The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[froggb]

maybe in 10-15 years the spanish navy could be equal or even more powerful than the R.N. .

How embaressing, I think it might be time to either A) sign my war canoe into active service B) Become a Gozillionaire and buy and equip my self a Navy or C) Send some emails to a few politicans, and hope they act in some way (hopefully not on Stage).

On a slightly more serious note, I would imagine that the Royal Navy will be getting the 2 new aircraft carriers, although i'dd imagine they will announce the ordered post scottish elections, as a reward for voting labour.

FrogGB

 

[Gladius]

Returning to the threat intention.

AFAIK, the cuts over the Royal Navy budget are derived mostly by the huge cost of the currently actives overseas operations (Irak, Afghanistan, etc...) that suffocate the budgets. While those continue, the cuts will continue. The question is that the Royal Navy has been presented with the need to renew at the same time the majority of their naval chapter, that is, has been forced in the enormous investments dedicated to the CVF Program, her part in the JSF Program, the renovation need of its nuclear submarines, the replacement of the entire fleet of her surface ships dedicated to the air defense of zone (Type 42 with Sea Dart), plus the operational costs, etc... and clearly all in a moment where the budgets for defense are reduced, and have a brutal leak of money due to the operations of the war against the terror.

Without entering the political aspects of the British intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan, the matter is not so much if the Labor Government want to reduce the RN to the minimal expression, but if that is a forced measure taken because simply there is not money enough in the budget for all.

Sadly is a theme without a fast or easy solution. Many countries were presented with this problem in the past and they opted for different solutions. The problem gentlemen is that if the budgets are not expanded, and the level of expense in the overseas interventions is maintained, the situation will continue getting worse, with more and more cuts.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

No offence, guys, but if you want to talk about the Spanish Navy can you do it somewhere else please? I'd like to keep the conversation on the RN - cheers.

Off topic posts have been moved to the Spanish Navy thread.

Stick to the RN topic.

Thanks

 

[Big-E]

How embaressing, I think it might be time to either A) sign my war canoe into active service B) Become a Gozillionaire and buy and equip my self a Navy or C) Send some emails to a few politicans, and hope they act in some way (hopefully not on Stage).

On a slightly more serious note, I would imagine that the Royal Navy will be getting the 2 new aircraft carriers, although i'dd imagine they will announce the ordered post scottish elections, as a reward for voting labour.

FrogGB

I have a 40ft cabin cruiser we can mount a Browning .50 MG on. Although it might be better to reinstate HMS Victory to active service.

The RNs aircraft carriers and SSBNs are killing the surface fleet. Maybe the CVF project is a little too ambitious. It might be time to scale it down to cost.

 

[Tasman]

The RNs aircraft carriers and SSBNs are killing the surface fleet. Maybe the CVF project is a little too ambitious. It might be time to scale it down to cost.

What would be the implications of a design change at this stage of the project and how much could the CVF be scaled down and still provide a credible airgroup to do the job asked of it?

I presume there would be significant delays. I would certainly prefer to see two smaller units than a reduction to one of the present design. As stated earlier I think one carrier would be the very worst outcome. I suppose that at the very least a new design ought to at least match the 'Invincibles' in capability.

I think the RN needs two 'QEs' built to the existing plan but if budget problems make it impossible to maintain the surface fleet and SSN force at acceptable levels then regrettably a scaled down design might be needed.

Cheers

 

[Big-E]

What would be the implications of a design change at this stage of the project and how much could the CVF be scaled down and still provide a credible airgroup to do the job asked of it?

I presume there would be significant delays. I would certainly prefer to see two smaller units than a reduction to one of the present design. As stated earlier I think one carrier would be the very worst outcome. I suppose that at the very least a new design ought to at least match the 'Invincibles' in capability.

I think the RN needs two 'QEs' built to the existing plan but if budget problems make it impossible to maintain the surface fleet and SSN force at acceptable levels then regrettably a scaled down design might be needed.

Cheers

I think the CVF is apperently too much for the budget to take. You can't strip capabilities from your surface fleet just so you can have some nice big ticket items. Unless parliament is going to give the RN more funds they need to come up with a more balanced approach. I'm thinking a Cavour type vessle converted to strictly air tasking would serve rather well. If you give it an angled flight deck and catapults she can run any naval aircraft you want on it. The air wing could hold 24 F-35, 6 helicopters and 2-3 E-2D Hawkeyes running CATOBAR ops. It might be possible to purchase 3 such vessles. Construction can be completed in-house.

