What's everyone's opinion on the current conflict in Syria?

STURM

Well-Known Member
I'm anticipating that Assad will try to link his cooperation on the WMD issue to a demand that such US aid be ceased.
But the Sunni Arab states might not play along as they want Assad gone; to weaken Iran and put a check on Hezbollah. Problem is, despite sharing a common stance in wanting Assad gone, the West and its 'allies' in the Gulf have slightly different reasons for wanting Assad gone and have different ideas as to what they want to achieve in a post-Assad Syria.

The West might restrict its aid to 'none lethal' stuff but the same can't be said for the Sunni Gulf states.
 

SolarWind

Active Member
There's some contradicting evidence claiming that the rebels used the chemical weapons. Apparently the rebels fired an Iranian shell called Bashair-3 with home-made payload, among others.

Is it possible that both sides are guilty?
If this evidence is true, it is highly unlikely Assad could have used chemical weapons at the exactly same place and time. And it does make little sense for him to use the chemical weapons, given that he is winning the war now.
 

colay

New Member
But the Sunni Arab states might not play along as they want Assad gone; to weaken Iran and put a check on Hezbollah. Problem is, despite sharing a common stance in wanting Assad gone, the West and its 'allies' in the Gulf have slightly different reasons for wanting Assad gone and have different ideas as to what they want to achieve in a post-Assad Syria.

The West might restrict its aid to 'none lethal' stuff but the same can't be said for the Sunni Gulf states.
True. In any case, IMO any such demand by Assad will be rejected outright by Washington. IF the CIA can provide reasonable assurance that weapons are reaching the intended recipients, then the pace of shipments may even be increased.
 

colay

New Member
There's some contradicting evidence claiming that the rebels used the chemical weapons. Apparently the rebels fired an Iranian shell called Bashair-3 with home-made payload, among others.

*
Evidence: Syria gas attack work of U.S. allies

Is it possible that both sides are guilty?
Maybe. For myself, the UN official report will hopefully shed some light, being based on actual physical evidence and presumably signals intercepts and other intelligence from the US and other sources.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
True. In any case, IMO any such demand by Assad will be rejected outright by Washington. IF the CIA can provide reasonable assurance that weapons are reaching the intended recipients, then the pace of shipments may even be increased.
If past history is anything to go by, that's a very big 'if' ......

The 'rebels' that the Gulf Arabs wants to arm are different from the 'rebels' that the West wants armed, so how can the CIA provide any reassurance? At the end of the day, the so called 'Allies' or 'partners' [the West, the Gulf state Arabs and Turkey] have different objectives, they also have different ideas to to kind of post-Assad Syria they want. Assad might demand that the U.S. pressure the Arabs to stop supporting the 'bad chaps' [the ones people call 'terrorists' and 'Muslim fundamentalists']; problem here the U.S. has little or no say as to who the Arabs decide they want to support.

The biggest irony is that none of the Gulf state Arab countries, who are supposedly so concerned about the loss of innocent lives and lack of freedom in Syria, are democracies themselves. The only thing we can say for certain is that the war will go and civillians will continue to die whilst 'outsiders' manipulate things for their own advantage.

As the US wants to arm 'nice Syrian rebels' we must remind ourselves that weapons are not just guns. They are about money - Comment - Voices - The Independent

http://ericmargolis.com/2013/08/antoher-jolly-little-war/

The chaps in this video are the kind of chaps the West is uncomfortable with -

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukoP7hossqI"]Presence of al-Qaeda raises tension in northern Syria - YouTube[/nomedia]
 
