US Navy News and updates

fretburner

Banned Member
No idea about the relative costs of operating Burkes and SSGNs. They stuck with the alternating Gold & Blue crew arrangement with the SSGNs so they should spend plenty of time on station.. I believe they actually fly out the crews to meet the sub at some convenient base abroad.
Its probably good to have a diversified weapons load on the Burkes to be responsive to different situations as they arise.
I agree that Burkes are a LOT more flexible than SSGNs. But for Land Attack role, 1 SSGN will probably equal 3 or 4 Burkes when it comes to TLAMs carried, which, considering the crewing, will probably cheaper to operate. I just don't know if the USN wants "dedicated" Land Attack subs in each theater.

Talk about Burkes... GAO Probing U.S. Navy DDG-51 Line Restart

I wonder what conclusions they'll make. My money is on favoring the Zumwalts' case especially since they're going to use the same radar on the Flight 3s.

I'm just an enthusiast, but I have trouble believing that Zumwalts could NOT carry SM-3s or other future ABMs. The upsides heavily favors the Zumwalts, being a totally new design and it being modular. I'm also a fan of the advanced gun :)
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
The Zumwalts are not destroyers.

If you want to use them as operational warships, they should be classified as cruisers. However, IMO the design is more technological testbed than warship.
 

fretburner

Banned Member
^ But aren't the Flight 3s going to be near the size of Cruisers?

Also, do you think that the Zumwalts are purely technology testbeds without the change of becoming effective surface combatants? Did the USN really build them like demonstrators of some sort?
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
They might be effective warships, they may be disasters. Look at the number of new things going on in that class of ships.

- Brand new radar
- Brand new VLS Cells
- Brand new hull form
- Brand new barrel launched missile system (6" AGS)
- New to the USN Propulsion system (similar to T45 IEP isnt it?)
- New to the USN Crew saving automation (based on LCS??)

How many new operational combat ship classes throughout history have this many new innovations on them?

The design is for a technological testbed.

Edit: And just about all current destroyer classes should be classified as cruisers based on size and role.
 

colay

New Member
Imagine the sleepless nights the SSGN fleet must give Chinese defense planners. They've invested billions in resources to implement their A2/AD strategy aimed at neutralizing the US CBGs and US Airpower but then they still face the prospect of hundreds of cruise missiles coming their way.. in any hypothetical conflict, the SSGNs would be priceless in their ability to launch massive decapitating strikes with virtual impunity.

Re Zumwalts vs. Burkes, its beginning to look like the Burke Flt III may not be the bargain originally envisioned. Radical surgery to the legacy DDG-51 hull to accommodate the AMDR seem certain to escalate costs, then the Zumwalts begin to look more attractive.
 

fretburner

Banned Member
How many new operational combat ship classes throughout history have this many new innovations on them?
Maybe the Zumwalt is the first of its kind.

But then again, if the USAF can build the U2, SR-71, B2, and F117... Maybe the USN can built something "entirely" new? Or is the "entirely" new ship will have to be confined to the LCS for now?
 

colay

New Member
Maybe the Zumwalt is the first of its kind.

But then again, if the USAF can build the U2, SR-71, B2, and F117... Maybe the USN can built something "entirely" new? Or is the "entirely" new ship will have to be confined to the LCS for now?
Yeah, they are pushing the envelope.. its the first "electric" ship and doesn't have the design constraints that appear to be plaguing the Burke. The nice thing is the Zumwalt production line is active so it should be easy ramping up production if the Navy changes its mind.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
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  • #268
^ But aren't the Flight 3s going to be near the size of Cruisers?
Flight I Burkes already are. Each warship generation in general gets bigger as the equipment gets larger, the roles change or more roles are added.

Also, do you think that the Zumwalts are purely technology testbeds without the change of becoming effective surface combatants? Did the USN really build them like demonstrators of some sort?
They will be warships, they will deploy and do all that good stuff. They are the same as the Long Beach, tech demonstrators and functional warships.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
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  • #269
How many new operational combat ship classes throughout history have this many new innovations on them?
Off the top of my head...

USS Monitor
HMS Dreadnaught.
HMS Argus and USS Langley
USS Long Beach.
 

Belesari

New Member
How many of the monitors were sunk due to storms? There were alot of problems with them with in some ways got fixed in later designs but some were fundamental.

That said the Zumwalts arent the monitors.