 

[Grand Danois]

Sticking my neck out: Tony B and Gordo will approve two 65,000 ton CVF in the first half of this year.

The funding is largely allocated. It is peripherals that is being haggled over right now.

If two Type 45's can be sold to Saudi Arabia it could provide some room in the budget until the operations in Iraq begin to wind down - the Treasury hasn't exactly reimbursed that op...

 

[stuuu28]

SSBN's

I know its a daft idea but i think the Nuclear Deterance should be paid for outwith the MOD budget as its purely a political weapons system?

Does anyone know what the RN thinks about being the holder of the Nuclear Deterence, does it consider it as a prestige thing or a white elephant, can't help thinking that the RN must be looking at the RAF with green eyes (232 Eurofighters!!!)

Also would the RAF take back the Deterence role if offered or would they be out with the barge pole

 

[Tasman]

I know its a daft idea but i think the Nuclear Deterance should be paid for outwith the MOD budget as its purely a political weapons system?

Does anyone know what the RN thinks about being the holder of the Nuclear Deterence, does it consider it as a prestige thing or a white elephant, can't help thinking that the RN must be looking at the RAF with green eyes (232 Eurofighters!!!)

Also would the RAF take back the Deterence role if offered or would they be out with the barge pole

I don't think its a daft idea at all.

My bet would be that the RAF would run a mile if they were asked to take back the nuclear deterent role. The air combat force would likely go the way of the RN's surface combat fleet to pay for it!

Taking the cost of the deterent away from the service charged with delivering it would be brilliant IMHO.

Cheers

:

 

[aprasadi]

I dont know why the heck all european navies specially RN are decresing thier size of navies. Wherein at present India and china are increasing their size of naval power. Though having such huge budget than india and china why RN and govt. are scrapping ships for cost cutting.
Even small counties with meger budgets are adding new ships in their navy. In any sort of eventuality or war i fear that european navies wont be able to stand alone....they will have to run to USA for help.

 

[froggb]

I don't think its a daft idea at all.

My bet would be that the RAF would run a mile if they were asked to take back the nuclear deterent role. The air combat force would likely go the way of the RN's surface combat fleet to pay for it!

Taking the cost of the deterent away from the service charged with delivering it would be brilliant IMHO.

Cheers

:

Slightly of Thread, but unless I read a fantasy book wasn't one of the jobs of the US Carrier Fleet to deliver 'Dumb' (Aka free fall) Nuclear bombs in time of war? Surely it should be possible for the UK especially considering the FAA/RAF are getting the F35 to carry a free fall nuclear bomb's in the bomb bay on those aircraft (unless i'm wrong about a bomb bay?)? Yet still that does put submarine design skills at risk in barrow.

I have a 40ft cabin cruiser we can mount a Browning .50 MG on. Although it might be better to reinstate HMS Victory to active service.

The RNs aircraft carriers and SSBNs are killing the surface fleet. Maybe the CVF project is a little too ambitious. It might be time to scale it down to cost.

I've heard of the mother daughter concept suggested on RichardB's website where a 'mother-ship' carriers a small force of smaller 'daughter-ships/boats' Do you think it'dd be possible for you to crane my war canoe on board or crane her on board HMS Victory on deployments?

 

[mark22w]

I know its a daft idea but i think the Nuclear Deterance should be paid for outwith the MOD budget as its purely a political weapons system?

Does anyone know what the RN thinks about being the holder of the Nuclear Deterence, does it consider it as a prestige thing or a white elephant, can't help thinking that the RN must be looking at the RAF with green eyes (232 Eurofighters!!!)

Also would the RAF take back the Deterence role if offered or would they be out with the barge pole

Not a daft idea at all... however can't see the RAF putting its hand up to taking back the nuclear role

If T45 hulls 5 & 6 go to Saudi what are the chances the RN ends up with four? Okay, let's not dwell on that but IMO there is a real question over escort numbers to support one CBG, an ARG plus a handful of single ship deployments...

I note the opposition party claims the cutbacks have been too severe. Can we have that in writing please before the next election?

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

I dont know why the heck all european navies specially RN are decresing thier size of navies. Wherein at present India and china are increasing their size of naval power.

1. Because Europe is generally a peaceful part of the world and there's no real "naval threat".

2. European politicians are generally short-sighted when it comes to military affairs and don't think about what will happen if they do need to make a naval deployment.

