the Armada units. At the very least the Hobart class should be fitted with the 21 cell RAM or a 35mm Millenium gun (mounted at the rear of the hangar) for close range anti missile defence, backed by 2x 25mm Typhoon and 4x 12.7mm MG (preferably including 2 Mini Typhoon) for close in surface defence. Regarding the manual MGs I also think the RAN should follow the USN and mount its manual 12.7mm MGs in twin mountings (deployed USN ships in the Gulf, etc, now carry at least 4 twin MGs). I guess that the RAN has a large number of single 12.7mm MGs in its inventory. Changing to twins, however, would be a cheap investment when we consider the cost of the assets to be protected.

Cheers
 

Markus40

New Member
The F100 doesnt carry one CIWS?

Answer:

The Close-In Weapon System (CIWS) is the 20mm Meroka 2B also from FABA. The Meroka CIWS includes infra-red camera, video autotracker and is cued by the Aegis radar. Meroka has a range of 2,000m.




Yes they sunk.

HMS Alacrity, HMS Glasmorgan, HMS Arrow, HMS Glasgow, HMS Antrim, HMS Broadsword, HMS Argonaut, HMS Brilliant, RFA Sir Tristram and HMS Glamorgan all suffered battle damage to various degrees, didn't sink and most of them were made operational again within days.

At any rate we were discussing REDUNDANCY in a vessel that you seem to have forgotten.

F-100 has 1VLS system comprising 48x cells and provides ALL the offensive anti-air capabilities of the frigate.

The G&C design carried 2x VLS systems for a total of 64x cells with room to grow and include an additional 16x cells, plus it had space for 2x CIWS built into the design.

F-100 doesn't carry 1x CIWS.

Forget about your snide remarks and insults and concentrate on remembering the topic for a second.

You won't be warned again. Stay on topic or face a ban.

Your choice.
 

Markus40

New Member
Tasman, the F100 is fitted with The Close-In Weapon System (CIWS) its the 20mm Meroka 2B also from FABA. The Meroka CIWS includes infra-red camera, video autotracker and is cued by the Aegis radar. Meroka has a range of 2,000m. Cheers.


Agreed and I just can't understand the move away from CIWS. Even the USN has dropped CIWS from the Flight IIA Arleigh Burkes although the earlier ABs had two!

The F100 does include provision for one CIWS but it is not fitted in the Armada units. At the very least the Hobart class should be fitted with the 21 cell RAM or a 35mm Millenium gun (mounted at the rear of the hangar) for close range anti missile defence, backed by 2x 25mm Typhoon and 4x 12.7mm MG (preferably including 2 Mini Typhoon) for close in surface defence. Regarding the manual MGs I also think the RAN should follow the USN and mount its manual 12.7mm MGs in twin mountings (deployed USN ships in the Gulf, etc, now carry at least 4 twin MGs). I guess that the RAN has a large number of single 12.7mm MGs in its inventory. Changing to twins, however, would be a cheap investment when we consider the cost of the assets to be protected.

Cheers
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Tasman, the F100 is fitted with The Close-In Weapon System (CIWS) its the 20mm Meroka 2B also from FABA. The Meroka CIWS includes infra-red camera, video autotracker and is cued by the Aegis radar. Meroka has a range of 2,000m. Cheers.
Thanks Markus.

Perhaps some of our Armada friends could clarify the current situation. My understanding is that whilst provision has been made in the design for the Meroka it has not actually been fitted in the Spanish vessels. Hopefully that has now changed.

Regardless of the Armada situation there is space and weight for a CIWS and there should be no question about it being fitted in the Hobart class, just a question of what (e.g. 35mm Millenium gun, RAM, etc).

Cheers
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
The F100 doesnt carry one CIWS?

Answer:

The Close-In Weapon System (CIWS) is the 20mm Meroka 2B also from FABA. The Meroka CIWS includes infra-red camera, video autotracker and is cued by the Aegis radar. Meroka has a range of 2,000m.
Wow. I can read Naval-Technology.com too. Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately that website isn't always up to date.

Now have a look at the Alvaro De Bazan as she was when visiting Australia on her "photo op" tour in March.

http://www.defence.gov.au/media/download/2007/mar/20070314/20070313ran8098978_045_drn.jpg

Can you see the Meroka 12 barrel 20mm CIWS system anywhere on her? Cause I'm damned if I can.

