War Against ISIS

gazzzwp

Member
Interesting to hear the russian claims of mass desertions in the rebel lines, true or not. Until now I hadn't considered the morale smasher that this russian meddling must be to the opposition.

After years they were finally seeing an end at the tunnel with simultaneous victories and Assad having to admit retreats, demonstrations against him etc. And now ... I don't see the Assad regime collapsing any time soon.

Maybe partition is the humane solution, how can this country be whole again?
Difficult in the face of the inevitable influx of Iranian troops to the region as well as continued airstrikes to see how the opposition can maintain their efforts.

There is a swell of opinion among media commentators that the US is disengaging from the middle east.

Could it be that potentially there are too many high priority commitments elsewhere? Ukraine, N Korea, S China sea, all potentially could flare up any day.

The US cannot be everywhere at once.

I wonder if that is part of the plan with the China, Russia, Iran (and N Korea) alliance to overstretch US resources?

It's a possibility.
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
It's more complex then that. I think that ISIS is not a proxy, it's an organization and a power in its own right. I suspect if the Saudis attempted to pull the plug on ISIS, they would suddenly discover that they can't. There's also a distinct possibility of internal problems in the Kingdom of Saud.


Agree. ISIS as an organization has been almost, dare I say, impressive in its staying power and ability to not just survive but flourish. Almost makes one wonder how, and what external support they have

IMO There are certainly internal issues in the kingdom.

A lot of this , again IMO, boils down to VVP supporting an old friend and ally to protect A strategic port and airbase and economic buyer.

Also gives him a chance to test his military tech while once again making the US President look out of touch and disengaged.
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
Turkish Jets intercept Russian incursion

bbc is reporting an Russian airforce incursion Into Turkish airspace. Turkey sent F16s to push them away. The Russian MOD said is was a "mistake". Turkey claims there have been several "harassing" flights.

I've seen multiple pictures showing SU-30s with an AIr to air load out but it's difficult to confirm they're at Latkia. Interesting if so, who is the CAP protecting the SU24s from? Or are they spoiling for a brush with Allied or IAF flights?


Syria conflict: Turkish jets 'intercept Russian plane' - BBC News
 
Last edited:

Capt. Ironpants

Active Member
It's more complex then that. I think that ISIS is not a proxy, it's an organization and a power in its own right. I suspect if the Saudis attempted to pull the plug on ISIS, they would suddenly discover that they can't. There's also a distinct possibility of internal problems in the Kingdom of Saud.
Agree whole-heartedly.

It's difficult to gauge just how serious the internal problems are (at least for me), and difficult to easily find information on this. The best I could find was this: How Saudi Arabia?s aggressive foreign policy is playing against itself | Asia Times
 

the concerned

Active Member
I thought that Syrian airspace was being monitored by western awac's aircraft and j/stars ,sentinel. We seriously need to get over ourselves and share targeting information with the Russian s noy try to hamper them. A bit like the anti pirating mission couldn't all the forces in the area set up corridors /sectors for each to work in rather than everyone go everywhere. So like if just the Russians and the US operated within Syria and the other western allies work on clearing Irag this must be possible. The priority must be saturating the Syrian/Iragi border to stop the ISIS forces running between them
 

gazzzwp

Member
Russia’s ministry of defence announced on Friday the deployment of its navy cruiser the Moskva to Latakia. The Moskva is armed with a complement of 64 S-300 ship-to-air missiles, Russia’s most powerful anti-aircraft weapon.

Read more:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/cee6fcba-69bf-11e5-8171-ba1968cf791a.html#axzz3niIg4wE1

Who wants to bet that this is what Russia is aiming to do? With installment of large SAM batteries they would have the means to impose a no fly zone in Syria to test the resolve of the alliance.

Meanwhile from BBC:

A statement by Nato's 28 members, that include Turkey, warned of "the extreme danger of such irresponsible behaviour" and urged Russia "to cease and desist".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34448942

The stakes are being raised.
 
Last edited:

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
So the question is what is a 'mistake', or are the Russians looking to widen the battle? As you say why the air to air munitions?
I still don't see VVP spoiling for a kinetic conflict with the West here. Simple geopolitics to shore up an Ally, economic partner, retain air and naval bases, and improve his standing in the ME. Not a bad test bed for their military tech as well
 
Last edited:

gazzzwp

Member
bbc is reporting an Russian airforce incursion Into Turkish airspace. Turkey sent F16s to push them away. The Russian MOD said is was a "mistake". Turkey claims there have been several "harassing" flights.

I've seen multiple pictures showing SU-30s with an AIr to air load out but it's difficult to confirm they're at Latkia. Interesting if so, who is the CAP protecting the SU24s from? Or are they spoiling for a brush with Allied or IAF flights?


