The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[Systems Adict]

HMS Cardiff breaks cover...

I can confirm, having driven passed the shipyard, that both front & rear sections of HMS Cardiff are now out on the concrete, have been aligned & are getting ready to weld the x2 sections together. I expect that that will take us towards the end of the year, when they will also likely fit the foremast section.

HMS Cardiff should hopefully be the last ship that this happens with, as with the deepwater berth at the shipyard now filled in & piling operations underway, the new manufacturing hall should be ready in about 18 months / towards the end of 2024...

...& from them that haven't seen this...

New build hall at Govan shipyard

& here's another link with a short embedded video within the page, top help give some further context...

New build hall - in-situ perspective

...& a finally, a link with some of the latest images of the work taking place.

Build hall - Current state of play...

SA

 

[Systems Adict]

Latest images / data on the BAE build hall at the Govan shipyard...

Frigate factory starts to take shape...

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Latest images / data on the BAE build hall at the Govan shipyard...
Frigate factory starts to take shape...

The article is a bit out of date - UKDJ have a habit of rehashing old articles rather than properly rewriting and updating. Last time I heard it's Batch 2 that will be built in the new factory, i.e. HMS Birmingham onwards.

Still great that the new facility is being built at all. Probably a bit too short to build the Type 83, but still very important for future shipbuilding in the UK.

 

[south]

HMS Diamond shoots down attack drone.

BBC News article. HMS Diamond has successfully have engaged a Houthi drone IVO Yemen, while protecting international shipping. This is the first RN engagement of an air threat since they shot down some Iraqi silkworms in 1991.

Edited to add the BBC news article, which confirmed my earlier guess that it was the first RN engagement since GW1.

 

[koxinga]

Is the manpower situation that bad?

This trade-off does not seems to make sense. I get it when RN decides to decomm the older frigates, however bad it makes the fleet numbers but aleast they are going towards funding manpower to the T26s.

But deleting the Albion class effectively is neutering a strategic capability (with only 3 Bay class left) and all this for manpower?

The Times & The Sunday Times

News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times

www.thetimes.co.uk

 

[swerve]

Grant Shapps said it. That's enough. He's proof that it's possible to be a complete idiot & still make money. When I heard he'd been made defence minister I was very depressed. I was right.

 

[Redshift]

Is the manpower situation that bad?

This trade-off does not seems to make sense. I get it when RN decides to decomm the older frigates, however bad it makes the fleet numbers but aleast they are going towards funding manpower to the T26s.

But deleting the Albion class effectively is neutering a strategic capability (with only 3 Bay class left) and all this for manpower?

The Times & The Sunday Times

News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times

www.thetimes.co.uk

The Royal Marines are probably one of the UK'S most celebrated units, to do this to them is both disgraceful and stupid.

The manning problem is in all three UK forces, and seems to be the direct consequence of outsourcing recruitment to private companies and it seems to Be getting worse not better.

Here is an article about our problems training pilots for the RAF.

Trainee RAF pilots face year-long wait to start flying lessons due to training 'shambles'

The delay, aimed at easing a logjam in the troubled system, comes as the UK prepares to start giving Ukrainian aviators initial training as part of an effort by allies to help Kyiv operate western fast jets to combat Russia's invasion.

news.sky.com

This one is about our problems with Naval recruitment.

Royal Navy failing to get enough recruits into basic training | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

.

 

[Systems Adict]

The manning problem is in all three UK forces, and seems to be the direct consequence of outsourcing recruitment to private companies and it seems to be getting worse not better.

The BIGGEST issue affecting all trades & services across not just the UK, but the whole Western world, is manpower.

The reasoning for this (believe it or not), actually starts back in the swinging 60's & the introduction of the birth control pill. This followed by reductions in the numbers of births from 1970 onwards, matched with societal changes to income / free time & the drive to get more people into further education. ALL of these seemingly innocuous items (plus numerous other factors), have culminated in a tsunami here in the 2020's.

