USAF Strikes AQ Somalia

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Ozzy Blizzard

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Does anyone know wht the etheopians actually went in? I heard that Somalia was actually doing well for a change, with a somewhat stable goverment, islamic courts that at least applied the rule of law. What was the provocation?
 

Rish

New Member
basically the ethiopians are going in to get rid of the islamic terrorists that are in somalia.



MOGADISHU: The Somali president returned to the beleaguered capital Monday in his first visit since taking office, while his forces and Ethiopian troops laid siege to an Islamic movement's last military foothold.

President Abdullahi Yusuf had not set foot in Mogadishu for 40 years.

His return there came 10 days after his forces — backed by Ethiopian troops, tanks and warplanes — drove the Islamic movement out of the city. But remnants of the Islamic force are believed to be hiding in the capital.

On the southern tip of Somalia, meanwhile, Ethiopian jets and soldiers attacked the remnants of the Somali Islamic Courts Council as part of a campaign to finish off the Islamists who have vowed to fight on.

"With regard to holding talks with the Courts, this will not happen," Yusuf told Al Jazeera television in an interview before flying to Mogadishu. "We will crack down on the terrorists in any place around the nation."

The Somali defense minister, Colonel Barre Aden Shire, said government troops were poised to enter the Islamic stronghold at Ras Kamboni, on the southernmost tip of Somalia between the sea and the Kenyan border, after a fierce two-day battle.

American warships were patrolling the coastline and the Kenyan military was securing the border, Shire said.

Skirmishes had taken place outside Ras Kamboni and both sides had suffered heavy casualties.

U.S. officials have said that extremists with ties to Al Qaeda were operating a training camp at Ras Kamboni and that Qaeda members were believed to have visited it.

The alleged mastermind of the 1998 U.S. Embassy bombings in East Africa, Fazul Abdullah Muhammad, escaped to Ras Kamboni, according to testimony from one of the bombers.

The Ethiopians are expected to pull out of Somalia within weeks, while an African peacekeeping force is being cobbled together to fill any vacuum in security, which the government admits it cannot handle on its own.

In Addis Ababa, officials at a meeting of the African Union's Peace and Security Council on Monday discussed plans for a proposed 8,000-strong deployment, including how it would be funded and which countries would contribute troops.

The Somali ambassador to the African Union, Abdikarim Farah, said it was agreed the deployment would go ahead immediately, and that it would require $150 million for the first six months.

"Seven African countries have showed an interest in providing troops and are awaiting the" union's official request, he said.

Leaders of the Islamic movement have vowed from their hideouts to start an Iraq-style guerrilla war, and the deputy of Osama bin Laden has called on militants to carry out suicide attacks on the Ethiopian troops fighting in their country, according to a taped message posted on the Internet on Friday.

Ethiopia intervened in Somalia on Dec. 24 to help defeat the Islamic movement that threatened to overthrow the internationally recognized government, which at the time controlled only the western town of Baidoa.

Many in predominantly Muslim Somalia resent having troops from neighboring Ethiopia, which has a large Christian population. The countries fought two brutal wars, the last in 1977.

Somalia has not had an effective central government since clan-based warlords ousted the dictator Mohamed Siad Barre in 1991.

Then they turned on each other, sinking the Horn of Africa nation of seven million into anarchy.

Yusuf, 72, last visited Mogadishu 40 years ago, said a government spokesman, Abdirahman Dinari.

A former colonel in the Somalia Army during the 1960s, Yusuf was jailed by Barre when he refused to cooperate in a coup d'état in 1969.

With Ethiopian support, he began a rebellion against Barre during the 1980s.

When he took office in 2004, members of the government quickly split over its priorities and where it should be located. His closeness to Ethiopia also had caused tension within the government.

Yusuf was expected to meet with traditional Somali elders and stay at the former presidential palace, occupied for the last 15 years by warlords, Dinari said.

Security across the capital was tight, though Dinari claimed, "There are no security concerns at all."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/01/08/news/somalia.php
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
basically the ethiopians are going in to get rid of the islamic terrorists that are in somalia.



MOGADISHU: The Somali president returned to the beleaguered capital Monday in his first visit since taking office, while his forces and Ethiopian troops laid siege to an Islamic movement's last military foothold.

President Abdullahi Yusuf had not set foot in Mogadishu for 40 years.

His return there came 10 days after his forces — backed by Ethiopian troops, tanks and warplanes — drove the Islamic movement out of the city. But remnants of the Islamic force are believed to be hiding in the capital.