Syria conflict: Turkish jets 'intercept Russian plane' - BBC News
What evidence do we have that it was a mistake or otherwise? Theorists might suggest that despite apparent Russian remorse on the matter, the easiest way to engage NATO would be to prod Turkey into making a unilateral response to the incursions. The government there being extremely angry about Russian intervention, and now vowing to intensify support to the opposition groups.

This is a complex situation. I wonder if NATO has Turkey on a tight leash right now?
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Turkey could well be the key as to whether or not this conflict escalates.

Turkey vows to protect borders after Russian warplane violated its airspace | Fox News

The game of chicken may be about to begin.
I can't see Russia probing Turkish airspace after this incident. The risk versus gain isn't there IMO. The greater risk is something happening between Russians and NATO inside Syrian airspace. This might be where Turkey could cause some serious stuff to happen.
 

gazzzwp

Member
I can't see Russia probing Turkish airspace after this incident. The risk versus gain isn't there IMO. The greater risk is something happening between Russians and NATO inside Syrian airspace. This might be where Turkey could cause some serious stuff to happen.
It all depends upon what the wider Russian goals are. I agree on the surface it may seem a senseless thing to do. Are we to believe that he Russian navigation is really that poor? I don't honestly know. Maybe Feanor could offer some specialist insight into why this may have occurred.

Here is what my instinct is saying:

Russia is in deep financial trouble. It is propping up a disintegrating Eastern Ukraine, with hardly any access to cheap European loans due to sanctions, and a zombie oil price. The absolutely last thing it should be doing is engaging in a costly middle east campaign right now.

Russia as I see it is not being threatened. It seems to be over extending itself in the Arctic, East Ukraine and now Syria and it seems all about image and credibility. Is this what a nation in deep recession should be doing? Where is the actual payback going to come from?

Russia does not have the economic power that the US has to sustain a campaign of this magnitude. It must be costing and hurting Russia.

Russia must have it's sights on impeding Saudi oil production; it can only do this if the combat arena is widened to draw in all affected players. It would want to draw in Turkey naturally as a NATO member and while a Russian NATO skirmish occurs to in the north then Iran could be let loose on the Gulf states to the south. Russia would then have reason to support Iran and the gulf states would suffer collateral damage affecting oil supplies.

The Russian intervention is about gaining control of oil supplies; an industry that not only ultimately determines whether it is a super power or not but whether it goes into terminal decline or not having over committed itself militarily.

Watch out for the gulf oil states being dragged directly into the conflict.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Russia must have it's sights on impeding Saudi oil production; it can only do this if the combat arena is widened to draw in all affected players. It would want to draw in Turkey naturally as a NATO member and while a Russian NATO skirmish occurs to in the north then Iran could be let loose on the Gulf states to the south. Russia would then have reason to support Iran and the gulf states would suffer collateral damage affecting oil supplies.

The Russian intervention is about gaining control of oil supplies; an industry that not only ultimately determines whether it is a super power or not but whether it goes into terminal decline or not having over committed itself militarily.

Watch out for the gulf oil states being dragged directly into the conflict.
I am sure Russia would benefit from higher oil prices due to supply reductions from the Gulf but how would this benefit two of its key allies, China and Iran? Iran has had sanctions imposed on it for years. Increasing the market for their oil even at low prices still gets them some hard currency. For them to intervene against the Gulf states and Saudi Arabia will not end well for them no matter how much Russian military support is promised. Higher oil prices and interference with ME supply is not in China's interest (unless Russia is going to compensate China with cheap oil).
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
It all depends upon what the wider Russian goals are. I agree on the surface it may seem a senseless thing to do. Are we to believe that he Russian navigation is really that poor? I don't honestly know. Maybe Feanor could offer some specialist insight into why this may have occurred.
They claim the weather forced them off course. The MoD says they spent several second in Turkish airspace.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ìèíîáîðîíû: ðîññèéñêèé ñàìîëåò íàðóøèë âîçäóøíîå ïðîñòðàíñòâî Òóðöèè èç-çà ïëîõîé ïîãîäû

Russia is in deep financial trouble. It is propping up a disintegrating Eastern Ukraine, with hardly any access to cheap European loans due to sanctions, and a zombie oil price. The absolutely last thing it should be doing is engaging in a costly middle east campaign right now.
Maybe. On the other hand they could hit ISIS oil infrastructure hard, and possibly see the Saudis drawn into the conflict more actively.

Russia as I see it is not being threatened. It seems to be over extending itself in the Arctic, East Ukraine and now Syria and it seems all about image and credibility. Is this what a nation in deep recession should be doing? Where is the actual payback going to come from?
Well the Arctic is a long term investment. Following the delightful rule "possession is 90% of the law", they want to have a large portion of the Arctic for when it does become highly profitable.

