Ukranian Crisis

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gazzzwp

Member
The US will help Ukraine enhance its defense capabilities according to a cooperation agreement on defense technology. The agreement will improve Ukraine's Armed Forces which have been fighting in the ongoing conflict in the country's east.

US to help Ukraine strengthen its military according to a new agreement
Thanks for sharing the article. I for one am pleased that the West is standing up for itself at long last and doing something positive instead of just offering warm words of encouragement. I just wonder what Russia's response to this will be.

I see in a sub-link to this article that Lithuania are already supplying ammunition.

Lithuania supplies Ukraine with ammunition to help in its fight against pro-Russian separatists | Echelon-Defense
 

PO2GRV

Member
Report today that "russian spetznaz" attacked across border in East Ukraine killing a few and wounding dozen more. Only article i can find is behind paywall. Still looking
 

Toblerone

Banned Member
Report today that "russian spetznaz" attacked across border in East Ukraine killing a few and wounding dozen more. Only article i can find is behind paywall. Still looking
Classic case of blaming each other, it is hard to know what really happened. Except the resulting casualties, which are confirmed by the ukrainian side if I understood correctly with a quick glance.

https://southfront.org/battle-near-luhansk-2-ukrainian-soldiers-killed-5-wounded-1-went-missing/
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Report today that "russian spetznaz" attacked across border in East Ukraine killing a few and wounding dozen more. Only article i can find is behind paywall. Still looking
Yeah, SpetzNaz, Tank Divisions, and in one case a claim of a road-mobile ICBM in rebel hands, not to mention the Ukrainian MinDefs statement about Ukraine getting nuked (literally) at the Donetsk Airport (I know the level of incompetence is staggering but come on). I would take any claims of such things with a tablespoon of salt. Are Russian SpN operating in Ukraine episodically? Quite likely. Are we likely to get accurate information on it from the press? Not so likely.

Meanwhile LNR and DNR leadership have announced a one-sided ceasefire, where they will stop returning fire. This comes after a very bloody summer, and probably has to do with the end of the Ukrainian summer push. The ceasefire kicks in as of 0000 hours Sept 15th Moscow time. The leaders of both republics stated that they hope this will send a message to Ukraine, and that if Ukraine is serious about ending the conflict, they will follow suit.

Personally I doubt this will last long, it's probably a political move more then anything else, as well as the hope that the OSCE will take note of shellings from the Ukrainian side with an absence of similar shellings from the rebel side.
 

Toblerone

Banned Member
At long last we have conclusive evidence that the BUK was fired by Russian supported separatists. Now they are looking at the chain of command to try and press for a criminal case.

I personally never thought there was any doubt. Interesting to see what Russia's reaction will be.

MH17 report: Plane downed by Buk missile from Russia - CNN.com
The russians already published this information
https://southfront.org/russia-says-radar-data-shows-no-missile-attack-on-mh17-from-rebel-side/

And also now emphasize this:
https://www.rt.com/news/360925-mh17-crash-jit-report/
However, the criminal investigation has not directly linked Russia to the downing of the plane, Dutch chief-prosecutor Fred Westerbeke said.

“We have determined that the weapons came from the Russian Federation. Having established this, we do not make statements about the participation of the Russian Federation as a nation or people from the Russian Federation,” the official said.
In my opinion the rebels were using russian air defence systems, had already brought down some big ukrainian birds, they screwed up and brought down an airliner and then sent the system back to Russia and they started a propaganda and obfuscation effort to make this embarassment go away.

For me it isn't any more interesting than that and I don't expect anything to come of this or any other investigation.

I am not sure what the aviation rules are but maybe in the future no-fly zones should be established over territories that are in war. Even if the costs for the airline companies would rise.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I am not sure what the aviation rules are but maybe in the future no-fly zones should be established over territories that are in war. Even if the costs for the airline companies would rise.
A no-fly zone should be frigging mandatory. The increase in operating costs are minimal compared to the capital cost of a jet, not to mention the loss of life and legal costs for such a loss of life.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The russians already published this information
https://southfront.org/russia-says-radar-data-shows-no-missile-attack-on-mh17-from-rebel-side/

And also now emphasize this:
https://www.rt.com/news/360925-mh17-crash-jit-report/


In my opinion the rebels were using russian air defence systems, had already brought down some big ukrainian birds, they screwed up and brought down an airliner and then sent the system back to Russia and they started a propaganda and obfuscation effort to make this embarassment go away.

For me it isn't any more interesting than that and I don't expect anything to come of this or any other investigation.

