Turkish M60A1 upgrade

[Soner1980]

I see tanks as a 'low rider' because of their suspension can deliver a flip over on even a modern Abrams tank.

The Sabra is a M60 with more modern euipment, heavier and better protected than the original M60. Turkey will use this tank against Mid-Eastern T-72 or even the Iranian Solfiqar (if it's real). The Sabra was also planned to put in fronline in Thrace against the Greek Leo-2, because of it's 120mm gun ofcourse. But now receiving 298 leo-2 MBT, Sabra's will be used against Iran, Armenia and Syria and I don't know if the upgrade will be expanded to all of the M60's. Turkey also have a tech transfor for all systems except the armor. Pakistan is ready to transfer the composite armor plating technology to ussssssss

Agains, Sabra is not to compare with any NATO tank of present time because it is a upgrade not a production line. The firing capabilities can be agreed when said it comes close to the Leo-2 or M1A1 but mobility? Think not. The Armor is like a Leo-2A4 or the first M1 Abrams tank. (I Think, not sure)

 

[beleg]

An IMI officer had said the additional armor on M60Ts are the same armor used on Merkava4 if i remember correctly. The tanks are supposed to receive a direct punch and survive from the front from most modern tanks.

 

[Soner1980]

I also read something about the Sabra upgrade for the Turkish M60's. The Armor (especially the front) is almost invulnerable to all shots including point blanc range without DU ammo. The sides are somewhat more vulnerable but this is in all MBT's the same. Look to the Abrams disables by a 7,62mm AK-47 round in Iraq...

The Sabra is a good upgrade for a M60 tank when the enemy does not have much modern than the T-72. But I think it can also be useful against a T-80 when using in Turkish soil (because of the mountains there is mostly dog fight scenario's) when Iran 'maybe' attacks Turkey sometime and also have bought T-80's or equivelant Russian MBT's.

 

[Stimpy75]

I also read something about the Sabra upgrade for the Turkish M60's. The Armor (especially the front) is almost invulnerable to all shots including point blanc range without DU ammo. The sides are somewhat more vulnerable but this is in all MBT's the same. Look to the Abrams disables by a 7,62mm AK-47 round in Iraq....

What? an abrams disabled by a 7,62 mm round
yeah,whatever!!!!show me plz a proof of that!!!!!!!

 

[Waylander]

There were some problems with the external APUs. Some caught fire when shot at with small arms and burning fuel began to run into the engine compartement.
This would be the sole exception I can remember of where Abrams have had problems with small arms fire.

 

[Grand Danois]

There has been some pics of a pencil-like penetration to an Abrams circulating on the net some months ago. IIRC that hole was made from a RPG-29 or something similar.

I have a suspicion that a rumor is circulating that this penetration was caused by a AK-47 DU round. I have seen it twice on DT now, and I suspect it relate to above mentioned instance.

 

[eckherl]

These upgrades are a lot cheaper than an M1A1. The unit price for the the first 170, which includes development costs & setting up a factory, is much less than Australia is paying for second-hand refurbished M1A1.

I do agree with you - but Australia does have a better tank with good offensive capability. The sabra upgrade will give the M60 are better overall performance in a defensive battle posture, after serving on one of these old reliable work horses for 6 years before going to the M1 series it`s good to see it is still soldiering on.

 

[eckherl]

I also read something about the Sabra upgrade for the Turkish M60's. The Armor (especially the front) is almost invulnerable to all shots including point blanc range without DU ammo. The sides are somewhat more vulnerable but this is in all MBT's the same. Look to the Abrams disables by a 7,62mm AK-47 round in Iraq...

The Sabra is a good upgrade for a M60 tank when the enemy does not have much modern than the T-72. But I think it can also be useful against a T-80 when using in Turkish soil (because of the mountains there is mostly dog fight scenario's) when Iran 'maybe' attacks Turkey sometime and also have bought T-80's or equivelant Russian MBT's.

Iran is leaning towards the T-72 upgrade T-90.

 

[PlasmaKrab]

One of the things the Sabra has, that no local OPFOR tanks have (considering the Middle East front) is thermal imaging. If it is supposed to pack some LAHATs in the neat future, it should be able to take on anything Syria or Iran can throw at it and send them home whining.
I know that at least Iran has T-72s upgraded at least to the BV standard, (maybe S, if that makes any difference), and they certainly would be glad to get their hand on some T-90s, as would Syria. Still, I don't see these two countries shedding enough bucks (or having enough political say) to get really meaningful upgrades like Kontakt-5 ERA, DU rounds, T-80U FC or Agava TI.

Since their high-intensity-warfare tactics may not have changed since they were copy-pasted from Soviet manuals, even Sabras in a good integrated defence could deal with them without worries, in case of a direct encounter with enough warning time.
The only possibility is for Syrian or Iranian forces to outmaneuver Turkish defences (supposing they have only Sabras, non-upgraded M60A3s and M48A5Ts, and light armor coherent with that), but that wouldn't make them last much longer.
I guess Turkey has a decent amount of MRLs, some spotter UAVs, local air superiority, decent strike fighters? See where that lead us? Mobile tanks aren't enough...

 

[eckherl]

One of the things the Sabra has, that no local OPFOR tanks have (considering the Middle East front) is thermal imaging. If it is supposed to pack some LAHATs in the neat future, it should be able to take on anything Syria or Iran can throw at it and send them home whining.
I know that at least Iran has T-72s upgraded at least to the BV standard, (maybe S, if that makes any difference), and they certainly would be glad to get their hand on some T-90s, as would Syria. Still, I don't see these two countries shedding enough bucks (or having enough political say) to get really meaningful upgrades like Kontakt-5 ERA, DU rounds, T-80U FC or Agava TI.