Zumwalt is based on a hull form that is highly unstable and requires alot of machinery to make stable. These systems are themselves very new and must function or the Zumwalts will come very close to sinking. There are no backups for these systems.

The Engines used are the same ones i believe as in the san antonio class which have caused Alot of problems. The VLS and such doesnt really disturb me and i havnt heard much said about them negatively or not. However some other things are a problem.

When your vessel is 700 ft long and is expected to lob shells at targets and be safe because of its stealth-meanwhile operating just offshore without enough close in weapons to protect itself and nothing to stop swarms of cheap fast missile boats( or even speed boats with machinguns sense the vessels armor is so light). Not to mention 155mm rounds show up quit well on radar and if you have a spotter or someone with a eye on the ship should be fun to watch counter battery fire from onshore when it comes to a composite (wood) superstructure.

Its Another vessel built for optimal manning which means it will have horrible problems with maintanence and repair.

Meanwhile its supposed to be backed up by the LCS of which 80% of the vessel's firepower isnt even ready yet and which has a horrible maintanence record to rival any i've heard of. And which even the navy cant say with a straight face is a match for much besides really stupid pirates......

It aint good.

DDG-51 III is a expansion of a proven hull design and ship design. It will incorperate some new tech from the DDG-1000 line and be longer and wider to acomidate a increase in VLS a new radar and more CIWS stations. Yes it is larger and heavier but because its still fullfilling the missions of the DDG its destroyer.

Steady Evolution of a system and ship. Not quantom leaps that half the time are wasted.

Off the top of my head...

USS Monitor
HMS Dreadnaught.
HMS Argus and USS Langley
USS Long Beach.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Off the top of my head...

USS Monitor
The British and French had already built ironclad warships by then. Lets face it, Monitor wasnt exactly a flawless design.

HMS Dreadnaught.
She was a logical development based on the development of the warships of the time. Fairly sure her only *technical* advancement as such was the use of parsons turbines for propulsion?

HMS Argus and USS Langley
Not sure about Langley, but wasnt Argus a development of the already partially converted (separate front/rear flight decks) Furious?

USS Long Beach.
Correct me if I am wrong, but Long Beach had one main technological advancement, the Nuclear reactor, but even that had been used on previous sea going ships previously. As far as I am aware, all her weapons systems had also previously been used in other ship classes (converted WW2 Cruisers).

================

On the other hand, just about *everything* in the Zumwalt class is either new, or new to the USN. Seems like a big risk to be taking to put so many new things on a single (radical design) hull.
 

AegisFC

Super Moderator
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  • #272
The British and French had already built ironclad warships by then. Lets face it, Monitor wasnt exactly a flawless design.
She was designed for littoral use and not open ocean ops, so her demise shouldn't surprise anyone.
Her design and construction were revolutionary, especially her turret.


She was a logical development based on the development of the warships of the time. Fairly sure her only *technical* advancement as such was the use of parsons turbines for propulsion?
Those were a big deal, as was the uniform main battery.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Long Beach had one main technological advancement, the Nuclear reactor, but even that had been used on previous sea going ships previously. As far as I am aware, all her weapons systems had also previously been used in other ship classes (converted WW2 Cruisers).
First nuclear surface combatant but her radar and combat system suite was very ambitious for the era (and that is what I was thinking about). The ship was primarily built as a test bed for SCANFAR, and when it worked (not that often sadly) it was a good system but it had too many tubes and it was overly complicated but it paved the way for other naval phased array radars.
 

fretburner

Banned Member
Meanwhile its supposed to be backed up by the LCS of which 80% of the vessel's firepower isnt even ready yet and which has a horrible maintanence record to rival any i've heard of. And which even the navy cant say with a straight face is a match for much besides really stupid pirates......
I'm not sure about this, but I think I've read somewhere that the Zumwalts are going to be more electric than any other ship before her and are potentially the first to use lasers and maybe a test vessel for railguns? Again, I'm not sure about this. Maybe it was sci fi stuff I read or some bogus article.

It aint good.

DDG-51 III is a expansion of a proven hull design and ship design. It will incorperate some new tech from the DDG-1000 line and be longer and wider to acomidate a increase in VLS a new radar and more CIWS stations. Yes it is larger and heavier but because its still fullfilling the missions of the DDG its destroyer.

Steady Evolution of a system and ship. Not quantom leaps that half the time are wasted.
You don't think the USN can build their own version of the SR-71 or B-2?