I've looked at photo's of the other vessels in the class and they don't seem to carry them anymore either.

Whilst the design no doubt includes the carriage of such, they seem to not carry them operationally...
 

Markus40

New Member
The Alvaro De Bazan Frigate is the first ship of its design in this class. Its interesting to note that the Spanish class it as a Frigate and not a Destroyer. However, back to the riddle of the CIWS having had a look at a F100 website i found the following:

"Provision for one CIWS FABA 20mm/120 Meroka system.Actually it isn't carried".

You will find this on the Wikipedia Website at:

http://www.answers.com/topic/lvaro-de-baz-n-class-frigate

This will explain the absence of the CIWS on the Alvaro De Bazan when it made its visit to Sydney.




Wow. I can read Naval-Technology.com too. Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately that website isn't always up to date.

Now have a look at the Alvaro De Bazan as she was when visiting Australia on her "photo op" tour in March.

http://www.defence.gov.au/media/download/2007/mar/20070314/20070313ran8098978_045_drn.jpg

Can you see the Meroka 12 barrel 20mm CIWS system anywhere on her? Cause I'm damned if I can.

I've looked at photo's of the other vessels in the class and they don't seem to carry them anymore either.

Whilst the design no doubt includes the carriage of such, they seem to not carry them operationally...
 

Markus40

New Member
Hi Tasman, i found a missing piece to the puzzle over the absence of the CIWS on the Alvaro De Bazan Frigate. As it is the first ship of its design in this class, this may explain why it is missing to begin with. Its interesting to note that the Spanish class it as a Frigate and not a Destroyer. However, back to the riddle of the CIWS having had a look at a F100 website i found the following:

"Provision for one CIWS FABA 20mm/120 Meroka system.Actually it isn't carried".

You will find this on the Wikipedia Website at:

http://www.answers.com/topic/lvaro-d...-class-frigate

This will explain the absence of the CIWS on the Alvaro De Bazan when it made its visit to Sydney.




Thanks Markus.

Perhaps some of our Armada friends could clarify the current situation. My understanding is that whilst provision has been made in the design for the Meroka it has not actually been fitted in the Spanish vessels. Hopefully that has now changed.

Regardless of the Armada situation there is space and weight for a CIWS and there should be no question about it being fitted in the Hobart class, just a question of what (e.g. 35mm Millenium gun, RAM, etc).

Cheers
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Hi Tasman, i found a missing piece to the puzzle over the absence of the CIWS on the Alvaro De Bazan Frigate. As it is the first ship of its design in this class, this may explain why it is missing to begin with. Its interesting to note that the Spanish class it as a Frigate and not a Destroyer. However, back to the riddle of the CIWS having had a look at a F100 website i found the following:

"Provision for one CIWS FABA 20mm/120 Meroka system.Actually it isn't carried".

You will find this on the Wikipedia Website at:

http://www.answers.com/topic/lvaro-d...-class-frigate

This will explain the absence of the CIWS on the Alvaro De Bazan when it made its visit to Sydney.
The F100 along with the German F124 and the Dutch De Zeven Provincia class were all variants developed following a 'Trilateral Frigate Agreement' between the three countries. I've been suggesting for some time that if the F100 was chosen by Australia it should be classified as an air warfare frigate rather than a destroyer.

I expect the Meroka CIWS will eventually be fitted to the Spanish ships as designed. On the trip to Australia Alvaro De Bazan also carried only four Harpoon cannisters rather than the full outfit of eight. This also seems to be a common practice in the RAN. For example at different times I have seen Warramunga with 8, 6, 2 and 0 Harpoon cannisters fitted to the mountings but she carried the full outfit when deploying to the Gulf (as is Anzac at present).

You may like to have a look at the excellent website on AEGIS and AEGIS like ships set up by Jeff Head, one of our members:

http://www.jeffhead.com/aegisvesselsoftheworld/index.htm

This provides an excellent overview of the various air warfare destroyers and frigates that are in production, including the F100 class.

Cheers
 

Gladius

New Member
Aussie Digger & Tasman are both right. None of the spanish F-100 carry any CIWS system at this moment. But the ship was designed with space and weight reserve for 1 Meroka/Phalanx/RAM system over the helicopter hangar.