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SolarWind

Active Member
The UN report is out, stating that surface to surface missiles were used as the delivery method for chemical weapons. Unless the rebels operate surface-to-surface missiles, it should not be hard for the US and allies to convince most of the world that Assad is to blame.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The UN report is out, stating that surface to surface missiles were used as the delivery method for chemical weapons. Unless the rebels operate surface-to-surface missiles, it should not be hard for the US and allies to convince most of the world that Assad is to blame.
Large quantities of Syrian military hardware fell into rebel hands. There's pictures of rebels operating SAMs (namely the OSA) and tanks (a T-55 in at least one case). Also many Syrian military officers defected to the rebels. It's certainly not impossible for the rebels to use captured Syrian ballistic missiles. And remember "ballistic missiles" simply means a rocket flying a ballistic trajectory. Some of the surface to surface missiles were from an ancient Soviet MLRS (predating the BM-21 Grad) namely this one: BM-14 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Systems of this kind are very simple to operate, and have in the past been used by insurgents, never mind an actual rebel army. There's several possibilities including the munitions being manufactured by the rebels, or them capturing Syrian military chemical munitions.
 

My2Cents

Active Member
The UN report is out, stating that surface to surface missiles were used as the delivery method for chemical weapons. Unless the rebels operate surface-to-surface missiles, it should not be hard for the US and allies to convince most of the world that Assad is to blame.
The rebels have plenty of captured Syrian surface-to-surface missiles, plus homemade missiles, plus imports provided to or purchased by them.

But the missiles used apparently did not have binary warheads and were charged just before launch. Not something untrained personnel are likely to be able to perform without a lot of casualties, starting with the arming crew.
 

colay

New Member
The prevailing wisdom seems to be that a US strike would not really alter the balance of forces so why did Assad blink and seize the Russian initiative? Why not just take the blow and continue his war of attrition? Is he buying time?.. if so, to what end? Is he looking down the road to a time when he will negotiate for his survival to avoid Gaddafi's fate? His WMD could have been a big bargaining chip but he's now given that up.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The prevailing wisdom seems to be that a US strike would not really alter the balance of forces so why did Assad blink and seize the Russian initiative? Why not just take the blow and continue his war of attrition? Is he buying time?.. if so, to what end? Is he looking down the road to a time when he will negotiate for his survival to avoid Gaddafi's fate? His WMD could have been a big bargaining chip but he's now given that up.
The prevailing wisdom is one thing, but when your own life is on the line it's a whole other. There was a lot of commentary questioning the effectiveness of airstrikes against Gaddafi too, but he ended up murdered on camera.

Also, it's a question of time and resources. The US certainly can alter the balance of forces, if it so chooses.

Finally I strongly suspect he takes cues from Moscow. And whether Assad thinks he can avoid Gaddafi's fate or not, Russia sees the US making and breaking regimes left and right. And acts accordingly on the international stage, disregarding talk of democracy and human rights as so much smoke and mirror, and instead seeing the US as a super power that can and will do what it perceives in its best interests.
 

colay

New Member
Obably
The prevailing wisdom is one thing, but when your own life is on the line it's a whole other. There was a lot of commentary questioning the effectiveness of airstrikes against Gaddafi too, but he ended up murdered on camera.

Also, it's a question of time and resources. The US certainly can alter the balance of forces, if it so chooses.

Finally I strongly suspect he takes cues from Moscow. And whether Assad thinks he can avoid Gaddafi's fate or not, Russia sees the US making and breaking regimes left and right. And acts accordingly on the international stage, disregarding talk of democracy and human rights as so much smoke and mirror, and instead seeing the US as a super power that can and will do what it perceives in its best interests.
Yes, Assad was certainly motivated by the Russians. What's interesting with the UN report and it's ambiguity is it likely makes a deal for exile more realistic. No doubt Assad could still be prosecuted for other crimes against humanity.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Why not just take the blow and continue his war of attrition? Is he buying time?.. if so, to what end? Is he looking down the road to a time when he will negotiate for his survival to avoid Gaddafi's fate? His WMD could have been a big bargaining chip but he's now given that up.
In parallel with his efforts to turn the tide on the battlefied, he desperately needs Russian diplomatic support. The Russians might have made it clear to him, that they need Assad to make a major comprise to avert a strike; and that if he didn't make a comprise with the 'West' that Russia might downgrade its support for him. No doubt the Russian will also have told him that apart from continuing to support him and using its veto, there's isn't much more Russia can do to help him. Officially, it has been stated that strikes are intended to ''degrade'' the ability of the Syrians government to deliver chemicals, but ''un-officially'', strikes can also be easily used by Uncle Sam and France to degrade the ability of the Syrian government to conduct operations against its enemies - there's a very, very thin line separating the two.