I understand that incremental improvements are easier and cheaper, and that considering that the other Navies are a little far behind the USN, they might be more logical in these times -- but I sincerely hope the USN can pull of building a ship which truly will be a quantum leap.
 

Belesari

New Member
I'm not sure about this, but I think I've read somewhere that the Zumwalts are going to be more electric than any other ship before her and are potentially the first to use lasers and maybe a test vessel for railguns? Again, I'm not sure about this. Maybe it was sci fi stuff I read or some bogus article.


You don't think the USN can build their own version of the SR-71 or B-2?

I understand that incremental improvements are easier and cheaper, and that considering that the other Navies are a little far behind the USN, they might be more logical in these times -- but I sincerely hope the USN can pull of building a ship which truly will be a quantum leap.
Ships arent planes. A B-2 may have a mission that 24 or 48 hrs tops a ship may need to be deployed for over a year. In that time men and women are going to be eating, sleeping, craping, playing around, exorciseing, working and a host of other things. Meanwhile the vessel may operate in anything from reletively flat seas to massive waves and huricanes. All the while the basic role of the ship determines its crewsize, shape, systems, etc.

Minehunters need to be manuverable shallow drafted yet also shock resistent while doing their jobs.

Not only that but the ways the fleets and ships are used is different from nation to nation.

To put it another way.

Imagine if the SR-71 had to do everything from air superiority (inc. dogfights etc) to transport, bombing, recon, ground support like a warthog, ALL while still being able to go mach 3+?

Not possible. Not practicle. That is what the Navy asked for though. Originaly the LCS was a small cheap basicly Large cheap patrol vessel. It morphed into something the size of a ww2 destroyer with less firepower and a humongous price tag. DDG-1K became a ship with so much new tech which is unproven that even after they are launched they will still be indock (Like the LCS) for years to come constantly having upgrades and maintanence done. Whats worse both ships will be undermanned.

BTW the Technology that is a Part of the DDG1k program isnt what is in question here. Its putting all of this onto ONE vessel without testing it on others for awhile therefore they MUST work.

The all electric drive is something the Navy has needed for awhile just maybe not the engines as they are a problem. Various other systems Great.

Remember the problem wasnt the ships but the people who asked for such a bad Mission design (Navy) and the people who came up with it (the company-GD).

Oh and at 3.3 billion each at launch they are to big to fail and to damn expensive.
 

colay

New Member
One can\t really pass judgment on the DDG-1000 as the ink is probably still wet on the contract to build the first ship - literally.
There is always risk in implementing a new technology and naturally the risk is greater if more new technologies are implemented. Still, there are tremendous benefits to be gained if you are successful and manage to apply lessons from experience in similarly complex programs to mitigate risk. (edit) Re LCS, the outgoing CNO seems pleased with what the program has accomplished to-date. Yes, the program has a long way to go, the mission modules are still a work-in-progress, they will run into problems but these will be resolved.. par for the course in these types of programs.
One has to look at the program thru Navy eyes, what role they expect the LCS to play, how it will interoperate with other USN and joint assets to pass judgment on its effectiveness. Otherwise, to judge it by some other standard, it will always come up short.
 

rip

New Member
One can\t really pass judgment on the DDG-1000 as the ink is probably still wet on the contract to build the first ship - literally.
There is always risk in implementing a new technology and naturally the risk is greater if more new technologies are implemented. Still, there are tremendous benefits to be gained if you are successful and manage to apply lessons from experience in similarly complex programs to mitigate risk. (edit) Re LCS, the outgoing CNO seems pleased with what the program has accomplished to-date. Yes, the program has a long way to go, the mission modules are still a work-in-progress, they will run into problems but these will be resolved.. par for the course in these types of programs.
One has to look at the program thru Navy eyes, what role they expect the LCS to play, how it will interoperate with other USN and joint assets to pass judgment on its effectiveness. Otherwise, to judge it by some other standard, it will always come up short.
As far as the LCS is concerned its greatest advantage is its modular approach, with it, it has the ability to respond to changing requirements more quickly. The treads in naval deployment are starkly obvious to all; ships are now required to stay in services for longer periods of time while at the same time, battle requirements and missions are changing faster than ever before. The modular approach of both building ships and then up-grading them to take advantage of their modular qualities have not yet been worked out very well as of yet, but they will get a lot of practice and we can expect them to get better at it.