However the Spanish Navy rejected the FABA Meroka 2B years ago. Some speculations went around the possible recycle of the Baleares class Merokas (all five ships were decommissioned recently) but nothing is being done about those AFAIK. In fact the F-73 Cataluña was sunk by the Spanish Navy on a SinkEx exercise this week, with her two Merokas.

The interest of the Navy for the RAM & SEA RAM systems is known but the money question caused the Spanish Navy decision to go without CIWS of any type on the F-100 class, trusting in the ESSM to close range AAW defence. The same question is pending on the BPE, Navantia designed the ship "to be fitted" with ESSM and/or RAM systems but the Navy remains undecided if a CIWS sistem (RAM or SEA RAM) would be finally added.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Aussie Digger & Tasman are both right. None of the spanish F-100 carry any CIWS system at this moment. But the ship was designed with space and weight reserve for 1 Meroka/Phalanx/RAM system over the helicopter hangar.

However the Spanish Navy rejected the FABA Meroka 2B years ago. Some speculations went around the possible recycle of the Baleares class Merokas (all five ships were decommissioned recently) but nothing is being done about those AFAIK. In fact the F-73 Cataluña was sunk by the Spanish Navy on a SinkEx exercise this week, with her two Merokas.

The interest of the Navy for the RAM & SEA RAM systems is known but the money question caused the Spanish Navy decision to go without CIWS of any type on the F-100 class, trusting in the ESSM to close range AAW defence. The same question is pending on the BPE, Navantia designed the ship "to be fitted" with ESSM and/or RAM systems but the Navy remains undecided if a CIWS sistem (RAM or SEA RAM) would be finally added.

Thanks Gladius. So Meroka is out for the Spanish ships! It will be interesting to see if they eventually install RAM or SEA RAM or whether they continue to rely on ESSM. Personally I like the idea of the 21 cell RAM for the CIWS role but the 35mm Millenium gun offers an anti surface capability as well so it is also worth considering. A problem reported with the 20mm Phalanx is that it may not always destroy a missile until it is close enough to shower dangerous debris on the vessel being defended so a heavier calibre like the 35mm or a missile like RAM does appear to offer some advantages.

Cheers
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
There were two paths.

One - Build three huge destroyers AB style. These are your kingpins in your fleet. One would be avalible at anyone time, you basically need a partner to project power outside of friendly waters, as one destroyer is not enough. The partner is the US. Korea has definately gone down this route, it is facing swams of missiles, shells that could overwhelm a AB II. It packs 128 missiles, two goal keeper systems, it proberly has some redundant systems as well. Anything less than this and it would be sunk very quickly. This isn't straying far from already strong coastal defences and aircover.

Japans Kongo is simular, not quiet as heavy as the Koreans, but they have more of them. Why? Because they are fleet ships, they can form a task force themselves. More ships = more power.

F100 is of the latter. Australia can afford 4, and will move heaven and earth to get four. With four we can surge atleast two. We can start any taskforce, five and we could sustain it indefinately. Two ships, one ship takes a hit the other still offers cover. There is no one in our region that could take one AWD so two makes it extremely powerful.

What would make up an Australian taskforce?

* The LHD. Mighty powerful ship, plenty of helicopters (16+), maybe even a few F-35B's but needs protection as its a mighty big target for a missile to find if fired. CIWS/RAM would be a good idea I think. Don't underestimate this one for a second, check out what sort of loads are possible in a mixed configuration.
* The AWD's. These provide the major form of naval protection, Two to cover a LHD. 96 cells between them. No one single point of failure. Mighty tough.
* A frigate. either FFG or ANZAC. Provides additional helicopter support, additional missiles, can perform contabulatory duties etc.
* A Collins sub (or two). Silent death. Anti surface and subsurface. Land attack weapons. With a firefight above collins would focus on the water threats. Ace in the hole, if the AWD's are disabled, you can bet this sucker will lay waste to any surface or subsurface target. Seamines etc.

Then any additional units from friendlys. An older destroyer from the UK or say the US would be great helping provide redundancy and cover yet not a key part of the task group. Does not need to always be there, or in the front line, just tagging along.

