The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Except that Ajax is so heavily modified that it might have been easier to start from scratch. Or, of course, buy something close to what the British army wanted & just put in UK comms & a BV.
That's very much my point -it *should* have been a straight add-to-cart experience but. as you say, a bunch of requirements got added, to the point where, really, it was a bespoke item. Risk management appears to have been poor and I can think of other projects (cough:MRA4) that have underlined it.

Thing is, the DIP being unveiled apparently doesn't make much difference right now, as no-one is making any decisions til the new PM is selected - so really, Starmer hasn't done anyone any favours by producing the DIP during his last few months.

We'll see what stands or falls once we have a new PM.

If these changes do go through, I'm genuinely worried that there's an enormous amount of risk with unproven tech that makes Type 45 look pedestrian.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The MoD appears to be addicted to heavy & ill thought out customisation of what should be OTS buys, with appallingly bad risk management, e.g. the Chinook fiasco, where a "cost-cutting" customisation rendered the batch if was applied to unusable, & cost a bloody fortune. Project Cerberus is another one. Should have been a quick refurb of AEW kit from Sea Kings & fit to Merlins, so we had onboard AEW pending a long term solution which we could take our time over . . . and it turned into yet another immensely expensive long-drawn-out fiasco, with equipment pretty much obsolete by the time it entered service & retirement scheduled for a few years afterwards.

Management of maintenance is extraordinarily bad, too. How many ships have been refitted, only to be retired?
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
No more 3 + 3 MRSS (too expensive) and instead, 4 x 15k ton amphibous ships of unknown configuration (through deck LHA/LHD type or LPD style).

A 15k ton vessel would point towards a variant of the Enforcer series (Enforcer 15628) from Damen rather than the smaller MPSS for Portugal, although a new design is also a possibility. The original MRSS specs would have featured a robust self-defense capability if I recall.

Seems like a downgrade to me from a fleet size/# perspective from:
1 x HMS Ocean LHA
2 x Albion-class LPD
3 x Bay-class LPD
1 x RFA Argus

 
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swerve

Super Moderator
Ocean was decommissioned eight years ago & sold to Brazil.
Albion was out of service 2011-18, then "reduced readiness" until retired last year.
Bulwark was in "extended readiness" from 2017 to 2020, then in refit, until sold to Brazil in 2025.
Argus was worn out to the point she was officially"unsafe to sail".

Ocean's LPH role is now supposed to be covered by the aircraft carriers, each of which is the same tonnage as all three Invincible class carriers combined. That leaves the four new ships replacing the three Bay class LSDs, which are 16,000 tons each.

We've already had the downgrading of the amphibious fleet. This could be a slight upgrading of what's left.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
The MoD appears to be addicted to heavy & ill thought out customisation of what should be OTS buys, with appallingly bad risk management, e.g. the Chinook fiasco, where a "cost-cutting" customisation rendered the batch if was applied to unusable, & cost a bloody fortune. Project Cerberus is another one. Should have been a quick refurb of AEW kit from Sea Kings & fit to Merlins, so we had onboard AEW pending a long term solution which we could take our time over . . . and it turned into yet another immensely expensive long-drawn-out fiasco, with equipment pretty much obsolete by the time it entered service & retirement scheduled for a few years afterwards.

Management of maintenance is extraordinarily bad, too. How many ships have been refitted, only to be retired?
Oh lord! I'd forgotten about chinook! Literally, there's an end user with the same requirements already flying a viable solution but nooo, let's get ourselves some kit we can't get certified for VFR OPS in the UK then park them in a hangar for a decade. I actually passed on of them being moved on a low loader a long while back, presumably for their long awaited refit.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Oh lord! I'd forgotten about chinook! Literally, there's an end user with the same requirements already flying a viable solution but nooo, let's get ourselves some kit we can't get certified for VFR OPS in the UK then park them in a hangar for a decade. I actually passed on of them being moved on a low loader a long while back, presumably for their long awaited refit.
Didn't the Dutch buy pretty much what we required - working perfectly from the start?
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
How important are satellites for communications/navigation for/ with unmanned platforms?
Very important? The key challenge is bandwidth and data rates. What is being exchanged are sensor pictures, command and control decisions which has high data / real-time requirements. Traditional long range comms (e.g VLF/ULF) have low data rates and are not suitable for any real-time work. LOS systems means these they can't go far either.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Since page #707, there have been some links posted (with IP's comments, which are ALL worth reading) & here are a couple more...

New Warships COULD BE Built in Rosyth

OUTLINE behind binning plans for future Destroyers

DIP setting up for failure ?

The context & issues behind them are to say the least 'COMPLICATED'.

Shrinking numbers of NEW sailors / falling numbers in births across the Western world,
The current POLITICAL situation in the UK,
The wars in Ukraine & the IRANIAN/Gulf situation,
The NEED for the UK to UPDATE the fleet

THOSE are x6 MEATY issues, which can be added to, with countless others.

The next part may seem like the rantings of a lunatic, up too late at night, with a lack of sleep (which is partly true, but follow the dots...)

