US Navy News and updates
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t68
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Should it be capability at any price?
Are you really suggesting that a Nimitz is so out of date any new ships could not compete in the environment. It not like the F35 program where you are not building legacy airframes which can compensate for late development. Late development of GRF might impact an already stressed budget and follow on ship build program.
This is one of those times building and developing new tech should be when all the cremilins have been worked out from small scale testing to what would be the finished product a full scale test bed built on ship just for testing on say a mothballed carrier only her flight decks will be needed a full reactivation and can be towed for testing.
none of the major carriers are the same - even within their class, there are small clusters of functional similarity, but the reality is that even the carriers are basically undergoing or have undergone "flight" or block developments
so using a baseline "mothball" is impractical for a variety of practical and technical reasons
Well a couple things are the price for the carriers keep increasing because of yard time. Its not that they are harder to build so much as its cheaper to take longer to build them and push back the price of getting them done and active.
EMALs is a give take for me. Not sure how they are going to hid that EM sig (same with the rail gun) when they need to and keep launching. BUT emals is supposed to mean less wear and tear on the aircraft which is good. A lot of the other cost is really in automation built into the vessel. While there I'm not sure if maybe more wisdom in usage of personnel in the navy in general isn't a better path.
The LCS' ASuW MM could be in for an upgrade that will allow the ship to counter swarming boat attacks at greater distances. Contenders may include Raytheon's new Sea Griffin and MBDA's Sea Spear.
Raytheon Working on Extending Range of Griffin Missile for LCS | Defense News | defensenews.com
Raytheon Working on Extending Range of Griffin Missile for LCS
PARIS — Recognizing that the Griffin missile won’t have the range needed by the US Navy to be deployed on the Littoral Combat Ship (LCS) when it is fully operational, the missile’s maker Raytheon is spending its own money to develop a new motor, as well as a new guidance system for the 33 lbs ordinance.
Raytheon had received a contract for the Navy to test its existing Griffin on LCS increment 1, but after concerns were voiced about the missile, the company is pushing to develop a new version.
“Right now, this version of the Griffin probably doesn’t ultimately have enough range for this customer so we’re on LCS increment 1 with this Griffin, but what we need to do is, with what we’re calling a Sea Griffin, we need to put a bigger motor on the Griffin and give it some more range,” said Harry Schulte, vice president of air warfare systems for Raytheon’s missile systems business. “We’ve got IRAD (independent research and development) money going into a bigger motor, and a low cost seeker.”
Rear Adm. Jim Murdoch, program executive officer for LCS at Naval Sea Systems Command, told Defense News in May that the Navy was looking for a competition to find a better solution than the existing Griffin.
One likely rival bidder to the Griffin is Europe’s MBDA.
The missile maker briefed reporters in Paris that it had successfully completed it’s first salvo firing of the new Sea Spear version of the Brimstone missile from a fixed platform off the coast of Scotland in May.
Sea Spear is being developed by MBDA as an answer to swarm attack fast patrol craft.
Fitted with a millimetric wave radar (MMW) the weapon destroyed three small boats, one moving at speed and the others static, in an autonomous firing at a range of around 4.5 miles...
Raytheon Working on Extending Range of Griffin Missile for LCS | Defense News | defensenews.com
Raytheon Working on Extending Range of Griffin Missile for LCS
PARIS — Recognizing that the Griffin missile won’t have the range needed by the US Navy to be deployed on the Littoral Combat Ship (LCS) when it is fully operational, the missile’s maker Raytheon is spending its own money to develop a new motor, as well as a new guidance system for the 33 lbs ordinance.
Raytheon had received a contract for the Navy to test its existing Griffin on LCS increment 1, but after concerns were voiced about the missile, the company is pushing to develop a new version.
“Right now, this version of the Griffin probably doesn’t ultimately have enough range for this customer so we’re on LCS increment 1 with this Griffin, but what we need to do is, with what we’re calling a Sea Griffin, we need to put a bigger motor on the Griffin and give it some more range,” said Harry Schulte, vice president of air warfare systems for Raytheon’s missile systems business. “We’ve got IRAD (independent research and development) money going into a bigger motor, and a low cost seeker.”
Rear Adm. Jim Murdoch, program executive officer for LCS at Naval Sea Systems Command, told Defense News in May that the Navy was looking for a competition to find a better solution than the existing Griffin.
One likely rival bidder to the Griffin is Europe’s MBDA.
The missile maker briefed reporters in Paris that it had successfully completed it’s first salvo firing of the new Sea Spear version of the Brimstone missile from a fixed platform off the coast of Scotland in May.
Sea Spear is being developed by MBDA as an answer to swarm attack fast patrol craft.
Fitted with a millimetric wave radar (MMW) the weapon destroyed three small boats, one moving at speed and the others static, in an autonomous firing at a range of around 4.5 miles...
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Good. Smart of us to put out the right signals in evaluations, and smart on Raytheon to fix the major deficiencies of Griffin I for counter swarm.
Though it's a bit ridiculous that it's taken us this long to figure out a solution to the counter swarm problem. Between Griffin IIB and APKWS/LOGIR, we should be well covered.
Though it's a bit ridiculous that it's taken us this long to figure out a solution to the counter swarm problem. Between Griffin IIB and APKWS/LOGIR, we should be well covered.
just buy Brimstone its in service got a successful record exported well and should be straightforward to fit. Im still concerned at the small warhead and the fact its only now being dealt with
The LCS is still in it's very early toddler stage, just barely out of infancy with just 2 unique operational prototypes in service so the timing isn't really an issue IMO. Evolutionary change will be a defining characteristic of the LCS going into the future which will have to be balanced against finite resources.