We are talking about a some sort of modern fleet to challenge this. A fleet including russian cruisers could do it. F-35's and JORN would make this an easily avoidable threat. Australia's destroyers don't have to be dreadnoughts of the sea, a deathstar of power, we aren't fighting off the coast of Korea against possibly 10's of artillery, subs, missiles as a flagship etc. They have to be capable, far more capable than any reasonably possible threat. That they are.

What they don't really provide is land attack. Thats okay, we will have to get some nice $50 mill, F-35B's then. No problem, that comes out of the other budget. Then we have land attack overkill and better sea control and air defence. Focus the missile load for a very few incomming munitions that are fired before launch platforms are destroyed..

F-100 price seems awefully steep (as does LHD). Me thinks Australia may end up with an extremely capable F-100, and four of them too. There is the money in that budget to do it. I think this budget has been designed to carry 4
 

The_Jet

New Member
There were two paths.

One - Build three huge destroyers AB style. These are your kingpins in your fleet. One would be avalible at anyone time, you basically need a partner to project power outside of friendly waters, as one destroyer is not enough. The partner is the US. Korea has definately gone down this route, it is facing swams of missiles, shells that could overwhelm a AB II. It packs 128 missiles, two goal keeper systems, it proberly has some redundant systems as well. Anything less than this and it would be sunk very quickly. This isn't straying far from already strong coastal defences and aircover.

Japans Kongo is simular, not quiet as heavy as the Koreans, but they have more of them. Why? Because they are fleet ships, they can form a task force themselves. More ships = more power.

F100 is of the latter. Australia can afford 4, and will move heaven and earth to get four. With four we can surge atleast two. We can start any taskforce, five and we could sustain it indefinately. Two ships, one ship takes a hit the other still offers cover. There is no one in our region that could take one AWD so two makes it extremely powerful.

What would make up an Australian taskforce?

* The LHD. Mighty powerful ship, plenty of helicopters (16+), maybe even a few F-35B's but needs protection as its a mighty big target for a missile to find if fired. CIWS/RAM would be a good idea I think. Don't underestimate this one for a second, check out what sort of loads are possible in a mixed configuration.
* The AWD's. These provide the major form of naval protection, Two to cover a LHD. 96 cells between them. No one single point of failure. Mighty tough.
* A frigate. either FFG or ANZAC. Provides additional helicopter support, additional missiles, can perform contabulatory duties etc.
* A Collins sub (or two). Silent death. Anti surface and subsurface. Land attack weapons. With a firefight above collins would focus on the water threats. Ace in the hole, if the AWD's are disabled, you can bet this sucker will lay waste to any surface or subsurface target. Seamines etc.

Then any additional units from friendlys. An older destroyer from the UK or say the US would be great helping provide redundancy and cover yet not a key part of the task group. Does not need to always be there, or in the front line, just tagging along.

We are talking about a some sort of modern fleet to challenge this. A fleet including russian cruisers could do it. F-35's and JORN would make this an easily avoidable threat. Australia's destroyers don't have to be dreadnoughts of the sea, a deathstar of power, we aren't fighting off the coast of Korea against possibly 10's of artillery, subs, missiles as a flagship etc. They have to be capable, far more capable than any reasonably possible threat. That they are.

What they don't really provide is land attack. Thats okay, we will have to get some nice $50 mill, F-35B's then. No problem, that comes out of the other budget. Then we have land attack overkill and better sea control and air defence. Focus the missile load for a very few incomming munitions that are fired before launch platforms are destroyed..

F-100 price seems awefully steep (as does LHD). Me thinks Australia may end up with an extremely capable F-100, and four of them too. There is the money in that budget to do it. I think this budget has been designed to carry 4
Land attack could be boosted if you read reports about Defence looking at Tomahawks!

Re the 4th F-100 I think the government would be wanting to get the 3 into service without and problems before the Government in charge when they are in service think about a 4th F-100, by the way does anyone know yet if the Government did put down a option a 4th F-100?
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
The 4th is definately an option, government has been talking it up. I've heard an ABC report mention "4th and 5th". I think a fourth is under serious concideration *IF* the project runs well and to budget (and its a big budget to work in). Another ship would secure jobs, ensure facilities are kept used, and massively enhance Australia's capabilities.