The UK Armed Forces have been underfunded for the last 40 years ! (Plain & Simple). Party due to financial constraints, partly due to duff input from VARIOUS political parties / leaders (I am NOT picking on left of right, as BOTH are guilty !).

On the NAVAL Front, the Boom-n-Bust procurement policies / the lack of investment / the Cold-war / Glasnost PEACE dividend & the inability to keep up with NATO required minimum GDP spending limits are all little strings to a bow which will continue to be added to from the myriad of issues from the x6 items listed above.

But for the moment, lets draw a line under that. Yes, it is relevant, but it is colour to the background, as we've gotta look at EXACTLY where we are at this moment.

The Leadership change / the LOSS of a Defence Secretary who opted to resign, as the government STILL weren't practicing what they were preaching, have delayed the formal release of the Defence Investment Plan(DIP). the upshot of this is the media are running around like headless chickens, trying to cover the bases & the government are doing their BEST impression of the Barnum & Bailey circus !

Since the Official release, it is like EVERY 2nd day, ANOTHER announcement comes out : Type 83 cancelled / CCV concept / the move to MORE tech (AI / Drones) / ANNOUNCEMENTS of NUMEROUS joint ventures, with other Nations, the RETIREMENT of x3 other serving vessels, to name but a few...


The HARD part is actually making sense of it all !

Lets put somethings into context...

UK SHIPBUILDING - has been underfunded / falling on its arse for years. Yards closing / consolidation / foreign investors swooping in & buying up companies / properties / assets & then looking for work / bidding for contracts / Programmes being announced/bid & won.

Currently, BAE's yards in Glasgow will be tied up with BUILD of Type 26 & GCS variants. Logically, it may mean Design & Management teams are freed up to cope with some of the 'tasking' on the 'other contracts' being announced, but that can't be guaranteed.
BARROW will NOT be building warships, as they are focussed on subs (noting that the apprenticeship intake target in 2025 was approx. 1,600 apprentices (but that's off on a tangent from THIS discussion).
PORTSMOUTH Facilities are tied up with the PIP workload & FLEETWIDE updates on Type 45.

NAVANITIA in Northern Ireland are focussed on FSS & will be looking to bid into the OTHER contracts being floated.

BABCOCK Rosyth, are focused on Type 31, hoping to trade this up into some of the other contracts being proposed.

This leaves the smaller players / commercial yards, with the likes of the BALAENA conglomerate (BALAENA UK) & Fergusons, who are both involved in unit construction for Type 26, but who would like a slice of the cake that's being proposed.


The elements listed above encapsulate the MAJORITY of the UK shipbuilding facilities, which begs the question, HOW are we going to manage it all ?

Then there's the Tech/AI elements - the unmanned vessels (ABOVE & BELOW the surface), their integration into the current fleet, their CONOPS/CONUSE are in their infancy. SOME aspects haven't got answers yet & SOME of the related questions will NOT get asked until the vessels are being operated & somes asks "WHAT about this ? WHAT do we do ?"
Other elements like the FULL integration of the automation systems (Under the likes of "INDUSTRY 4.0" / IF you have NO CLUE what that is, GO GOOGLE it !). THEY are crucial to the ability to operate a vessel with fewer / NO crew & having worked within the UK Naval Design / Build / Testing fraternity, it is safe to say that I HAVE NOT experienced it on any of the warships built over the last 30 years.

I don't dispute that ELEMENTS of automation have been part of these vessels, but the CONCEPT requires just about EVERY element that MAY have been involved to come together as ONE SYSTEM & be fitted to a ship, all within the next 5 years, or less.

Just think about that. WHICH software do they use ? Yes ships have an 'integrated' computer control system, tied into DOZENS of systems across the likes of cruise liners & some warships, but THAT SOFTAWRE is going to have to 'talk' to ALL the kit / valves / pumps, while possibly being part of the system that takes the ship out & operates it autonomously, without a man in the loop. (I THINK that this is a bit more 'complicated' than the likes of TESLA's self-drive system !)


ANYWAY, that's enough of a RANT for now, but it is CERTAIN that like it or not, WE will all be discussing the events of the last 3 weeks, as MORE meat is added to the bones of those numerous releases

SA
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Didn't the Dutch buy pretty much what we required - working perfectly from the start?
I don't know about the Netherlands deal but the package we needed was available off the shelf - the Nightstalkers are doing pretty much the same job and I'm given to believe the UK had a look at the config and decided to reinvent the wheel in order to save money. This obviously did not work out.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Since page #707, there have been some links posted (with IP's comments, which are ALL worth reading) & here are a couple more...

New Warships COULD BE Built in Rosyth

OUTLINE behind binning plans for future Destroyers

DIP setting up for failure ?

The context & issues behind them are to say the least 'COMPLICATED'.

Shrinking numbers of NEW sailors / falling numbers in births across the Western world,
The current POLITICAL situation in the UK,
The wars in Ukraine & the IRANIAN/Gulf situation,
The NEED for the UK to UPDATE the fleet

THOSE are x6 MEATY issues, which can be added to, with countless others.

The next part may seem like the rantings of a lunatic, up too late at night, with a lack of sleep (which is partly true, but follow the dots...)

