They probably have - but as with everything else in Russia, laws are trumped by disposable cash.
Basically they're bleeding out the job-mobile with spare cash in huge quantities. That's a segment of the population no country wants to lose.
The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread
- Thread starter Feanor
- Start date
Basically they're bleeding out the job-mobile with spare cash in huge quantities. That's a segment of the population no country wants to lose.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #5,262
Cruise missiles can be shot down from the air, and AEW can be kept on station 24/7 to provide warning, in theory. But this is an effort better suited to the likes of the US and NATO then of Ukraine. Of course Russia could try to fight Ukrainian aircraft in the sky, try to keep an eye on where they take off and land from, and use their own AEW to figure out where the Ukrainian fighters are coming from. But that would take quite a bit of planning and coordination. I suspect there is a future where these attacks can be significantly curtailed but at no small cost. The real question might be whether dealing with these strikes is the best use of resources in this war.
EDIT: Well here's another plausible reason for the strikes. Ukraine will stop exporting electricty to the EU as of Oct 11th. If the intent is to deepend the European energy crisis while providing a painful respones to the bridge attack, this checks those boxes.
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It comes down to choosing which areas to defend against missile attacks; places like Kiev and Odessa or specific infrastructure comes to mind. Just like how the Ukrainians will have to make do with what HIMARs and other things they're given and to decide where to place them.
The comparison's a bit off but this reminds me of the Baedeker raids; intended for their psychological effects and to hit certain strategic targets but in reality it was something the Germans couldn't sustain at a time when the war was already lost.
Ultimately the Germans lost. Russia is several weakened but not defeated yet. It may have failed to achieve its objectives but the Ukrainians are not out of the woods yet. To have any real long term bearing on things the Russians will have to maintain these strikes; as well as finding other ways to hurt their enemy - remains to be seen.
Ultimately the Germans lost. Russia is several weakened but not defeated yet. It may have failed to achieve its objectives but the Ukrainians are not out of the woods yet. To have any real long term bearing on things the Russians will have to maintain these strikes; as well as finding other ways to hurt their enemy - remains to be seen.
2007yellow430
Active Member
Just saw pictures of destroyed buildings and dead bodies in Kiev. (Washington Post pics) Awful. Perhaps it’s time to do the same to Moscow?
Art
Art
vikingatespam
Well-Known Member
Careless escalation will make things worse. Lets be honest, RU has been killing UKR civilians just about every day of this miserable war. if RU keep this up, then the west starts putting ATACMS and Tomahawks on the table. F16 and other western gear.
This day of missile attacks might be for RU domestic audiences to show a response. If this doesnt keep happening day after day, then I suspect RU has taken its revenge and they can get back to a losing conventional war.
vikingatespam
Well-Known Member
It appears that there is no overall command that determines where the scarce resources of missile/drones is used, and in what manner.
Part 2 of 5: The clock is ticking
4. Maj (retired) Mika Tyry of the Finnish Defence Forces said the explosion likely happened on the bridge deck, with "little air between the explosives and the deck. For example, exactly the height of the truck." I hope the Russians spend more money repairing the bridge, that may have been hit by a truck delivered explosion, with 1,000 to 2,000kg of explosives that may have included thermite. We need to keep in mind:
5. The Chinese architectural community seems to have some ideas of how to build back better.
6. The Kerch Bridge fits the definition of dual use infrastructure — used to facilitate Russian logistics and to transfer Russian troops and military equipment. While Ukraine is under some obligation to limit the number of civilians killed or injured, but that obligation was met when the bridge was attacked under conditions of light civilian traffic.
8. The Russia military have spent the last 24 hours purposefully striking many Ukrainians civilian targets (84+), when Moscow has not presented any evidence that the Kerch Bridge explosion was not a false flag attack by their security forces. Meanwhile, Russian officials continue to state publicly that they are still pursuing regime change in Ukraine and other maximalist objectives.