Since their high-intensity-warfare tactics may not have changed since they were copy-pasted from Soviet manuals, even Sabras in a good integrated defence could deal with them without worries, in case of a direct encounter with enough warning time.
The only possibility is for Syrian or Iranian forces to outmaneuver Turkish defences (supposing they have only Sabras, non-upgraded M60A3s and M48A5Ts, and light armor coherent with that), but that wouldn't make them last much longer.
I guess Turkey has a decent amount of MRLs, some spotter UAVs, local air superiority, decent strike fighters? See where that lead us? Mobile tanks aren't enough...

We also need to keep in mind that Turkey is part of NATO, that would give Iran and Syria other major problems.

 

[Waylander]

I think integrating Lahat would not be a good idea.
Not with a day optic of x8 and a TI of x5.3 it would be wasted money because you cannot use the Lahat for what it is supposed to do. Attacking at big ranges.

 

[beleg]

Waylander, the lahat can always be guided by helos or forward scouts at its range limits.

Although Turkey has shown interest in lahat , the fate of its procurement is unknown. For a while it was speculated that the ammunition would come with M60Ts but its probable that this is not the case...

However one can never be sure.. After almost a decade of speculation, we have seen the WS-1 in parades this year, perhaps lahat is waiting in storage, waiting for the day it will be photographed by an enthusiast in a military parade display..

 

[Waylander]

Why should I use Lahat and reveal the position of the tank when a normal infantrymen or weapons carrier can also do this with a Spike ER without needing to show the Sabra position to the enemy?
I really don't see the benefits of euqipping a tank with a weapon he is not able to use on its own.

 

[Soner1980]

According to the Hurriyet (Turkish) newspaper, the turret was pennetrated and the gunner was wounded by it's shoulder. Also, the Russian lab confirmed that they worked for a small calliber AT-round. Do you remember the PTRS-41 14,5mm AT-Rifle that destroyed many German tanks from 1941 till 1943 in the second war? (Mostly Pz-I Pz-II, Pz-III and the early variants of Pz-IV) I think this era has come back. 12,7mm anti-material / sniper rifles, etc..

There were some problems with the external APUs. Some caught fire when shot at with small arms and burning fuel began to run into the engine compartement.
This would be the sole exception I can remember of where Abrams have had problems with small arms fire.

 

[Waylander]

You cannot really compare a 12.7mm Sniper Rifle like the Barret to real AT-Weapons.
I do not believe that the era of small calibre AT-Weapons as come back.
For example if you look at how the calibre of IFVs rises you see that small calibres just don't give you enough performance.

 

[Soner1980]

Why not Waylander, I saw something in Discovery Channel. Yes it's not right in such programs but 30 years ago our parents used the mobile phone jokes and today we call with mobile phones.

According to the Discovery channels program, the US weapon producers are working for a 12,7mm round that has a guidance system and is able to destroy a modern MBT. The shell is guided by a laser unit and by heating the butt of the shell, the copper will increase in size in a specific part and will make a correction when influenced by the wind. The shell has a mini warhead that explodes. I saw a tank possibly a Chieftain what was hit from the side and the turret exploded. The gunner said it aimed to the ammo storage.

Whatever it's true, I don't know because it's from the TV. But there are shells from the 25mm ATK Bushmaster that penetrated T-72's from the side in the 1991 gulf war.

You cannot really compare a 12.7mm Sniper Rifle like the Barret to real AT-Weapons.
I do not believe that the era of small calibre AT-Weapons as come back.
For example if you look at how the calibre of IFVs rises you see that small calibres just don't give you enough performance.

 

[swerve]

We also need to keep in mind that Turkey is part of NATO, that would give Iran and Syria other major problems.

Yes, if they attack Turkey. But if Turkey felt a need to undertake military action against either of them, it would not necessarily have NATO backing.

 

[Soner1980]

When in war, Turkey is able to fight all surrounding countries that face them. What is Syria? I don't count Syria as an opposing army because the country is very poor and inept in training. They face very big troubles like their AFV fleet. One of them is (also the biggest) that Syria has the worlds largest tank army but from the 25,000 MBT's only 300 of them are operational, mostly the T-72's and others still not maintained or knocked out by the Jews in the Yom Kipur war.

Iraq does not have a large army anymore but it is also not an enemy today because of the new regime, Iran has big numbers but they lack good training. War is not only launching missiles to the enemy. Ok, Iran is not to be underestimated but Turkey is able to win by it's superior training and more high-tech weaponry. When I think back to Iran-Iraq war, Iranian army lack also motivation. But especially tacktics of higher ranked officers may be the worst to the Iranian army. The Air Force is nothing to the Turkish Airforce and naval force vice versa. The Iranian anti-ship missiles is still nothing compared to Turkish Harpoon cruise-missiles.

The other smaller countries like Armenia or Greece, it's like laying a stone on the train rails and watch the train passing.

We also need to keep in mind that Turkey is part of NATO, that would give Iran and Syria other major problems.

 

[Waylander]

There were also Abrams penetrated by 25mmDU from the rear and rear side but that is normal.
With new IFVs being introduced and being all aorund protected against 14.5mm AP and RPGs and being frontally protected against 30mm AP i really doubt that the armor piercing technology is able to counter this with small calibres.
As you said maybe in the future but there could also be new and revolutionary armor types in the future.

 

[Waylander]

You are right about that we don't need to talk about the ability of the neighbours to overcome the defense of Turkey.
But for a mobile offensive the Sabra is really not the best choice it is just not mobile enough. If for example the Syrians have a mobile defense the Sabras would not be able to run through the enemy lines like the Turkey LeoIIA4 would be.
While facing Sabras it would be easier for the T-72s to retread into another fire position and start a new game.

And Greece being just a small stone in the way of the Turkey?
You don't really mean that, don't you?