The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

Feanor · Mar 17, 2024

Fredled said:
Men in occupied territories are in no hurry to take their Russian passport because the next day they will be drafted and sent to the meat grinder. This is what an Ukrainian refugee from this region told me. When somebody tells you these things about his brother left behind, you feel more emotional than when reading it from an article. And you know it's not a fake.

This is a strange if not irrational fear. Out of the two sides, Ukraine is the one grabbing people off the streets as part of a forced mobilization effort. Russia conducted one wave of mobilization in 2022, and hasn't done so since. Russia does have a draft, but conscripts don't get sent into the proverbial meatgrinder. They serve outside the SMO zone in Russia. They could end up involved in a border skirmish like the recent events in Belgorod, but it's not particularly likely. To claim that Russia will taken men in occupied zones and send them into the grinder the next day is delusional. Even in LDNR areas where the mobilization happened sooner, the mobilization is over as far as I know. What region are we talking about here?

vikingatespam · Mar 17, 2024

Feanor said:
This is a strange if not irrational fear. Out of the two sides, Ukraine is the one grabbing people off the streets as part of a forced mobilization effort. Russia conducted one wave of mobilization in 2022, and hasn't done so since. Russia does have a draft, but conscripts don't get sent into the proverbial meatgrinder. They serve outside the SMO zone in Russia. They could end up involved in a border skirmish like the recent events in Belgorod, but it's not particularly likely. To claim that Russia will taken men in occupied zones and send them into the grinder the next day is delusional. Even in LDNR areas where the mobilization happened sooner, the mobilization is over as far as I know. What region are we talking about here?

There is historical precedent for using military aged males in captured territory as new levies. RU did this in WW2. Given how ruthlessly the LPR and DPR have been stripped of eligible males, I have zero doubts the RU would hesitate to take newly minted "Russians" into the armed forces. After all, you kill 2 birds with one stone - getting rid of potential UKR partisans, and if they comply, they might kill other UKR. Dont forget the intense pressure RU has exerted for "former" UKR to take a RU passport - there is a reason for that.

It is widely claimed that RU has been engaging in a shadow mobilization for some time.

Could all this be UKR propaganda ? Maybe. Does it fit the pattern of RU behavior ? Yes.

Fredled · Mar 17, 2024

@Feanor It's not irrational fear, it's what happened to his brother. He said that it's systematic. And that he escaped on time with his parents. He has no information about his brother's whereabouts since he reached Europe. We (not me in particular, but people in general) often meet with Ukrainian refugees here who told us about their reality. But it's rare to meet someone who came from the occupied territories. He came from the Melitopol region.
Of course the fear to sent to the front line is real on both sides. I know a man who adopted the son of his girlfriend so that Ukraine couldn't call him up. They are both staunchly against Putin and pro-Ukrainian. But they will never let their son go to die. Life is more important.

seaspear · Mar 18, 2024

A study linked with Russia's defence ministry suggests very high increases of males of combat age now receiving benefits from their injuries in the Ukraine war

Number of men with disabilities soars in Russia

The average daily number of Russian casualties has increased since the start of the war, reaching a peak of 983 per day.

tvpworld.com

Feanor · Mar 18, 2024

Posts moved to Russia - General Discussion thread.

seaspear · Mar 19, 2024

@ Feanor
Is it possible that many of the males now on disability benefits have been able to bribe/persuade doctors to register them as such because half a million in such a short span of time because of war injuries is far worse than what America recorded in Vietnam

Vietnam War Facts, Stats and Myths

The memory of the Vietnam War is studded with occasional misinformation and errors. This list of Vietnam War Facts, and statistics helps set things right.

www.uswings.com

Feanor · Mar 19, 2024

seaspear said:
@ Feanor
Is it possible that many of the males now on disability benefits have been able to bribe/persuade doctors to register them as such because half a million in such a short span of time because of war injuries is far worse than what America recorded in Vietnam

Vietnam War Facts, Stats and Myths

The memory of the Vietnam War is studded with occasional misinformation and errors. This list of Vietnam War Facts, and statistics helps set things right.

www.uswings.com

Possible? Sure. This is also a war of landmines. And with CASEVAC being relatively rapid, often faster then before, as well as gains in medicine, it's possible people who are ending up disabled, would have been dead before.

seaspear · Mar 20, 2024

It is very unlikely the scale of injuries would reach the levels of W.W.2 but it might be fair to revisit what happened back then for Soviet casualties

What happened to disabled WWII vets in the USSR?