A lot is happening behind the scenes that we're not privy to but one thing for sure is that Assad hopes that the rebels/terrorists/freedom fighters/insurgents will start fighting amongst themselves; he may also be involved in talks with the Arabs to seek a deal that would be mutually beneficial. Also, it is important to keep in mind that if the 'West' and its 'allies' and 'partners' are deadset on doing away with Assad [for their own interests and geopolitical reasons], they will find another reason or an excuse to continue doing what the're doing and to launch strikes, irrespective of the Russian brokered deal over the chemicals, which is a political face saver for Obama. A few months down the road, there will be no surprises if there is an announcement that Assad is not fullly cooperating in handing over his chemicals [sound familiar doesn't it?].

The question we should really be asking is how the countries that would like to see Assad go, would ultimately benefit from it? As for Israel, continued strife in Syria means that talks/negotiations need not be held over the longstanding Golan occupation. If Assad was in a stronger position, he could anounce that Syria only got its chemicals to protect itself against Israel and that Syria would only give up its chemicals if Israel did the same with its nukes, but given the position he's in, he can't say that.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Human Rights Watch says that the missiles were launched from a Syrian Army base, but there may be some issue of range.

 

Well this is getting messier and messier. I wonder if we'll ever get the real answer.
 

My2Cents

Active Member
The prevailing wisdom seems to be that a US strike would not really alter the balance of forces so why did Assad blink and seize the Russian initiative? Why not just take the blow and continue his war of attrition? Is he buying time?.. if so, to what end? Is he looking down the road to a time when he will negotiate for his survival to avoid Gaddafi's fate? His WMD could have been a big bargaining chip but he's now given that up.
The problem is that Congress also heard the prevailing wisdom and was demanding that The Administration show them why they should approve an ineffective gesture to save Obama’s international reputation. Because The Administration couldn’t, the Pentagon was asked for much stronger strike alternatives to convince Congress to give approval for an action against Syria. If Congress did approve a strike against Syria it would be almost impossible for Obama not to carry through in the current political environment.

The Russian proposal is more along the lines of “We have to head this off before it is too late.”, and Assad apparently agreed that it was the best way to slow things down. Assad hasn’t blinked, the negotiations at the UN could take a year or more, unless the USA, France, and UK are willing to accept a toothless agreement that Russia and/or China won’t veto. That will just reset the clock, because Assad can game it for years with Russian and Chinese help.
 

Stezza

New Member
Hi everyone,

I have just been browsing the UN report, mostly Appendix 5, which deals with the munitions recovered from Moadamiyah and Zamalka/Ein Tarma.

www scribd.com/doc/168606795/U-N-Report-on-Chemical-Attack-in-Syria

Even though it was not in the inspectors' mandate to investigate this, I think the report contains some useful information that could shed light on who may be to blame for the CW attack. I am not very knowledgable on the situation, but I hope the experts on the forum can discuss.

I'm not sure if the type of munitions is important, as I'm sure both the government and rebel forces have access to similar missiles etc. however these details are described in the report if you are interested. What was interesting to me was the capacity of the warhead, which was estimated to be apx. 56 litres. This appears to be a quantity much larger than the footage I have seen of (allegedly) rebel use CW, where they appear to have warheads modified from 9kg propane bottles (or similar). This is just my interpretation.