On the southern tip of Somalia, meanwhile, Ethiopian jets and soldiers attacked the remnants of the Somali Islamic Courts Council as part of a campaign to finish off the Islamists who have vowed to fight on.

"With regard to holding talks with the Courts, this will not happen," Yusuf told Al Jazeera television in an interview before flying to Mogadishu. "We will crack down on the terrorists in any place around the nation."

The Somali defense minister, Colonel Barre Aden Shire, said government troops were poised to enter the Islamic stronghold at Ras Kamboni, on the southernmost tip of Somalia between the sea and the Kenyan border, after a fierce two-day battle.

American warships were patrolling the coastline and the Kenyan military was securing the border, Shire said.

Skirmishes had taken place outside Ras Kamboni and both sides had suffered heavy casualties.

U.S. officials have said that extremists with ties to Al Qaeda were operating a training camp at Ras Kamboni and that Qaeda members were believed to have visited it.

The alleged mastermind of the 1998 U.S. Embassy bombings in East Africa, Fazul Abdullah Muhammad, escaped to Ras Kamboni, according to testimony from one of the bombers.

The Ethiopians are expected to pull out of Somalia within weeks, while an African peacekeeping force is being cobbled together to fill any vacuum in security, which the government admits it cannot handle on its own.

In Addis Ababa, officials at a meeting of the African Union's Peace and Security Council on Monday discussed plans for a proposed 8,000-strong deployment, including how it would be funded and which countries would contribute troops.

The Somali ambassador to the African Union, Abdikarim Farah, said it was agreed the deployment would go ahead immediately, and that it would require $150 million for the first six months.

"Seven African countries have showed an interest in providing troops and are awaiting the" union's official request, he said.

Leaders of the Islamic movement have vowed from their hideouts to start an Iraq-style guerrilla war, and the deputy of Osama bin Laden has called on militants to carry out suicide attacks on the Ethiopian troops fighting in their country, according to a taped message posted on the Internet on Friday.

Ethiopia intervened in Somalia on Dec. 24 to help defeat the Islamic movement that threatened to overthrow the internationally recognized government, which at the time controlled only the western town of Baidoa.

Many in predominantly Muslim Somalia resent having troops from neighboring Ethiopia, which has a large Christian population. The countries fought two brutal wars, the last in 1977.

Somalia has not had an effective central government since clan-based warlords ousted the dictator Mohamed Siad Barre in 1991.

Then they turned on each other, sinking the Horn of Africa nation of seven million into anarchy.

Yusuf, 72, last visited Mogadishu 40 years ago, said a government spokesman, Abdirahman Dinari.

A former colonel in the Somalia Army during the 1960s, Yusuf was jailed by Barre when he refused to cooperate in a coup d'état in 1969.

With Ethiopian support, he began a rebellion against Barre during the 1980s.

When he took office in 2004, members of the government quickly split over its priorities and where it should be located. His closeness to Ethiopia also had caused tension within the government.

Yusuf was expected to meet with traditional Somali elders and stay at the former presidential palace, occupied for the last 15 years by warlords, Dinari said.

Security across the capital was tight, though Dinari claimed, "There are no security concerns at all."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/01/08/news/somalia.php
It would be a composition fallacy to regard the entire ICU as terrorists. While extremist elements certainly exists within their ranks, there are also moderates. According to news sources, they brought a degree of stability and provided some basic government functions while in power. The way I see it, the Transitional Government are composed of mostly clan warlords. Not all that better than the ICU in my mind.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
It would be a composition fallacy to regard the entire ICU as terrorists. While extremist elements certainly exists within their ranks, there are also moderates. According to news sources, they brought a degree of stability and provided some basic government functions while in power. The way I see it, the Transitional Government are composed of mostly clan warlords. Not all that better than the ICU in my mind.
I Agree. Islamist doesn't mean terrorist.
 

Manfred

New Member
It don't mean good guy either, and the fascists were well known for order.

Since these people were sheltering, and taking money, from known AQ leaders, they WERE the bad guys. Maybe now, pirates will stop operating from Somali ports, and the half-dozen relief ships held for ransom will be released soon. That is the proof I am waiting for to see what the new gang is all about.
 

rickshaw

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
It don't mean good guy either, and the fascists were well known for order.
Thats rather a blanket statement, you realise? Fascists might have been "well known for order" but are notoriously unstable once they come under attack. Islamism has, like Islam, many facets to it and not all Islamists are devoted to the overthrow of the West nor to Terrorism. Until Americans start to learn to differentiate between different brands of Islamism and to play upon those differences, they'll be fighting shadows IMO and whats worse, losing.
 