As for the low manning levels it may require a complete brake with naval tradition. Always in the past the crew maintained the ship, it was their home and their live depended on it in times of peace and war. They maintained the equipment that they operated for the most part. If it worked they used it, if it didn’t they fixed it. And outside maintenance services though vital, were often very substandard in so many ways. Sailors will tell stories for hours and hours about their yard and overhaul experiences and they are seldom nice stories about what they did to their home.

It may become that just like aircraft, that the people that fix the platforms will be different ones form the people that operate them? As the ships get more complicated and the crews get smaller and cutting edge equipment is never the most reliable just because it is cutting edge, it may come to pass.
 

Belesari

New Member
But they HAVE said how they intend for the LCS to work............and it wont.

We Need cheap multirole frigates........but they wont buy that. They want a 50kt beast which does absolutly nothing well.

When one of your selling points is "we can use the wake of a LCS to capsize pirate boats" you should shut up and rethink the whole plan.

Imagine how much cheaper it could have been if they had just gone with your standard 20-28kt frigate requirement Then said, we want 2 basic frigate designs that share as much comonality across the board with exceptions for mission skills.

Type A: ASW/ASuW for fleet work and Sub hunting

Type B: Specializing in Coastal/ Littorals.

Then you could say lets see what new technology could help with. But because of All the compromises put into the LCS its a nightmare. When men wealding AK-47s can shoot through the hull and your ships cracking with every month of limited operations?

As for the CNO and all the others......of course they are happy its their baby. Especially when they are getting higherd by austal and friends and others after they retire.

The program should have been pulled the moment the navy said they were going to use both...............which totaly destroyed they who cheap common parts thing as they dont share well.

One can\t really pass judgment on the DDG-1000 as the ink is probably still wet on the contract to build the first ship - literally.
There is always risk in implementing a new technology and naturally the risk is greater if more new technologies are implemented. Still, there are tremendous benefits to be gained if you are successful and manage to apply lessons from experience in similarly complex programs to mitigate risk. (edit) Re LCS, the outgoing CNO seems pleased with what the program has accomplished to-date. Yes, the program has a long way to go, the mission modules are still a work-in-progress, they will run into problems but these will be resolved.. par for the course in these types of programs.
One has to look at the program thru Navy eyes, what role they expect the LCS to play, how it will interoperate with other USN and joint assets to pass judgment on its effectiveness. Otherwise, to judge it by some other standard, it will always come up short.
 

Belesari

New Member
They tried that.......it was called optimal manning and guess what doesnt work.

Not only that its more expensive and what if they ship takes damage in a storm or in a engagment? Not only that but the sailors are sailing on her get to know the ship better than any mechanic.

Another thing. You can't say "wait a sec guys we need to do some work on our ships so can we take a day off or maybe 2 months?". No the work would need to be done while the ship was at sea.

This is something the LCS was built for. Guess what? They stay in port all the time.

Modular is fine. Except what if your using the wrong modual. Then you must go to the nearest port, a port which must have the loading cranes, access to a large landing strip for the C-17 (which are already hard to get sense they are always in demand) that is carrying the Modual and crew (because some moduals have different crew requirments). Then pull the old one out, put the new one in check to make sure it works. Then Refuel (because these things have crap range at high speed). So then its already been what 36-48hrs sense the call came in and someone has either delt with it or the situation has changed.

The problem with LCS, DDG-1K all of them is that they work on a few asumptions.

1) Nothing goes wrong.

2) The US Knows litteraly everything a week before it happens and that nothing is ignored.

Thats just a couple. Anyone see the problem. I appologise if i get worked up but having watched this program for years, talked with the sailors who will be a part of it who say it looks like a cluster flunk, Talked with the ship builders who can tell me all the nightmares they see here.......My mind is blown trying to figure out how such programs can still exist in the real world.


As far as the LCS is concerned its greatest advantage is its modular approach, with it, it has the ability to respond to changing requirements more quickly. The treads in naval deployment are starkly obvious to all; ships are now required to stay in services for longer periods of time while at the same time, battle requirements and missions are changing faster than ever before. The modular approach of both building ships and then up-grading them to take advantage of their modular qualities have not yet been worked out very well as of yet, but they will get a lot of practice and we can expect them to get better at it.

As for the low manning levels it may require a complete brake with naval tradition. Always in the past the crew maintained the ship, it was their home and their live depended on it in times of peace and war. They maintained the equipment that they operated for the most part. If it worked they used it, if it didn’t they fixed it. And outside maintenance services though vital, were often very substandard in so many ways. Sailors will tell stories for hours and hours about their yard and overhaul experiences and they are seldom nice stories about what they did to their home.