The USSR had organized special sanatoriums for people left disabled after the war. Conditions there were not as appalling as the rumors claimed....

www.rbth.com

you would have to hope there is a more humane treatment and care now

Feanor · Mar 20, 2024

seaspear said:
It is very unlikely the scale of injuries would reach the levels of W.W.2 but it might be fair to revisit what happened back then for Soviet casualties

What happened to disabled WWII vets in the USSR?

The USSR had organized special sanatoriums for people left disabled after the war. Conditions there were not as appalling as the rumors claimed....

www.rbth.com

you would have to hope there is a more humane treatment and care now

One thing that's often forgotten is that for most of its history the USSR was a relatively poor country. Often it was more humane then modern day Russia, but resources were distinctly lacking. In general disabled WWII veterans were a feature of life and were visible in the streets and town long after the war. Even I still caught sight of some, despite growing up decades after that war. On the flip side Afghan and Chechen war vets were often begging in the underground street crossings. No sanatoriums for them. It will be interesting to see where disabled veterans from the current war end up.

seaspear · Mar 20, 2024

There are allegations that wounded and disabled Russians are being sent back to the front line

Russia Forming Assault Units with Disabled Soldiers, Relatives Outraged

The wife of one severely injured soldier said the Kremlin has one goal for such units – “to finish off the unfinished ones.” Doctors have also confirmed the practice.

www.kyivpost.com

Feanor · Mar 20, 2024

seaspear said:
There are allegations that wounded and disabled Russians are being sent back to the front line

Russia Forming Assault Units with Disabled Soldiers, Relatives Outraged

The wife of one severely injured soldier said the Kremlin has one goal for such units – “to finish off the unfinished ones.” Doctors have also confirmed the practice.

www.kyivpost.com

It seems an implausible claim. It talks about conscripts on the front lines, again. It offers very few particulars. I would not be surprised in the slightest on there being pressure on doctors to find people ready for service. But forming assault units from disabled personnel? Seems a bit of an exaggeration. It probably doesn't help that the article is from the Kiev Post.

EDIT: I'm assuming this will hold no cultural relevance for anyone here, but it made me think of the Belomors song Battle Prosthetics.

KipPotapych · Mar 20, 2024

seaspear said:
There are allegations that wounded and disabled Russians are being sent back to the front line

Russia Forming Assault Units with Disabled Soldiers, Relatives Outraged

The wife of one severely injured soldier said the Kremlin has one goal for such units – “to finish off the unfinished ones.” Doctors have also confirmed the practice.

www.kyivpost.com

While I think that Kiev Post is probably the best Ukrainian news outlet, everything should be taken with a high degree of caution. In this case in particular, the first citation (Important Stories Media) leads to some very questionable outlet (that I never heard of before) citing Ukrainian media for their news stories, the second leads to some Kiev Post page of no particular importance that has nothing to do with the article, and the last leads to a page that doesn’t exist and some questionable outlet.

Imagine one-legged and one-armed men assaulting the trenches?! By one-legged/armed men I mean someone who has limited function of at least one of their extremities.

Edit: completely unrelated, but an interesting bit I saw today, Ukrainians destroying two Russian BREMs trying to pull a Leopard 2A5 away from the battlefield:

КіберБорошно | CyberBoroshno

Оператори РУБпАК 12-ої бригади «Азов» уразили 2 кацапські ремонтно-евакуаційні машини (БРЕМ), які намагалися вивезти з поля бою український Leopard 2А5 (шведський варіант Strv 122). Локація: на схід від Тернів, Донецька обл Дрони Rusoriz 14195, 14210, 14189 Джерело 1, Джерело 2, Джерело 3...

t.me

Feanor · Mar 20, 2024

KipPotapych said:
While I think that Kiev Post is probably the best Ukrainian news outlet, everything should be taken with a high degree of caution. In this case in particular, the first citation (Important Stories Media) leads to some very questionable outlet (that I never heard of before) citing Ukrainian media for their news stories, the second leads to some Kiev Post page of no particular importance that has nothing to do with the article, and the last leads to a page that doesn’t exist and some questionable outlet.