I am not sure what the aviation rules are but maybe in the future no-fly zones should be established over territories that are in war. Even if the costs for the airline companies would rise.
I would dispute the RT claim that "However, the criminal investigation has not directly linked Russia to the downing of the plane, Dutch chief-prosecutor Fred Westerbeke said." I watched the press conference during which the JIT presented a 10 minute animation that which showed the journey of the BUK launcher, whilst it was in the separatist controlled territory showing it leaving from Russia, travelling to the launch site and returning to Russia. Photographs and video of it on a red low loader being towed by a white Volvo truck as well as it moving under its own power to the launch site were part of the animation. This was backed up with intercepted telephone traffic. RT is also known for its unfamiliarity with the truth.
 

Toblerone

Banned Member
Just because the equipment was provided by Russia doesn't mean the country is directly responsible for the downing of the plane. It is indirectly responsible.

Also, it contains a quote from a dutch official. Is that a direct quote or is RT misquoting?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
The investigation should also probe, why the airspace over conflict area being open for International Civilian Route. With the Russian backed seperatist already shown capabilities to shoot down high flying Ukraine Transport, then the European civil authority should close the route.

Putting criminal investigation to one of the party on shooting down civilian airliner..will only be politically backed accusation. However probing on why the route being open when the Autority body should realise this is a heavily fighting conflict zone..it's more matter for future practices.

Ukraine should also open for responsibility by covering up the danger of the route, if it's proven they do not comunicate to Europe Civil Authority on the danger for civilian flights, knowing that they already lost their aircrafts on simmilar hights in that particular area.

Ukraine should also answered that, or it will be seen by non western audiences that perhaps Ukraine deliberately open the route hoping for some kind of incidents on civilian planes over conflict zone.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The problem with any criminal proceedings is that you would have to prove intent. Accidentally downing an airliner isn't in itself criminal, it's collateral damage. Ukraine downed a Russian airliner in 2001. The US downed an Iranian jet over the Persian Gulf during the late '80s, and that wasn't even a warzone. The typical modus operandi for this sort of incident does not involve war crimes tribunals, which makes this look very political.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Just because the equipment was provided by Russia doesn't mean the country is directly responsible for the downing of the plane. It is indirectly responsible.

Also, it contains a quote from a dutch official. Is that a direct quote or is RT misquoting?
For somebody who links Syrian rebel actions directly to the US because of it's weapons supply to some groups and doesn't get tired of criticising the West for meddling in other countries this is a remarkebly statement...
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The problem with any criminal proceedings is that you would have to prove intent. Accidentally downing an airliner isn't in itself criminal, it's collateral damage. Ukraine downed a Russian airliner in 2001. The US downed an Iranian jet over the Persian Gulf during the late '80s, and that wasn't even a warzone. The typical modus operandi for this sort of incident does not involve war crimes tribunals, which makes this look very political.
The political side to it is the deliberate attempt to not just blame an accident on someone else but to claim, and even falsify evidence to try and prove it was a deliberate act.

First of all high end equipment and personnel were being provided to rebel forces while specifically denying they were doing so. As part of the subterfuge the equipment was not being deployed with an appropriate level of command and control facilities that could have prevented the misidentification of the target. The equipment and personnel were also being withdrawn back across the border to prevent retaliatory strikes. It was a deniable military incursion into a sovereign state to punish them for not doing what they were told.

Having done this, and even though blind Freddie knew they were doing it, they couldn't just say, whoops sorry, so they continued to deny. Then came the claims that they had tracked a Ukrainian fighter aircraft intercepting the airliner, including photoshopped satellite images, followed by claims it was a BUK but a Ukrainian one fired from government controlled territory, a fiction that is still being pushed with doctored radar tracks.

Yes it is political, very political on the Russian side, they stuffed up but admitting this doesn't fit the Russia strong, Putin great mythos. The propaganda isn't so much for the rest of the world as for home consumption. The biggest difference between the Vincennes incident and this one is questions were asked and the truth was revealed very quickly, it was pretty much the end of the captains career and the US expressed regret and paid compensation.
 

Toblerone

Banned Member
For somebody who links Syrian rebel actions directly to the US because of it's weapons supply to some groups and doesn't get tired of criticising the West for meddling in other countries this is a remarkebly statement...
Why? I have always said that I agree that Russia was sending equipment and "volunteers". And that this shoot down was done with a russian system provided to the rebels.

But it was accidental. Also, they are equipping russians at a neighbouring country that had a coup and some ultranationalists in power, that's understandable. The USA and their saudi allies equipping beheaders on the other side of the globe, not so much.

You should very easily be noticing the difference between the two proxy wars and why I disagree with the US policies in the Middle East but not with the Ukrainian conflict. If you are impartial. It is not fair to accuse me of having double standards.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Why? I have always said that I agree that Russia was sending equipment and "volunteers". And that this shoot down was done with a russian system provided to the rebels.