9. According to Russian "law", Ukraine is an "occupier" as it stays on territories which Russia has invaded and declared as Russian. Incredible surreality, typically Russian. They occupy parts of a country and declare Ukraine an occupier. War is peace, and the victim is perpetrator under Russian law. Just for giggles, let me ask you the same type of questions, you ask me. @Feanor, just try to answer my 3 questions:
4. Maj (retired) Mika Tyry of the Finnish Defence Forces said the explosion likely happened on the bridge deck, with "little air between the explosives and the deck. For example, exactly the height of the truck." I hope the Russians spend more money repairing the bridge, that may have been hit by a truck delivered explosion, with 1,000 to 2,000kg of explosives that may have included thermite. We need to keep in mind:
Putin: If Ukraine touches my Crimean Bridge I will go nuclear.
Ukraine is suspected of bringing down the Crimean Bridge.
Putin: This looks like terrorism, I will install a commission to investigate it.
5. The Chinese architectural community seems to have some ideas of how to build back better.
6. The Kerch Bridge fits the definition of dual use infrastructure — used to facilitate Russian logistics and to transfer Russian troops and military equipment. While Ukraine is under some obligation to limit the number of civilians killed or injured, but that obligation was met when the bridge was attacked under conditions of light civilian traffic.
7. Good joke — I am merely pointing out that NATO will react to the pipeline attacks and the gloves will come off (nothing more, nothing less). You are asking for proof of a negative — whereas I am talking about NATO reaction.
8. The Russia military have spent the last 24 hours purposefully striking many Ukrainians civilian targets (84+), when Moscow has not presented any evidence that the Kerch Bridge explosion was not a false flag attack by their security forces. Meanwhile, Russian officials continue to state publicly that they are still pursuing regime change in Ukraine and other maximalist objectives.
9. According to Russian "law", Ukraine is an "occupier" as it stays on territories which Russia has invaded and declared as Russian. Incredible surreality, typically Russian. They occupy parts of a country and declare Ukraine an occupier. War is peace, and the victim is perpetrator under Russian law. Just for giggles, let me ask you the same type of questions, you ask me. @Feanor, just try to answer my 3 questions:
Q1: Is there any evidence that the Russians did not bomb the Kerch Bridge themselves, to persuade Russian speakers to evaluate Crimea — as the war is being slowly lost by Moscow?
(and Putin did install a commission to investigate the bombing as terrorism)
Q2: Why is Russia blaming Ukraine for a bombing, when it was a truck driven from the Russian side?
(and there is evidence of possible Russian forgery to blame an Ukrainian)
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Part 3 of 5: The clock is ticking
10. IMO, the Russian military are not just aiming at just "critical energy infrastructure" or "military targets," which, in an area like Ukraine would require literally hundreds of ADA systems to defend against.
11. After the Bucha massacre, the criminal armed forces of Russia have graduated to mostly striking random civilian targets (including a playground and also missing a foot bridge of zero military value), all over the country. Putin and his morally bankrupt military leadership are committing war crimes, in Ukraine.
Q3: Do you have any proof that the civilian building (where the German consulate is), that was by hit a Russian missile attack was hiding Ukrainian weapons?
(and Feanor did claim that Russia is attacking military targets, so I also expect a list of 42 specific targets of military value, given 84+ missiles/bombs)
10. IMO, the Russian military are not just aiming at just "critical energy infrastructure" or "military targets," which, in an area like Ukraine would require literally hundreds of ADA systems to defend against.
11. After the Bucha massacre, the criminal armed forces of Russia have graduated to mostly striking random civilian targets (including a playground and also missing a foot bridge of zero military value), all over the country. Putin and his morally bankrupt military leadership are committing war crimes, in Ukraine.
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- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #5,271
No, I'm not asking proof of a negative. I'm not asking you to prove that the west did not attack the pipelines. There is a difference between certainty and uncertainty. The world does not exist in black and white. It is possible to not know whether Russia, the US, or someone else committed the attacks. To claim positively one did it, evidence is required. Your statement was framed in a way that led me to believe you were positively claiming Russia is the culprit. If that is not the case, please let me know and I'm sorry for misinterpreting. However I'd like to get it out in the open. Are you saying Russia committed the pipeline attacks? Or are you saying merely that NATO is reacting as if Russia has committed attacks whether Russia has in fact done so or not?
It is certainly possible in principle that the bridge attack is a false flag by Russian security forces. However, the damage caused is fairly severe so it would imply internal dissent between the towers of the Kremlin to the point of being willing to actually sabotage critical infrastructure at a sensitive time. If this were the case I expect we would see other signs of this. In my opinion it's much worse for Russia if the attack was carried out internally. It implies problems with government stability on a very fundamental level.