The UK Armed Forces have been underfunded for the last 40 years ! (Plain & Simple). Party due to financial constraints, partly due to duff input from VARIOUS political parties / leaders (I am NOT picking on left of right, as BOTH are guilty !).

On the NAVAL Front, the Boom-n-Bust procurement policies / the lack of investment / the Cold-war / Glasnost PEACE dividend & the inability to keep up with NATO required minimum GDP spending limits are all little strings to a bow which will continue to be added to from the myriad of issues from the x6 items listed above.

But for the moment, lets draw a line under that. Yes, it is relevant, but it is colour to the background, as we've gotta look at EXACTLY where we are at this moment.

The Leadership change / the LOSS of a Defence Secretary who opted to resign, as the government STILL weren't practicing what they were preaching, have delayed the formal release of the Defence Investment Plan(DIP). the upshot of this is the media are running around like headless chickens, trying to cover the bases & the government are doing their BEST impression of the Barnum & Bailey circus !

Since the Official release, it is like EVERY 2nd day, ANOTHER announcement comes out : Type 83 cancelled / CCV concept / the move to MORE tech (AI / Drones) / ANNOUNCEMENTS of NUMEROUS joint ventures, with other Nations, the RETIREMENT of x3 other serving vessels, to name but a few...


The HARD part is actually making sense of it all !

Lets put somethings into context...

UK SHIPBUILDING - has been underfunded / falling on its arse for years. Yards closing / consolidation / foreign investors swooping in & buying up companies / properties / assets & then looking for work / bidding for contracts / Programmes being announced/bid & won.

Currently, BAE's yards in Glasgow will be tied up with BUILD of Type 26 & GCS variants. Logically, it may mean Design & Management teams are freed up to cope with some of the 'tasking' on the 'other contracts' being announced, but that can't be guaranteed.
BARROW will NOT be building warships, as they are focussed on subs (noting that the apprenticeship intake target in 2025 was approx. 1,600 apprentices (but that's off on a tangent from THIS discussion).
PORTSMOUTH Facilities are tied up with the PIP workload & FLEETWIDE updates on Type 45.

NAVANITIA in Northern Ireland are focussed on FSS & will be looking to bid into the OTHER contracts being floated.

BABCOCK Rosyth, are focused on Type 31, hoping to trade this up into some of the other contracts being proposed.

This leaves the smaller players / commercial yards, with the likes of the BALAENA conglomerate (BALAENA UK) & Fergusons, who are both involved in unit construction for Type 26, but who would like a slice of the cake that's being proposed.


The elements listed above encapsulate the MAJORITY of the UK shipbuilding facilities, which begs the question, HOW are we going to manage it all ?

Then there's the Tech/AI elements - the unmanned vessels (ABOVE & BELOW the surface), their integration into the current fleet, their CONOPS/CONUSE are in their infancy. SOME aspects haven't got answers yet & SOME of the related questions will NOT get asked until the vessels are being operated & somes asks "WHAT about this ? WHAT do we do ?"
Other elements like the FULL integration of the automation systems (Under the likes of "INDUSTRY 4.0" / IF you have NO CLUE what that is, GO GOOGLE it !). THEY are crucial to the ability to operate a vessel with fewer / NO crew & having worked within the UK Naval Design / Build / Testing fraternity, it is safe to say that I HAVE NOT experienced it on any of the warships built over the last 30 years.

I don't dispute that ELEMENTS of automation have been part of these vessels, but the CONCEPT requires just about EVERY element that MAY have been involved to come together as ONE SYSTEM & be fitted to a ship, all within the next 5 years, or less.

Just think about that. WHICH software do they use ? Yes ships have an 'integrated' computer control system, tied into DOZENS of systems across the likes of cruise liners & some warships, but THAT SOFTAWRE is going to have to 'talk' to ALL the kit / valves / pumps, while possibly being part of the system that takes the ship out & operates it autonomously, without a man in the loop. (I THINK that this is a bit more 'complicated' than the likes of TESLA's self-drive system !)


ANYWAY, that's enough of a RANT for now, but it is CERTAIN that like it or not, WE will all be discussing the events of the last 3 weeks, as MORE meat is added to the bones of those numerous releases

SA
The level of automation required is certainly something that worries me - not just in terms of day to day running, but how will damage control work?

The fact that there are no CONOPS for any of this should also give reason for pause here -I think some small scale trials might have been helpful in working through this but it seems more like we'll be figuring this stuff out when the platforms get delivered.
 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
The level of automation required is certainly something that worries me - not just in terms of day to day running, but how will damage control work?

The fact that there are no CONOPS for any of this should also give reason for pause here -I think some small scale trials might have been helpful in working through this but it seems more like we'll be figuring this stuff out when the platforms get delivered.
Which becomes the tail wagging the dog. CONOPS, even theoretical ones, should inform the ship design not the other way round. Even taking the current CONOPS and working out how to do those without manning, or minimal manning, would be better than having nothing at all as a reference.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
Batch 1 of the River class to be decomissioned in 2028. They have been offered to Uruguay as interim OPV replacements following their cancelled OPV contract. A technical team was sent for inspection earlier this year.

 
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