But it was accidental. Also, they are equipping russians at a neighbouring country that had a coup and some ultranationalists in power, that's understandable. The USA and their saudi allies equipping beheaders on the other side of the globe, not so much.

You should very easily be noticing the difference between the two proxy wars and why I disagree with the US policies in the Middle East but not with the Ukrainian conflict. If you are impartial. It is not fair to accuse me of having double standards.
How do you know it was accidental? That hasn't been confirmed and the converse that it was a deliberate act hasn't been confirmed either. The routing of MH17 was well known in advance and it would have been familiar route to many people. That shoot down was a shoot and scoot mission and if they were after Ukrainian Air Force aircraft why wasn't the launcher repositioned elsewhere within the rebel controlled area for further action because they still had 3 missiles left.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Running back across the border was understandable if they'd not meant to shoot down the airliner. Trying to pretend they'd not done it, after realising their mistake.

I'm not saying that was what happened, but it's credible.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
How do you know it was accidental? That hasn't been confirmed and the converse that it was a deliberate act hasn't been confirmed either. The routing of MH17 was well known in advance and it would have been familiar route to many people. That shoot down was a shoot and scoot mission and if they were after Ukrainian Air Force aircraft why wasn't the launcher repositioned elsewhere within the rebel controlled area for further action because they still had 3 missiles left.
Was it a shoot and scoot? Or was it a normal air defense mission followed by an "oh shit we got an airliner" run across the border?

There's several things to consider. First off they initially claimed, the rebels, that they shot down a Ukrainian military transport. A silly claim to make if you knew you were shooting at an airliner. It basically admits guilt. Second off, Ukrainian aircraft had been in the area that day, despite their current denials, and there were eye witnesses. Third off there were air resupplies flown into Lugansk earlier where Ukrainian troops were surrounded. Now Ukrainian troops were surrounded at Izvarino, and it's not impossible that they thought similar attempts might be made, hence the deployment of the Buk systems there. Fourthly, this has been discussed before, but the Buk TELAR by itself is incomplete. It's meant to have a btln command point, and a search and track radar, not just its own FCS radar. Multiply an incomplete system by an incompetent crew and mistakes become increasingly likely. A final thought. What would the purpose be? Clearly it brought Russia nothing but trouble. What possible motivation could there have been? Russia has agents within Ukraine, including the military. I would be surprised if Russia didn't have the ability to actually use a Ukrainian system to do something like this instead of the whole circus with a Russian system entering and then leaving. Not to mention that no special efforts were made to hide its entry. It entered, like other Russian military aid, fairly openly. To the point where internet bloggers were able to map its path long before the investigation report came out.

There's also a couple of things that clearly point to a political motive behind many of the accusations. Keep in mind motivation doesn't invalidate the facts but it does mean we have to consider the implications more carefully. First off Ukraine was treated as a full partner in the investigative proceedings despite being far less then reliable. Doctored materials and staged photos are a regular feature of Ukrainian officialdom. It got so bad that some of their evidence submitted to the US, of Russian involvement in the war, was doctored. Why is this so bad? Because plenty of real evidence was to be had. But they were so used to manufacturing it that they never bothered. Meanwhile Russia was basically presumed guilty and Russian materials were treated accordingly. Second off there were demands for a war crimes tribunal before any conclusion had been reached. Certainly long before such nuance as intent could be examined with any degree of impartiality. And yet an accusation of war crimes requires intent. This to me says that the conclusion was reached by political decision makers for political reasons long before real evidence was examined, and the process of examining the evidence was merely procedure, with no real impact on the political demands and pressure that Russia has and will face.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Russian theories and the material provided by them changed so often that it's hard to take them seriously.

I mean they basically proved themselves to be liars with the "new" radar images they released some days ago...
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Russian theories and the material provided by them changed so often that it's hard to take them seriously.

I mean they basically proved themselves to be liars with the "new" radar images they released some days ago...
Don't confuse official theories and theories floated in media. ;)

And while I'm not surprised that they've managed to indict themselves, this has little to do with an investigation that finished almost at the same time as those photos came out. To be honest my biggest problem isn't that Russia was removed from the investigative process, it's that Ukraine was allowed to participate. Neither party should've been allowed near it.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Agree, any investigations that included either one or both parties in conflict..when the incident happen due to conflicts it self..already 'flawn' frm begining. Ukraine is responsible by allowing airspace over conflict zone open..when Ukraine it self can not guarantee its own aircraft safety on that particular route..

This investigation is already political motivated frm begining..and will deemed meaningless in the end for any diplomatic sollution..
 
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