Key conditions:
* Project runs within budget
* Manning issues can be sorted
* Can be announced next election for maxium mileage

A 4th is a 33% improvement in Australia's total capabilities, and up to 100% improvement (doubling) of capabilities most of the time. Which is a lot more than the mini burkes as 3 ships were to offer Australia.

You know it will happen when another AEGIS system is ordered. The government might wait till after the election to sign for that item. It hasn't at this time. I would imagine, after the first ship is launched would be perfect (3 or 4 years).

Tomahawks would be a great asset. I think they are unlikely, at this stage, but everything should work with them (AWD and all new subs).
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
The 4th is definately an option, government has been talking it up. I've heard an ABC report mention "4th and 5th". I think a fourth is under serious concideration *IF* the project runs well and to budget (and its a big budget to work in). Another ship would secure jobs, ensure facilities are kept used, and massively enhance Australia's capabilities.

Key conditions:
* Project runs within budget
* Manning issues can be sorted
* Can be announced next election for maxium mileage

A 4th is a 33% improvement in Australia's total capabilities, and up to 100% improvement (doubling) of capabilities most of the time. Which is a lot more than the mini burkes as 3 ships were to offer Australia.

You know it will happen when another AEGIS system is ordered. The government might wait till after the election to sign for that item. It hasn't at this time. I would imagine, after the first ship is launched would be perfect (3 or 4 years).

Tomahawks would be a great asset. I think they are unlikely, at this stage, but everything should work with them (AWD and all new subs).
If we do get a 4th platform then the F100 was the right choice. A 5th would be very pleasing, as it would be replacing the Adelaides on a ship for ship basis. But i'd be happy with 4.

I thought there was an option for a 4th baby burke too???? wether we could afford it is annother story.

And your assuming that the libs win the nex ellection, which isnt all that likely considering how much everyones in love with good old ruddy and his union mates.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
a 4th burke was possible, but unlikely. No one really talked up the possibility, even to counter the four F-100 argument.

Five F-100 is unlikely, however, never say never. If the project is going well, spanish able to keep a lid on costs, its not off the cards. The ADF is looking at getting bigger and one for one would be good place to start but manning would need to be well addressed before signing up a 5th. Could be a gateway to replacing the ANZAC's by then. Replacing the Anzacs with AEGIS frigates would be a good idea. Perhaps build a real destroyer or cruiser then to meet the needs of the future with a larger version of the same design (again shared with Spain but more of a joint venture).

I think if the libs win it is slightly more secure. I don't count Labour as a killer, yet. I think even with them, a 4th is possible, but less likely. Rudd is part of this whole new funky labour thing, its hard to predict how its going to play out with factions etc. More construction work and being more independant of the US would be strong labour arguments. Labour can claim it was under their watchful eye the project ran so well and they cleaned the mess up and turned turd into gold. Bracks has already claimed credit for the AWD and the money vic is going to make help building them (how much is going to be done in Vic? I thought nearly zero)..

We got the LHD we needed. If we can get 4 x F-100's we will have the escorts we need. If we get the F-35B's to seal the deal the end result is an awesome force. Any other major aquisitions would be pure sugar (5th F-100 or a dedicated carrier), because the basic force structure would be the strongest Australia has ever seen at any stage of its history. We would have two strong arms, that could form independant strike groups and lay punches anywhere in the region or outside it. With out any US or UK assistance.
 

Markus40

New Member
Regardless of the F100 being a mixture of two designs, it still remains that the Alvaro De Bazan is the first frigate of its class coming from a hybrid of other european designs. What is of significant interest and AD did suggest in the first place that he couldnt find the CIWS on the visiting Spanish Frigate which is correct, that the Alvaro De Bazan is fitted for but not with a CIWS. However there is ample room i would suggest in this design to fit one on regardless on the make.

My bet is that like all the predeccessors in the RAN that its highly likely that at least one will be fitted during the building phase. Cheers.

The F100 along with the German F124 and the Dutch De Zeven Provincia class were all variants developed following a 'Trilateral Frigate Agreement' between the three countries. I've been suggesting for some time that if the F100 was chosen by Australia it should be classified as an air warfare frigate rather than a destroyer.