Imagine one-legged and one-armed men assaulting the trenches?! By one-legged/armed men I mean someone who has limited function of at least one of their extremities.

Perhaps they could be equipped with titanium hooks strong enough to punch through the armor of a BTR. Ok I'll stop.

seaspear · Mar 20, 2024

There is this article from the Ukraine on such amputees returning to the frontline

Ukrainian amputee soldiers vow to return to battlefield

One soldier tells Sky News: "There is not a single day, not a single minute that I regret volunteering to serve. Yes, it was dangerous, but I will never regret my decision." For him, his country is like his family, and he wants to join the fighting forces as soon as he can.

news.sky.com

this article relates to Russia

Desperate Putin sending amputees into combat as Russia makes hollow NATO claim

Wounded fighters from Russia's prisoner unit Shtorm-Z are being sent back to the war, with some amputees also being forced to return, according to the MoD.

www.express.co.uk

KipPotapych · Mar 21, 2024

seaspear said:
There is this article from the Ukraine on such amputees returning to the frontline

Ukrainian amputee soldiers vow to return to battlefield

One soldier tells Sky News: "There is not a single day, not a single minute that I regret volunteering to serve. Yes, it was dangerous, but I will never regret my decision." For him, his country is like his family, and he wants to join the fighting forces as soon as he can.

news.sky.com

this article relates to Russia

Desperate Putin sending amputees into combat as Russia makes hollow NATO claim

Wounded fighters from Russia's prisoner unit Shtorm-Z are being sent back to the war, with some amputees also being forced to return, according to the MoD.

www.express.co.uk

The authors of the second article would be banned from this forum due to the lack of references. They don’t provide a single link to the info they are reporting (even when citing other media outlets). Also, it is British MoD and saying “highly likely”.

I wonder how they came up with the 60% of Ukrainian amputees going back to the frontline, as the first article suggests. The man they interviewed said he can’t wait to be back to fight, his wife mentioned God needing him to go to war, etc. I wouldn’t assume it to be a “normality” that occurs regularly. I would also be interested to see what the percentage that clinic indicates now because the article is over a year old and those they are talking about are probably the (then) remaining most patriotic troops. Also note that the man they interviewed was 50 years old to begin with who (maybe?) went back to fight with only one fully functioning foot. Talk about quality of the forces.

Here are a couple of recent articles from the Ukrainian media space that are related to the subject of sending handicapped to the frontline. First, I should mention that there are 3 “groups” of disabilities in Ukraine (and Russia). Very generally and broadly speaking, the first are disabled who basically cannot support themselves and require assistance; the second are those who cannot work, but do not necessarily require assistance; the third is someone who can work, doesn’t need assistance, but may need some special reservations, etc (pretty much all other disabled that do not fit into group one or two). Here is the first article, titled “Mobilization in Ukriane for the disabled of the third group, who can be sent to front” (Google translate):

Мобілізація в Україні для інвалідів III групи: кого можуть відправити на фронт

Верховна Рада 25 грудня внесла на розгляд законопроект, згідно з яким інвалідність 3 групи не є причиною для відстрочки.

www.unian.ua

The basic idea is that the third group is to be eliminated altogether as far as mobilization is concerned. Currently, these people are accepted to service on voluntary basis (same is true for group 1 (?) and 2). There is also a short list of the examples of the disabilities that would fit into this group (missing a lung, blind in one eye, deaf in both ears, paralyzed in the upper or lower extremity, missing four fingers beside a thumb, artificial heart valve (or pacer), absence of one kidney with pathology of the second, significant defect of skull bones, foreign object in the brain (due to trauma), etc).