3. European countries are generally cheap-skates when it comes to military affairs, and prefer that someone else - i.e. the US - does all the work.

4. Some European navies are increasing their overall "punch", even if they don't have quite as many vessels. However the RN is a good example of a navy that is being run down for no good reason and generally getting weaker.

-------

By the way, Big-E, it is not Parliament that decides the budget - it's the Treasury. And the Treasury is refusing to give the MoD the money it needs. There is no real opposition in Parliament to spending more on Defence.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

I note the opposition party claims the cutbacks have been too severe. Can we have that in writing please before the next election?

I have actually written a very pointed letter to Liam Fox, asking him specifically what the Conservatives would do to change the situation and whether they would make a policy commitment to increase spending/production of new ships.

I also wrote a very angry one to Des Browne, just to see what kind of rubbish I would get in reply. I told him I thought his plans were "quite, quite mad".

 

[froggb]

I have actually written a very pointed letter to Liam Fox, asking him specifically what the Conservatives would do to change the situation and whether they would make a policy commitment to increase spending/production of new ships.

I also wrote a very angry one to Des Browne, just to see what kind of rubbish I would get in reply. I told him I thought his plans were "quite, quite mad".

Same here, bar the fact that I sent them an email to the a bunch of conservative and liberal democrat MP's, all i know is that a couple of MP's who i shant name, have asked for my address, so they can decide whether or not i'm in their county, and too say I always thought defence was a national issue (in the hands of central government), unlike health and education that are slightly more local issues (in the hands of local government). Recieved an email yesterday evening from Liam Fox's secretary saying she'dd past my email along to the shadow defence secretaries defence team.

FrogGB

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Recieved an email yesterday evening from Liam Fox's secretary saying she'dd past my email along to the shadow defence secretaries defence team.

Did she imply you would get some feedback, or that she was just "passing the info on"? If you do get a response, please let us know.

I would urge any British members of the forum to write in to Des Browne and Liam Fox, saying how the RN needs extra funding right now. It isn't likely to change much, but it certainly won't make things worse! Writing is usually better than e-mailing, as written letters have to be answered.

 

[froggb]

If you get a response, please let us know.

Will do, and if you get a response, it would be great if you could let us know.

 

[contedicavour]

Sticking my neck out: Tony B and Gordo will approve two 65,000 ton CVF in the first half of this year.

The funding is largely allocated. It is peripherals that is being haggled over right now.

If two Type 45's can be sold to Saudi Arabia it could provide some room in the budget until the operations in Iraq begin to wind down - the Treasury hasn't exactly reimbursed that op...

Well well 2 big carriers with 4 DDGs and 16 Seawolf equipped T22 and T23... provided other European countries help out with escort force it could still be feasible. Though new FFGs with very serious AAW are required well before 2020-2025.
These rumours on Saudi's acquisition of Type 45 seem to be a bit crazy, their navy is well enough with the modified Lafayette with aster 15. Rumours were mostly on LCS or FREMM.

cheers

 

[Grand Danois]

Ah yes. The Type 45 for Saudi Arabia is speculation.

I don't think I've said this earlier in this thread, but I prefer the RN concentrates on the big ticket items like CVF/SSN/SSBN. Only the larger navies have critical mass for these kind of assets.

Escorts are less difficult to add later when finances improve, and don't discount allied support. For instance the close amphibious coorporation with Holland. That would include DZP/NAAWS support from their four frigates for UK/Dutch amphib units.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Well well 2 big carriers with 4 DDGs and 16 Seawolf equipped T22 and T23... provided other European countries help out with escort force it could still be feasible. Though new FFGs with very serious AAW are required well before 2020-2025.
These rumours on Saudi's acquisition of Type 45 seem to be a bit crazy, their navy is well enough with the modified Lafayette with aster 15. Rumours were mostly on LCS or FREMM.

I still doubt that only 4 completed Darings will be built - I think it will end up with at least 6, though it may well be only 6 at first. Then again if one or two were sold to Saudi Arabia, it would give the government more time to order more at a later date whilst keeping the production line open. So provided that any sales to Riyadh were in addition to UK orders, and not designed to replace them, things should be ok on that front.

As to new FFGs, those will not arrive before 2020. The "Pathfinder Project" is set to report this year on the FSC (Future Surface Combatant), but in-service dates are still expected to be no earlier than the late 2010s. The T-23s will get a "full service" to keep them going until then - the T-22s will probably be sold or scrapped by then.