Rich

Member
Islamism has, like Islam, many facets to it and not all Islamists are devoted to the overthrow of the West nor to Terrorism. Until Americans start to learn to differentiate between different brands of Islamism and to play upon those differences, they'll be fighting shadows IMO and whats worse, losing.
What does that mean exactly? And who said we were attacking Islam in the first place? If we were there would be a lot less Muslims today. If any. You think because they use the words "Islam" and "courts" in their name that gives them some legitimacy and righteousness?

Somalia IS a haven for terrorists. Al Qaeda has been there for decades, it was they who taught the Somalis how to shoot down American helicopters with RPGs. Remember? The Last time the bleeding hearts wanted to risk the lives of "other peoples kids" while trying to save the Somalis from themselves? And while were at it lets list the names of moderate Leaders from non-secular Islamic nations. Or should I say "List the life spans"? And while several here have made reference to "moderates" in the ICU I have also notice nobody has names for any of them, nor have they expressed why these fictional Somalis are "moderate".

Different brands of Islam? Well I got news for anybody shopping around for their particular "brand". If its a "brand" that wants to attack and kill our citizens then we are going to hunt them and wipe them out. We dont owe the world an apology for that.

Many of my countrymen seem to think this war against terrorists has only been going on since 9/11 and seem genuinely surprised when I tell them how we were ducking bullets from them back in the 70s. Most current Americans dont like reading history, and most never served in uniform, but they should look up all the terrorist attacks attributed to Islamic fundamentalism. They list in the thousands!

Somalia is like Yemen, Chad, West Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Sudan were "and still are to some extent". Lawless tribal lands that make perfect havens for Al Qaeda to train and plot their attacks.
I Agree. Islamist doesn't mean terrorist.
Who said it did?

t would be a composition fallacy to regard the entire ICU as terrorists.
What if the entire ICU allowed Al Qaeda Haven? Or, just the ones with the power? What then? More Political correctness?

I heard that Somalia was actually doing well for a change, with a somewhat stable goverment, islamic courts that at least applied the rule of law.
A stable government? Or was it just another armed gang that happens to pray 5 times a day? A gang that wants to export their religion by force converting or killing citizens of other nations? This "All Muslims aren't terrorists" crap is classic politically correct misdirection that threatens to paralyze our actions and might cause us to lose this war. Its the kinda sentiment that got us into this mess in the first place.

We have 5 million Muslims living in America in peace and prosperity protected by our Constitution and our Police, of which I'm one, so spare me this "America is out to get Islam" crap.
 
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Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Somalia has been one war torn lawless mess for the last 15 years and islamist or not, the last government applied the rule of law, stopped the shooting in the streets, and allowed people to actually go about their lives in piece for once. They actually had something close to popular support. Thats a pretty massive thing for a coutry thats been at civil war for over a decade, and all thats out the window for the heads of maybe 5 al quida terrorists. Dont get me wrong they deserve to die, but is it worth destabilising a nation that was just getting on its feet.

If afraid its not political correctness thats going to loose us this war but a tactical focus and strategic blindess. What do you think is more important to the cause, Hunting the individual terrorists at any costs, destabilising governments and killing/dissrupting the lives of poor somali's? How do you think that's going to be taken in the moderate muslim world, were the battle really needs to be won?! Actions like these drive more and more muslims to extreemism. It seems the US military is just focusing on tactical victories missing the point strategically, just like in vietnam. The "center of gravity" in this war is not extreemist muslims, terrorists hiding in the desert, but moderate muslims. I'm not saying you sit back and do nothing, but taking unilateral action with large costs to civilians is allways going to hurt the greater cause, no matter what the particular prize is. Vengance is not going to win us this war.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Somalia has been one war torn lawless mess for the last 15 years and islamist or not, the last government applied the rule of law, stopped the shooting in the streets, and allowed people to actually go about their lives in piece for once. They actually had something close to popular support. Thats a pretty massive thing for a coutry thats been at civil war for over a decade, and all thats out the window for the heads of maybe 5 al quida terrorists. Dont get me wrong they deserve to die, but is it worth destabilising a nation that was just getting on its feet.