When you say "the Russians" who do you mean exactly? As of right now there is no evidence of who is behind the attack. We have a pretty clear picture of what took place but not who is responsible. So the short answer to your very vague question is a definite no.
What do you mean why? Who else would they blame? Space aliens? Cloud people? Russia is at war with Ukraine. Russia will blame Ukraine for this attack pretty much regardless of what actually took place.
Not only do I not have evidence, I didn't even know the consulate was hit. What I wrote was based on the information available to me and I explicitly stated that the information is incomplete. Additional information is welcome. However there are several possibilities. We saw what appeared to be at least one SAM in Kiev fail and hit the ground. Ukrainian SAMs have hit Ukrainian buildings before, it's one of the problems with using old Soviet SAMs in dense urban areas against relatively complex targets. The consulate could have been hit 1) by Russia intentionally as a political message 2) by Russian accidentally (a Russian missile failed or a mistake was made when selecting targets 3) by Ukraine accidentally intercepting a Russian missile in a way that hit the building 4) by Ukraine accidentally, a Ukrainian SAM failing and hitting the building. Without more information on the nature of the damage, and possibly pieces of the munition involved, it's hard to say anything for sure. I'll stand by on further information.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #5,272
More Russian strikes across Ukraine. Overall it seems like a winding down after the strikes from the past 1-2 days, however it's unclear if this is the end or if another wave is planned. To get the full effect of this, i.e. to really cripple the Ukrainian power grid, Russia would need to continue these strikes for weeks, not days. As is they're likely demoralizing, and certainly hurt Ukrainian industry and transport but they won't have any significant effect on the situation on the front lines.
Allegedly 15 impacts in Zaporozhye.
In Vinnitsa the Ladyzhniskaya power plant got hit, reportedly two Shahed-136s.
t.me
Russian strikes in L'vov. Unclear if it's more footage of the same series or additional strikes. The target is allegedly a power grid substation.
vk.com
t.me
Power is out in L'vov.
In Nikolaev an S-300 missile segment fell on a house.
t.me
In Kherson there are reports of Ukrainian strikes, and Russian air defenses firing.
vk.com
Moldavia claims 3 of the cruise missiles Russia fired entered their airspace. Unclear if true, but certainly possible, considering the route from the Black Sea to L'vov. A particularly plausible variant is that they flew over Transnestria, possibly low to the water, to avoid detection.
vk.com
Allegedly 15 impacts in Zaporozhye.
In Vinnitsa the Ladyzhniskaya power plant got hit, reportedly two Shahed-136s.
Colonelcassad
"Адский мопед" идет к своей цели в Винницкой области. Утром 2 "Герани-2" расцвели на Ладыжинской ТЭС.
t.me
Russian strikes in L'vov. Unclear if it's more footage of the same series or additional strikes. The target is allegedly a power grid substation.
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Военкор Котенок
В сети продолжают появляться бодрые кадры прилётов по объектам энергетической инфраструктуры Украины. На видео — попадание по электроподстанции во Львове. @voenkorKotenok
t.me
Power is out in L'vov.
In Nikolaev an S-300 missile segment fell on a house.
ZERGULIO
Хохлы, это старая гнилая ракета от вашей собственной С-300, которую вы спрятали в жилой застройке. Другой украинской пропаганды у меня для вас нет (с)
t.me
In Kherson there are reports of Ukrainian strikes, and Russian air defenses firing.
VK.com | VK
vk.com
Moldavia claims 3 of the cruise missiles Russia fired entered their airspace. Unclear if true, but certainly possible, considering the route from the Black Sea to L'vov. A particularly plausible variant is that they flew over Transnestria, possibly low to the water, to avoid detection.
VK.com | VK
vk.com
Ananda
The Bunker Group
I watch Western and Ukraine Median Shown Russia killing civilians and destroying Civilians target. I also watch RT and Russian telegram shown Ethnic Russian civilians being targeted by Ukranian shelling in Donentsk, Kherson and other area under Russian control.
So sadly I do not see really matter anymore whose Civilians being killed at this stage. It all depends on whose target audience. Western and Ukranian media shown Russian committed war crime by killing Ukranian civilians. Russian and Pro Russian media shown otherwise. The rest of the world that sitting in the fence see 'both' sides civilians being killed.
