Welcome to DefenceTalk.com Forum!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

USAF News and Discussion

Discussion in 'Air Force & Aviation' started by RobWilliams, Aug 29, 2013.

Share This Page

  1. colay1

    colay1 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014
    Messages:
    457
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    terra
    I was thinking of the Teen jets starting with the Eagle and Tomcat onwards. Anyway, my crystal ball doesn't see that far into the future.
     
  2. gf0012-aust

    gf0012-aust Grumpy Old Man Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2003
    Messages:
    18,005
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Australia

    Rule No 1: You can guarantee that there are no guarantees :)
     
  3. phreeky

    phreeky Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Messages:
    205
    Likes Received:
    0
    Costing a restart isn't dumb, but doing it after you've already ceased production is.

    I do wonder what a new F-22 would look like. I can only assume it would be F-22 in airframe and engines, F-35 in most electronics packages, and new build whatever it takes to make it all work together. There'll be some big improvements from lessons learnt from F-35 on whatever is built next, but it wouldn't be cheap!
     
  4. colay1

    colay1 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014
    Messages:
    457
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    terra
    I don't see the benefit of a F-22 with F-35 derived mission systems justifying the cost. In their current configuration, networked F-22s and F-35s complement each other synergistically.
     
  5. John Fedup

    John Fedup Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    4,496
    Likes Received:
    404
    Location:
    Vancouver and Toronto
    There are some in government and likely the USAF as well that feel there are not enough F-22s to synergistically network to F-35s. If stealth is compromised by new emerging detection technologies, is there a need for jets with better kinematic performance or is the networking and sensor fusion along with new jamming technology make this unnecessary. The more knowledgeable posters here will have to weigh in on this. Regardless of what the answers are, the costs involved with a restart are likely a show-stopper.
     
  6. colay1

    colay1 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014
    Messages:
    457
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    terra
    If that day ever comes, kinematic performance would likely have graduated to the hypersonic arena to make a difference. The smart money is going into enhancing LO sensors, avionics, etc. for good reason. The limited numbers of the F-22 fleet explains why the AF is adamant about standing firm on it's projected F-35 buy.
     
  7. phreeky

    phreeky Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Messages:
    205
    Likes Received:
    0
    The argument against the F-22, then, would be that an unmanned vehicles has far more potential - there's only so much the human body can take.
     
  8. gf0012-aust

    gf0012-aust Grumpy Old Man Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2003
    Messages:
    18,005
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Australia
    its pretty dumb when the systems are no longer in development and on limited support.

    they basically would have to re-engineer all of the electronics.

    its not just an upgrade - its fundamentally a new development - and you'd have to do the CBA and TBA against JSF and UCAS

    its not as dumb as trying to do a lazarus on battleships - but it runs a pretty close 2nd
     
  9. gf0012-aust

    gf0012-aust Grumpy Old Man Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2003
    Messages:
    18,005
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Australia
    no, its about the overall CONOPs - future tactical constructs and whether the cost to bring that specific capability supports that future combat and warfighting vision

    10 years ago, yes.

    now? a gradually increase crescendo of "no" ...
     
  10. gf0012-aust

    gf0012-aust Grumpy Old Man Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2003
    Messages:
    18,005
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Australia
    yep, agility has been redefined some time ago, its not about kinematics and physical manouvreability

    things are much more complex now - it really has accelerated into the issue of a warfighting bubble and how everthing in that dome interacts, supports, shares and asists in temporal and geo specific objects, points and targets of interest.

    you don't need to outmanouvre the enemy to render them ineffectual
     
  11. Jezza

    Jezza Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2005
    Messages:
    223
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Perth
    Probably better off ordering some F-15 2040C. Allowing it to supplement the F-22 in the Air-Superiority role. At least there is a production line running.
    Only If this F-22 start-up gets some legs and of course the money to do it.

    F-15 2040C Proposal includes infra-red search and track, doubling the number of weapon stations, with quad racks for a maximum of 16 air-to-air missiles, Passive/Active Warning Survivability System, conformal fuel tanks, upgraded APG-63(v)3 AESA and a "Talon HATE" communications pod allowing data-transfer with the F-22
     
  12. Toblerone

    Toblerone Banned Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2014
    Messages:
    449
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Europe
    The people in charge must shield the F-35 program from the dangers of future budget cuts, partners dropping out etc. Even thinking about dumping money into the F-22 is stupid.

    After the F-35 exports are in full swing and the aircraft is proven. Then an F-22 upgrade program can be started. And I don't see all the panic about the number 187. Just make due with those.

    Mod edit: Text deleted and warnings have been issued to you by three different Moderators in multiple threads. There shall be no further inflammatory or trolling posts, from you or you will be gone for good.

    Last warning to re-think your engagement style.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
  13. Ranger25

    Ranger25 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    739
    Likes Received:
    48
    Location:
    Si Vis Pacem. Para Bellum
  14. swerve

    swerve Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2006
    Messages:
    6,978
    Likes Received:
    90
    Location:
    Reading, Berkshire
    Errr . . not quite the final KC-46. The final KC-46 test aircraft. ;)
     
  15. Ranger25

    Ranger25 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    739
    Likes Received:
    48
    Location:
    Si Vis Pacem. Para Bellum
    Apologies, 4th test aircraft.
     
  16. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Messages:
    7,114
    Likes Received:
    1,598
    Location:
    In the rum store
    A USAF B52H crashed at Guam earlier today (NZST) with the crew ejecting safely. No cause for the crash has been identified yet.
     
  17. John Fedup

    John Fedup Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    4,496
    Likes Received:
    404
    Location:
    Vancouver and Toronto
  18. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Messages:
    7,114
    Likes Received:
    1,598
    Location:
    In the rum store
    But will LockMart be willing to divert resources to build such a beastie? Where does it say about foreign involvement? At present the F22 cannot be exported by law and that law would have to be changed by Congress.
     
  19. John Fedup

    John Fedup Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    4,496
    Likes Received:
    404
    Location:
    Vancouver and Toronto
    It seems that foreign involvement is to be considered but Congress would have to pass a law for this. From the article, "Congress is considering a provision in its fiscal year 2017 defence policy bill that would require the air force to provide a cost breakdown and even consider foreign involvement in the project by 1 January 2017, but Welsh expects an answer about the cost sooner".

    As for LM diverting resources, I doubt they would want to. Boeing and NG would probably be happy to but I really can't see where the money would come from domestically. Perhaps an ultra secret survey is needed on possible foreign buyers, if offered, will you buy and how many? The down stroke is the effect on F-35 orders which is why this restart is unlikely.
     
  20. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Messages:
    7,114
    Likes Received:
    1,598
    Location:
    In the rum store
    My apologies I stand corrected on the foreign involvement. The article that I linked to in Defence News states:
    and the Flightglobal aaticle you linked to states:
    Hence there are many issues to be sorted before even getting your flight suit and helmet on John. The US have to get through an election yet.