It may become that just like aircraft, that the people that fix the platforms will be different ones form the people that operate them? As the ships get more complicated and the crews get smaller and cutting edge equipment is never the most reliable just because it is cutting edge, it may come to pass.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
They might be effective warships, they may be disasters. Look at the number of new things going on in that class of ships.

- Brand new radar
- Brand new VLS Cells
- Brand new hull form
- Brand new barrel launched missile system (6" AGS)
- New to the USN Propulsion system (similar to T45 IEP isnt it?)
- New to the USN Crew saving automation (based on LCS??)

How many new operational combat ship classes throughout history have this many new innovations on them?

The design is for a technological testbed.

Edit: And just about all current destroyer classes should be classified as cruisers based on size and role.

A couple of comments here, and linked in with AegisFC shortlist.

The issue is not so much about what vessel carried new technology, but what that vessel did to create a change in capability constructs and how the concept of operations (CONOPS) sometimes dramatically changed.

Those vessels triggered change dramatic to the point where in some cases their near peers were regarded as obsolete overnight.

USS Monitor

whats more important IMO is that even though Gt Britain had been running iron clads prior to the US, it was the US that gave the design momentum and shifted it from the inertia that ironclads were in. eg ironclads and turrets even though it was fought to a draw showed that manouvre for obtaining best firing solution had just been rewritten. ie the turretted ironclad could dictate angles of engagement without going through excruciating manouvre which not only wasted time, but was subject to currents, placement etc..., low draft on the same vessel meant that those vessels could go in close to a bank while a traditional vessel could not manouvre with the same dexterity and possibly lose its optimum firing position.

Even though Lake Eyre etc were brown water wars (with green water weather conditions) they showed what was coming. Look at the US Canada war of 1812 and events on Lake Eyre. If those ships had been monitors then the outcomes would have dictated some different outcomes. Whoever owned Lake Eyre dictated invasion and engagement points.

HMS Dreadnaught.

It was about uniform yield of throw and speed, their were heavier gunned ships to compete, but none had the same turret placement, absolute weapons to bear uniform weight yield advantage and speed. Dreadnought literally turned near peer navies obsolete to the point where a number of navies terminated ship constrcution to revisit design. Gt Britain completely dislocated the power of all her competitors "overnight"

HMS Argus and USS Langley

They were advanced enough for smaller navies to understand that the carrier could take away the absolute advantage of heavy gunned ships. eg both the US and Japan understood that concept, the advocates within their navies fully grasped what Mitchell achieved against McArthur in the 1920's-1930's trials
Again, it was a sea change in conops impact.. Remember that in the 20's both the US and Japan regarded the UK as a threat to their presence due to undue influence heavily underlined by sea power. Gt Britain was Japans baseline reference model and stayed very close to RN developments from 1898 through to the late 30's. The US was slower off the mark due to tribal wars between the USN and USAAC about the effectivess of battleships, vs bombers, vs carriers (which they didn't understand properly even straight after Mitchells demonstration of capability). Ironically for Gt Britain, the US, even with its service tribal wars understood the impact of carrier air much faster than the RN did. The Japanese saw it straight away

USS Long Beach.
Nuclear power, the first non carrier iteration of primitive phased array (albeit clunky and energy hungry tubes). It was her impact as a companion system that had the most impact even though the idea was shelved within a generation

Enterprise, Long Beach, Truxton and Bainbridge spooked other navies as at a combat level the USN could literally field a fuel independant force and fight wherever she wanted without having to have RAS. The nuke carrier double dutied as RAS. A literal independance of action and force delivery. A GM nuke cruiser was a serious contender, and her array was an unknown quantity but immediately implied hemispherical detection and immediacy of detection. The fact that Enterprise and Long Beach were both fielding primitive array systems did cause some concern.
 

colay

New Member
Again, IMO its really of questionnable merit to declare something a failure when only a couple of hulls (i.e. LCS)) and zero hulls (i.e. DDG1000) have been built.I'm sure the LCS, specially being a,new pltform, has spent its share of time tied up t the dock. But its also clocked up a successful record on deployment.
Bottom line is the USN spec'ed out the ships to meet their vision of how the fleet will operate in the coming years and decades. Its also to beexpected that as more experience is gained, they will discover novel ways to deploy,these assets, some probably not even envisioned when they were conceived. So any judgment on the LCS or Zumwalt at this point is really just speculation.
 
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