So who makes war crimes really depends on whose audience perspectives. Also what the result of this war. Winner will determine whose doing War Crimes and put it on trials as ussual. While if this resulted on stand still, well it does not matter whose doing war crimes, as nobody can put any sides in trials.
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I can guarantee you it matters to the people on the receiving end of it.
Can you link to an independent source which reports widespread deliberate targeting of civilians by Ukrainian forces?
I think comparing Russian and Ukrainian treatment of civilians is a horrendous false equivalence. But if you have evidence I’ll gladly see it.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Can you link independent source (independent in here means non Collective Western and non Ukrainian) that shown Russian deliberately targeting civilian ?
Like I say it depends on target audience. Western media and public can say whatever on Russian war crime, as Russian media can say whatever on Ukraine war crime. Doesn't matter on this stage. Especially if the war results on stand still.
It is only matter if you win or if you can subdued your opposition. Asside of that each target audience have their own perspective.
Presumably Qatar is east enough for you?
Ukraine war crimes investigation receives support of 45 nations..
EDIT: Apologies mods for the one sentence post. But this was a simple question so I have given a simple answer.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Whose accusations those media source from ? Is those media conducting their own investigation ? As support for Russian investigation, does that make all of them change their position on Russia ?
Yes target audience. You can claim Indian or other Asians as target audience. As most of their position are in the fence. The important thing, are they Changing their position to jump on collective west band wagon of isolating Russia ?
If not then perhaps They're still target audience from either Russian or Western media to sway. However the most important target media for Russian media is their own audiences.
Again unless you win, unless the West can destroy and subdued Russian and force them to capitulate, then it is not matter on Western accusations of War Crime. Similar thing happen on the other side of war crime accusations done by Ukrainian that Russian blasted.
Yes target audience. You can claim Indian or other Asians as target audience. As most of their position are in the fence. The important thing, are they Changing their position to jump on collective west band wagon of isolating Russia ?
If not then perhaps They're still target audience from either Russian or Western media to sway. However the most important target media for Russian media is their own audiences.
Again unless you win, unless the West can destroy and subdued Russian and force them to capitulate, then it is not matter on Western accusations of War Crime. Similar thing happen on the other side of war crime accusations done by Ukrainian that Russian blasted.
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It’s not the same thing at all. There are innumerable stories from free media in countries that are at best neutral toward Russia repeatedly claiming that Russia has committed gross war crimes. They have a huge incentive to uncover a conspiracy amongst all Western media outlets to fabricate Russian crimes and/or cover up Ukrainian crimes (it would be the story of the century) but they haven’t done so.
How are you going with providing that independent evidence of widespread Ukrainian war crimes again?
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Waduh, Ukraina Dituduh Lakukan Kejahatan Perang, Amnesty International: Membahayakan Warga Sipil
Amnesty International menuduh Ukraina telah melakukan kejahatan perang dalam konflik militer dengan Rusia.
www.kompas.tv
This is Indonesian media that talking on Amnesty International accusations on Ukrainian side harming civilian. Perhaps (the amnesty international) so far the strongest any non Russian accusations toward Ukrainian.
Seems you don't get on my point. The claim on Russian war crimes coming from Western and Ukrainian sources. Same thing from Ukranian war crime coming from Russian sources. Thus mostly no independent sources for each sides accusations.
However it doesn't matter if the war coming to stand still as each sides can't put the perpetrator they're accusing on trials. It is only matter if your side win.
Ukrainian only put trials those Russian soldiers they have capture, so does the Russian on Ukrainian soldiers. It is matter only if you are win the war. That's when you can actually execute your war crime accusations. Simple as that.
So, the Indonesian media that I put above also talk on Russian war crime. Doesn't change anything on Indonesian position. Similar thing with Indian media, Qatari etc. What media wrote not entirely reflect the audiences position, let alone their government. It just shown like many 'neutral' media, they are taking any stories from any sides, as long as it sells.
That's what I say any war crime accusations from any sides, doesn't matter. It is only matter if your side win the war and capitulate the other side. That's the fact through out human history. Most War Crime especially the big ones only done by the losser.
Showing non western media posting of Russian war crimes 'quoting' mostly Western sources, clearly not showings that as non western or independent opinion.
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