The same source as above also talks about the other people with disabilities, but for variety, I will provide another:

Коли можна мобілізувати інвалідів II і III груп: у Нацгвардії озвучили відповідь

У Нацгвардії пояснили, за яких умов можуть призвати в армію в Україні під час мобілізації громадян з інвалідністю II і III груп і навіщо потрібна повторна медична перевірка

apostrophe.ua

It actually talks about the mobilization of disabled individuals who fall either into the second or third groups being justified and they will be required to go another go at the medical review that will determine wither they are fit or unfit for service. They also mention that when these people are mobilized, it doesn’t automatically mean they would be sent to the front, but they could be instructors (how weird is that?), build fortifications, etc. Furthermore, those individuals who have a spouse with disability 1 or 2 and dependent on them, could also be mobilized if there are other people who can take care of the said spouse.

The above is based on facts rather than some unsubstantiated claims. I haven’t seen anything even remotely similar for the Russian side (even the allegations of the British MoD and media reports do not come close). There was a report recently citing one of the Ukrainian generals (I think it was a general, but maybe some government higher up official) answering a question in regard to disabilities and who is suitable for service, saying something along the lines of “if a disabled can be strapped with a grenade, he is suitable for service”. I wish I could remember the guy’s name so I could provide a citation, but I do not (so take it as it didn’t happen).

Overall, from what one would consider to be some crazy stuff reported about the Russians, my observation is that it is more often than not 100% applicable to Ukraine, while claims about Russia remain rather questionable.

I was also wondering in the past while… Let’s say they finally proceed and pass the mobilization law in Ukraine and decide to mobilize under or half a million people. How are they going to materialize it? The past month or two what I noticed is a significant increase in the forced mobilization videos. If before there would be one or two every few days or so, now there are several each day. It doesn’t look like a good trend. Of course, in order to mobilize this many men, they need the stuff to equip them with, which likely isn’t readily available.

On an unrelated note, another thing I noticed in the past while (or maybe recently) is a significant increase of videos of the Russians dropping gliding bombs with cluster munitions. It used to be a rarity, at least as far as documented evidence is concerned that I saw.

Fredled · Mar 21, 2024

seaspear said:
There are allegations that wounded and disabled Russians are being sent back to the front line

Russia Forming Assault Units with Disabled Soldiers, Relatives Outraged

The wife of one severely injured soldier said the Kremlin has one goal for such units – “to finish off the unfinished ones.” Doctors have also confirmed the practice.

www.kyivpost.com

Disabled no. But seriously wounded who have recovered, yes. People who have been injured so bad that they stayed on a hospital bed for more than a week. People with disabilities which would make them unfit in western armies, yes. Examples I have heard from a witness: A soldier who don't hear form one ear (very common in war time because of gun sound and shell blasts), whose one eye doesn't see well (and even in one case, one eye completely blind), two fingers missing (he was told that he can still pull the trigger with the remaining fingers).
It's a clear sign that Russia too have issues recruiting.

Fredled · Mar 21, 2024

Ukraine hit the Engels Air base again
But no more info since (Reuters link). They probably missed any significant target. But nice try.

Feanor · Mar 21, 2024

I will try to make an update post today or tomorrow. Russia has gained some ground over the past few days, taking all of Orlovka and Tonen'koe, and gaining ground in Berdychy. Russia was rapidly advancing west of Avdeevka, after the initial reserves arrived they were able to halt Russia's advance and even push Russia back somewhat. It now appears the reserves were chewed up in a month of heavy fighting and Russia has resumed the advance in this area. Note we've seen units riding M1 Abrams show up, as well riding Marders, so the previously unseen vehicles (for Marders at least in this area) are our confirmation that reserves were committed to the fight as reported. Elsewhere Russia continues to creep forward, running into some troubles inside Krasnogorovka, where a Ukrainian counter-attack reversed some Russian gains, reducing the foothold Russia has in the town. With the fall of Nevel'skoe north of Krasnogorovka, there is the potential for attempting an envelopment, but it would take some time and the terrain isn't great.

vikingatespam · Mar 21, 2024

Fredled said:
Ukraine hit the Engels Air base again
But no more info since (Reuters link). They probably missed any significant target. But nice try.

No apparent damage from satellite pics.

Feanor · Mar 22, 2024

Update.

Oskol front.

Russian forces have captured a Ukrainian strong point north of the Tabaevka salient. The terrain there is unfavorable to Russia, so further advances if they happen are going to be slow.

The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

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