If afraid its not political correctness thats going to loose us this war but a tactical focus and strategic blindess. What do you think is more important to the cause, Hunting the individual terrorists at any costs, destabilising governments and killing/dissrupting the lives of poor somali's? How do you think that's going to be taken in the moderate muslim world, were the battle really needs to be won?! Actions like these drive more and more muslims to extreemism. It seems the US military is just focusing on tactical victories missing the point strategically, just like in vietnam. The "center of gravity" in this war is not extreemist muslims, terrorists hiding in the desert, but moderate muslims. I'm not saying you sit back and do nothing, but taking unilateral action with large costs to civilians is allways going to hurt the greater cause, no matter what the particular prize is. Vengance is not going to win us this war.
But what can we do, we have to keep the terrorists on edge so that we do not have the potential for additional 911 like attacks in the U.S, I do agree that it would be nice if we could do this in a peaceful way, but lets face it, the only way that this is going to happen is if peaceful Muslims start taking the lead and squashing radical groups with in their countries, cities and neighborhoods. Just think, all this hate that is directed towards the U.S because of our support for one small country that just wants the world to leave them alone and let them live in peace.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
On moral terms i agree compleatly, although the US has a fair amount of extremism itself. I'm not saying you only fight this war peacfully (theres a contradiction in terms for you) but we need to be more thoughtfull in the way we apply force. It seems the US will pay any price in the terms of muslim opinion in order to get terrorist heads. Just like the Isreali's and look were they are, an endless cycle of violence. Did it really require destabilising the somali government and probably sending the nation back into civil war to eliminate half a dozen targets. I know their trying to send a message to regimes that if you harbour terrorism you wont last long. But that sort of action is creating terrorist recruts. I'm not arguing the rights and wrongs of it, just how much sence it makes long term.
 

rickshaw

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
What does that mean exactly? And who said we were attacking Islam in the first place?
Your attitude and the attitude displayed by many on the internet today is one of outright attack on Islam, with little attempt to differentiate between moderate and extremists, lumping all Muslims into the one great big grab bag.

If we were there would be a lot less Muslims today.
No doubt. However thankfully that attitude has yet to gain ground amongst the top rungs of your government.

If any. You think because they use the words "Islam" and "courts" in their name that gives them some legitimacy and righteousness?
Nope. Do you assume it seems that because their title contains those words, they appear to be the devil incarnate.

Somalia IS a haven for terrorists.
Is it? According to whom? Moreover, perhaps you should ask, why did it become that way, if it has?

Al Qaeda has been there for decades, it was they who taught the Somalis how to shoot down American helicopters with RPGs. Remember?
Did they? It appears to me that al Qaeda is the bogeymen that everything gets pinned on, even in retrospect.

The Last time the bleeding hearts wanted to risk the lives of "other peoples kids" while trying to save the Somalis from themselves? And while were at it lets list the names of moderate Leaders from non-secular Islamic nations. Or should I say "List the life spans"? And while several here have made reference to "moderates" in the ICU I have also notice nobody has names for any of them, nor have they expressed why these fictional Somalis are "moderate".
So, acccording to you, there is no such thing as a modern Muslim? Mmm, I am sure that the Prime Minister and President of Malaysia and Indonesia and the majority of their populations might be very surprised to learn that, as would that of Bangladesh, the Gulf States, a good slice of Central Asia and of course, most of the Muslims living in the west. Remember what I said about your inability to differentiate? You've made it very clear that you can't, won't or are unable to do so.

Different brands of Islam? Well I got news for anybody shopping around for their particular "brand". If its a "brand" that wants to attack and kill our citizens then we are going to hunt them and wipe them out. We dont owe the world an apology for that.
Fair enough however what happens when your scattergun approach kills those Muslims who come from a "different brand"?

Many of my countrymen seem to think this war against terrorists has only been going on since 9/11 and seem genuinely surprised when I tell them how we were ducking bullets from them back in the 70s. Most current Americans dont like reading history, and most never served in uniform, but they should look up all the terrorist attacks attributed to Islamic fundamentalism. They list in the thousands!
Really? Yet the main motivation for most of that period (1970s-1990s) was not religious fundamentalism. Indeed, Islamist inspired Terrorism is very much a new phenomena. You appear once more to be using a very broad brush in your description of the problem. I'd suggest that in fact you are as ignorant of history as you claim that your fellow Americans are.

Somalia is like Yemen, Chad, West Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Sudan were "and still are to some extent". Lawless tribal lands that make perfect havens for Al Qaeda to train and plot their attacks.
Sure are and you can either attack the symptoms or you can attack the causes of such a situation developing. Which do you prefer?

Who said it did?
You implied it.

We have 5 million Muslims living in America in peace and prosperity protected by our Constitution and our Police, of which I'm one, so spare me this "America is out to get Islam" crap.
Then stop posting the crap that you do, which makes more moderate people believe that is your intention.
 
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