Russia does not have the economic power that the US has to sustain a campaign of this magnitude. It must be costing and hurting Russia.
Yeah the campaign doesn't have much magnitude to it. It's a 2+ squadron airforce deployment, 1+ helo squadron, and 2 battalion tactical groups of security. I suspect the biggest limiting factor isn't cost, it's probably their ability to deploy and sustain.

Russia must have it's sights on impeding Saudi oil production; it can only do this if the combat arena is widened to draw in all affected players. It would want to draw in Turkey naturally as a NATO member and while a Russian NATO skirmish occurs to in the north then Iran could be let loose on the Gulf states to the south. Russia would then have reason to support Iran and the gulf states would suffer collateral damage affecting oil supplies.
That reads like a Tom Clancy novel. Why is it natural that Russia wants a skirmish with NATO? Other than the traditional evil empire theory. I think it's far more likely that they're there to get a solid foothold in the Mediterranean, and prop up one of their last client states in the region.

The Russian intervention is about gaining control of oil supplies; an industry that not only ultimately determines whether it is a super power or not but whether it goes into terminal decline or not having over committed itself militarily.

Watch out for the gulf oil states being dragged directly into the conflict.
I don't think they need actual control of the oil. Russia already has huge oil reserves. They need prices to go back up. That's different. Nor do low oil prices mean terminal decline for Russia. They hurt Russian export and Russia's budget, but they're not the only thing Russia stands on.
 

A.V. Berg

New Member
Russia is in deep financial trouble. It is propping up a disintegrating Eastern Ukraine, with hardly any access to cheap European loans due to sanctions, and a zombie oil price. The absolutely last thing it should be doing is engaging in a costly middle east campaign right now.

Russia as I see it is not being threatened. It seems to be over extending itself in the Arctic, East Ukraine and now Syria and it seems all about image and credibility. Is this what a nation in deep recession should be doing?

Russian economy is in decline but it is far from crashing. Crucial sectors such as IT and agriculture are actually showing considerable growth this year. The key problem is not oil price but corruption, mis-management and an absolutely horrible banking system.

I've heard Siluanov, the Russian minister of finance say that the Syrian campaign is funded from the already existing defence budget and that no extra money was allocated. For now, the amount of manpower and assets deployed is remeniscent of a small to medium exercise. I am more worried with the possibility of elderly aircraft beginning to malfunction and with pilot fatigue.

Russia was quite threated by events in the Ukraine. Even Spiegel realised that the West crossed a red line in the Ukraine forcing Putin's hand. Syria is not irrelevant to Russian security either given that there are thousands of Russian citizens fighting for ISIS.

And lastly, whilst Russia had a head-start in the Arctic, its stance must be seen in the context of a general scramble for that region by Canada, Denmark, US and even China. In fact, apart from some barracks for the Arctic brigades, overwhelming majority of Russian effort in that region is aimed at rebuilding Soviet-era infrustructure.
 

A.V. Berg

New Member
Russia is in deep financial trouble. It is propping up a disintegrating Eastern Ukraine, with hardly any access to cheap European loans due to sanctions, and a zombie oil price. The absolutely last thing it should be doing is engaging in a costly middle east campaign right now.

Russia as I see it is not being threatened. It seems to be over extending itself in the Arctic, East Ukraine and now Syria and it seems all about image and credibility. Is this what a nation in deep recession should be doing?

Russian economy is in decline but it is far from crashing. Crucial sectors such as IT and agriculture are actually showing considerable growth this year. The key problem is not oil price but corruption, mis-management and an absolutely horrible banking system.

I've heard Siluanov, the Russian minister of finance say that the Syrian campaign is funded from the already existing defence budget and that no extra money was allocated. For now, the amount of manpower and assets deployed is remeniscent of a small to medium exercise. I am more worried with the possibility of elderly aircraft beginning to malfunction and with pilot fatigue.

Russia was quite threated by events in the Ukraine. Even Spiegel realised that the West crossed a red line in the Ukraine forcing Putin's hand. Syria is not irrelevant to Russian security either given that there are thousands of Russian citizens fighting for ISIS.

And lastly, whilst Russia had a head-start in the Arctic, its stance must be seen in the context of a general scramble for that region by Canada, Denmark, US and even China. In fact, apart from some barracks for the Arctic brigades, overwhelming majority of Russian effort in that region is aimed at rebuilding Soviet-era infrustructure.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I've heard Siluanov, the Russian minister of finance say that the Syrian campaign is funded from the already existing defence budget and that no extra money was allocated.
That's interesting. I'd assumed the opposite, because the existing budget is already allocated to specific spending categories. Where did they pull money out of to re-allocate it to the Syrian venture? I'd have expected them to use money from some special fund or other to run the Syrian venture, separately from the MoD budget.
 
Top