If they can get the CEP of Griffin down to make it effective against fast boats, the warhead shouldn't be an issue, and I'd take increased capacity over a more powerful missile if the end result is similar. Not quite as much an issue for surface launched, but it's definitely a problem for the air launched solution. For a bigger target like a full size FAC with "real" ASCMs, there are better ways to deal with it.
It wouldn't be all that straightforward either...no operational record of surface launched Hellfire or Brimstone (a few one off exceptions for Hellfire), and integrating that into a shipboard combat system isn't going to be trivial.
Plus the existing Brimstone doesn't have the range required.
You might as well use a common missile for the supposedly cheap LCS for the Helos and ship, if you want land attack and range you have use something bigger and more expensive such as Harpoon(at a push Fireshadow would work) or if you want to plink patrol boats or swarms of small boats and want a missile solution something that's light portable and could be strapped on relatively easily Hellfire has been mounted on various nordic FAC's for decades now so it definitely proven with MMW radar its a very quick acquisition time which is essential when dealing with small fast craft. I am deeply concerned that their is still a problem with CEP of Griffin.
Im not sure you would want the LCS as the primary anti-FAC when helos have been so successful (Iraq 1990 is a perfect example of the effectiveness of Helos on FAC's)
I wasn't aware Griffin had an issue with it's CEP. The current variant's SAL seeker seems to work just fine.
http://defensetech.org/2012/06/15/navy-nails-speedboats-with-griffin-missiles/
The proposed Sea Griffin is reported to have a dual-mode seeker, likely adding an active MMW seeker ala Brimstone.
http://defensetech.org/2012/06/15/navy-nails-speedboats-with-griffin-missiles/
The proposed Sea Griffin is reported to have a dual-mode seeker, likely adding an active MMW seeker ala Brimstone.
Harpoon is too big and focused on the wrong threat. TACAIR and armed helo will already have a field day with FACs.
FIACs are another story, and that's the purpose of whatever fulfills the NLOS requirement. Don't know if the CEP is an issue...we'll have to see how that shapes up in testing. The range and guidance system on Griffin II/Sea Griffin is the right type for the counter swarm mission. We DO know that Hellfire sized missiles are overkill and overpriced for small boats, and is too short legged in existing configuration. Which is another thing to consider...even if you could procure and fight with the quantities needed to fight a swarm, a strategy to hit a $50K boat with a $500K missile makes no sense.
Armed helo is already designated primary counter swarm. LCS weaponeering is about getting a surface platform that can host the armed helo and defend itself adquately against leakers, particularly a larger swarm. And there's always the possibility of an attack when the helo is unavailable...and counter FIAC timelines are extremely tight.
Weeellll . . . . .over here we have LMM (13 kg missile for surface & helicopter launch, in production now for RN helicopters with laser seeker but multi-mode seeker being worked on), Brimstone for bigger boats (same size as Hellfire but longer range, demonstrated in surface launch salvo mode for use against boats), & soon, FASGW(H), which is Sea Skua sized (100-150 kg) but longer ranged, for boats which are bigger again. Or we can probably knock out more Sea Skuas if you're in a hurry.
Yeah...we probably could...but none of that stuff is a full solution except FASGW and that's not a mature solution either. And if we're going to have to wait, 9/10 we're going to do the development in house.
APKWS works in the short term, LOGIR+Griffin II gets us all the way.
Maybe not the most efficient way to do business, but it is what it is. BAE is the big exception to this rule (they have plenty of US contract history), but looks like most of those are MBDA products...and that does not help.
I think this is the thing - all the missile solutions heavily overlap with both the 57mm and the two 30mm cannon that are part of the anti surface module anyway. I *believe* the turret carries 120 ready rounds but I could be talking tosh. Given the way the rounds shred targets, I wouldn't rate most FAC's chances of getting very close.
More updates on the LCS Mission Modules with more progress being reported. Slow and steady wins the race though I bet many on Independence are yearning fora few Singapore Slings.
USN's remote minehunting system earns reliability marks, heads for developmental testing - IHS Jane's 360
USN's remote minehunting system earns reliability marks, heads for developmental testing
Key Points
Lockheed Martin's improved RMMV completed 850 hours of at-sea reliability testing, completing 47 separate 12-hour MCM missions United States to bypass final reliability testing phase in favour of advancing the RMS directly into developmental tests in late 2013
At-sea reliability testing of the Littoral Combat Ship's (LCS's) remote minehunting system (RMS) concluded one month early, allowing the US Navy (USN) to complete sailor proficiency training on the technology before developmental testing begins in the fourth quarter of 2013, industry officials told IHS Jane's on 24 June...
USN's remote minehunting system earns reliability marks, heads for developmental testing - IHS Jane's 360
USN's remote minehunting system earns reliability marks, heads for developmental testing
Key Points
Lockheed Martin's improved RMMV completed 850 hours of at-sea reliability testing, completing 47 separate 12-hour MCM missions United States to bypass final reliability testing phase in favour of advancing the RMS directly into developmental tests in late 2013
At-sea reliability testing of the Littoral Combat Ship's (LCS's) remote minehunting system (RMS) concluded one month early, allowing the US Navy (USN) to complete sailor proficiency training on the technology before developmental testing begins in the fourth quarter of 2013, industry officials told IHS Jane's on 24 June...