The predicted trajectory of the missiles at Moadamiyah was estimated to be from a bearing of 214 and 215 degrees and the report states that this is consistent with a "dispersion pattern commonly associated with rockets launched from a single, multi-barrel, launcher". I'm not in a position to understand if this is accurate or not.

The missile measured at Zamalka/Ein Tarma was estimated to have a trajectory of 105 degrees.

the New York Times has an article today stating

"Depending on the degree of accuracy in the measurements, the flight path for at least one of the rockets could also be read to lead back to the government’s sprawling air base at Mezzeh, near the foot of Mount Qasioun."

and "A senior American intelligence official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said the United States, via satellite, had confirmed rocket launches that corroborated the United Nations data and the Human Rights Watch analysis for one of the strikes."

I would be interested in everyones views on this report and information within. international intervention.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Well this is getting messier and messier. I wonder if we'll ever get the real answer.
Would it be correct to asuume that apart from having chemical tip Scuds and Frogs, artillery shells and the ability to use aircraft, that Assad may also be able to deliver chemicals using his Grads?

Is there any other way of delivering chemicals?

Assad agreed [or was persuaded] that this was the only way to slow things down but may have also been told that this was the price of continued Russian support; which he so desperately needs. Like I mentioned in my previous post, if the 'West' really wants Assad gone, they can easily find a reason/excuse in the near future for launching strikes or providing his enemies with ''lethal'' aid. I won't be surprised if in a few months down the road, the U.S announces that Assad is not cooperating fully in handing over his chemicals ...

The Russians apparently have some evidence - BBC News - Russia will give UN 'proof' of Syria rebel chemical use
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Interesting commentary from the Russian military and experts. They cast doubts on the ability of HRW, based on evidence from the UN report, to determine accurately the launch positions. They also state that it's very unlikely that the systems were fired from inside the base, commenting that it's standard to operate the systems from separate firing positions.

They also demystify the writing on the M-14 rocket. The number 179 is the 179th Ordnance Plant SibSelMash, in Novosibirsk. 4-67-179 written on the side means 4th lot, year 1967, factory 179. These are old Soviet artillery rockets, that were likely converted to carry chemical weapons indigenously. They also say that the BM-14 is out of service with the Syrian military, and it's highly unlikely they would be used for such a conversion. They would probably use the standard BM-21 Grad munitions for which they undoubtedly have chemical warheads. They speculate that the rebels found the shells in "some old military warehouse" and converted it themselves.

*

My personal opinion is that the type of the shells does seem to speak against their use by the government forces, and the HRW calculations are sketchy at best. But this certainly doesn't exonerate Assad. Merely throws more muck in the water.
 

Twain

Active Member
The "UN" force could be a US carrier battle group off the coast. On the ground you could maintain a fairly small force for security reasons. At the end of the day I don't see either group making an overt move against the refugees. With a US naval presence as a guarantee of imminent response, even less so.
That's an interesting idea, but what country would want to put even a small force into the middle of a very ugly civil war? Lebanon doesn't seem that far from being sucked into this conflict too and if that happens things will get much worse.

Secondly, considering the current circumstances in the US, I don't see washington being willing to park an aircraft carrier off the coast of Lebanon long term.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
That's an interesting idea, but what country would want to put even a small force into the middle of a very ugly civil war? Lebanon doesn't seem that far from being sucked into this conflict too and if that happens things will get much worse.

Secondly, considering the current circumstances in the US, I don't see washington being willing to park an aircraft carrier off the coast of Lebanon long term.
Honestly I don't know who would be willing to. But there's quite a few countries that can. If the desire was there, I don't think it would that hard to do. Assad would have little reason to attack such a force, in fact given his fear of intervention, he'd be likely to make sure nothing happens even by accident. On the other hand the rebels are far too weak and too disorganized to try attacking a professional military, even if the force in question isn't that large, and would similarly lack motivation.

On the second point, in your opinion, why not?
 
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