I expect the Meroka CIWS will eventually be fitted to the Spanish ships as designed. On the trip to Australia Alvaro De Bazan also carried only four Harpoon cannisters rather than the full outfit of eight. This also seems to be a common practice in the RAN. For example at different times I have seen Warramunga with 8, 6, 2 and 0 Harpoon cannisters fitted to the mountings but she carried the full outfit when deploying to the Gulf (as is Anzac at present).

You may like to have a look at the excellent website on AEGIS and AEGIS like ships set up by Jeff Head, one of our members:

http://www.jeffhead.com/aegisvesselsoftheworld/index.htm

This provides an excellent overview of the various air warfare destroyers and frigates that are in production, including the F100 class.

Cheers
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
The 4th is definately an option, government has been talking it up. I've heard an ABC report mention "4th and 5th". I think a fourth is under serious concideration *IF* the project runs well and to budget (and its a big budget to work in). Another ship would secure jobs, ensure facilities are kept used, and massively enhance Australia's capabilities.

Key conditions:
* Project runs within budget
* Manning issues can be sorted
* Can be announced next election for maxium mileage

A 4th is a 33% improvement in Australia's total capabilities, and up to 100% improvement (doubling) of capabilities most of the time. Which is a lot more than the mini burkes as 3 ships were to offer Australia.

You know it will happen when another AEGIS system is ordered. The government might wait till after the election to sign for that item. It hasn't at this time. I would imagine, after the first ship is launched would be perfect (3 or 4 years).

Tomahawks would be a great asset. I think they are unlikely, at this stage, but everything should work with them (AWD and all new subs).
I think it FAR more likely that a 4th AWD will be ordered IF RAN's recruiting situation improves dramatically and the outlook for that unfortunately is still not good.

I don't know if RAN is particularly inclined towards retiring existing platforms to obtain new platforms. I'm not talking retirement of the FFG's here, but rather retiring ANZAC class frigates to make way for AWD's.

I think the budget surplus would extend to acquisition of a 4th AWD, but if it can't be manned, then I doubt it will be acquired...
 

phreeky

Active Member
I think it FAR more likely that a 4th AWD will be ordered IF RAN's recruiting situation improves dramatically and the outlook for that unfortunately is still not good.

I don't know if RAN is particularly inclined towards retiring existing platforms to obtain new platforms. I'm not talking retirement of the FFG's here, but rather retiring ANZAC class frigates to make way for AWD's.

I think the budget surplus would extend to acquisition of a 4th AWD, but if it can't be manned, then I doubt it will be acquired...
It's a bit of a catch-22 though I think, get the tech and the manpower will come (to some extent at least).

Potential recruits aren't stupid, they'll research what the RAN does and doesn't have and technical stuff will likely interest them. These latest purchases are surely going to boost the interest of potential recruits, at a minimum possibly "steal" some from the other services, at best spark the interest of those that were not considering an ADF career initially.
 

submerged

New Member
Regardless of the F100 being a mixture of two designs, it still remains that the Alvaro De Bazan is the first frigate of its class coming from a hybrid of other european designs. What is of significant interest and AD did suggest in the first place that he couldnt find the CIWS on the visiting Spanish Frigate which is correct, that the Alvaro De Bazan is fitted for but not with a CIWS. However there is ample room i would suggest in this design to fit one on regardless on the make.
the trilateral construction agreement only got as far as hull design and superstructure, even then there are huge variations between the 3 ship classes derived from it. For the weaponsystem the spanish went US-style whilst the others went to local systems.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
It's a bit of a catch-22 though I think, get the tech and the manpower will come (to some extent at least).

Potential recruits aren't stupid, they'll research what the RAN does and doesn't have and technical stuff will likely interest them. These latest purchases are surely going to boost the interest of potential recruits, at a minimum possibly "steal" some from the other services, at best spark the interest of those that were not considering an ADF career initially.
I certainly hope so, but the bigger problem for RAN is retention. Keeping the "old and bold" in ADF and RAN in particular. Ones who have "been there and done that" but of course have gained the vital experience to guide the new recruits along the way. That is the true issue for ADF. One that the management still haven't got on top of.

The problem that they try and solve time after time by throwing more money at the people, irregardless of how many surveys they conduct which shows that money isn't the overriding factor for most people serving... :rolleyes:
 
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