There simply aren't enough young people out there to back fill the 10's of 1,000's of roles across the services & engineering industries, from those who've either reached the end of their working lives & are retiring, or those who are 45+ & are 'seeing the light' of enjoying life, following their experiences during lockdown.

To back this up I can quote numbers : - 1986 - the high school I attended had 2500 pupils attending it from all classes (1st thru to 6th year). Fast fwd to 2023, I was back visiting the school as one of half a dozen guest speakers, discussing career choices. Across the same age range there's 650 pupils.

Yes, I have no doubt that the forces recruitment processes & how / whom it's managed by will be a factor, but in the UK, the secondary school system is directed by the UK government, to drive pupils into college / university. This is also perpetuated by x3 generations of parents who see doing manual labour tasks, or serving their country as a career, as 'dirty'. It means that many pupils won't consider the armed forces or engineering as a career option.

But enough ranting - time for me to get off my soap-box.

SA

 

[John Fedup]

I believe the income situation is very significant. The cost of living make’s larger families just about impossible. Smaller families improve the quality of life by being more affordable. Frankly, considering the moronic pollies at all levels of government here, it is amazing people are willing to bring children into this world. Considering the deteriorating geopolitical situation, newborns may not have much to look forward to. No wonder so many are jumping on the AI and unmanned vehicles of all types bandwagon. A real bummer if all this advanced stuff ends up stuffing us.

 

[spoz]

Not to mention mainstream media taking every opportunity offered to “bag” the Services. What incentive is there to join organisations when all you hear and see about them are negative stories?

 

[Redshift]

The Royal Marines are probably one of the UK'S most celebrated units, to do this to them is both disgraceful and stupid.

The manning problem is in all three UK forces, and seems to be the direct consequence of outsourcing recruitment to private companies and it seems to Be getting worse not better.

Here is an article about our problems training pilots for the RAF.

Trainee RAF pilots face year-long wait to start flying lessons due to training 'shambles'

The delay, aimed at easing a logjam in the troubled system, comes as the UK prepares to start giving Ukrainian aviators initial training as part of an effort by allies to help Kyiv operate western fast jets to combat Russia's invasion.

news.sky.com

This one is about our problems with Naval recruitment.

Royal Navy failing to get enough recruits into basic training | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

.

Not to mention mainstream media taking every opportunity offered to “bag” the Services. What incentive is there to join organisations when all you hear and see about them are negative stories?

I'm not sure that I see much of that, could you link some examples of such negative media stories?

 

[koxinga]

The BIGGEST issue affecting all trades & services across not just the UK, but the whole Western world, is manpower.

The reasoning for this (believe it or not), actually starts back in the swinging 60's & the introduction of the birth control pill. This followed by reductions in the numbers of births from 1970 onwards, matched with societal changes to income / free time & the drive to get more people into further education. ALL of these seemingly innocuous items (plus numerous other factors), have culminated in a tsunami here in the 2020's.

There simply aren't enough young people out there to back fill the 10's of 1,000's of roles across the services & engineering industries, from those who've either reached the end of their working lives & are retiring, or those who are 45+ & are 'seeing the light' of enjoying life, following their experiences during lockdown.

To back this up I can quote numbers : - 1986 - the high school I attended had 2500 pupils attending it from all classes (1st thru to 6th year). Fast fwd to 2023, I was back visiting the school as one of half a dozen guest speakers, discussing career choices. Across the same age range there's 650 pupils.

Yes, I have no doubt that the forces recruitment processes & how / whom it's managed by will be a factor, but in the UK, the secondary school system is directed by the UK government, to drive pupils into college / university. This is also perpetuated by x3 generations of parents who see doing manual labour tasks, or serving their country as a career, as 'dirty'. It means that many pupils won't consider the armed forces or engineering as a career option.

There is two dimensions to look at the manpower. The first being the absolute TRF (total fertility ratio) which forms the superset of available manpower and the second being market economics. Your points or rant about birth control doesn't seem to make sense, when compared to say, Singapore and Korea.

1. UK TFR, 1.61 in 2021 (link)
2. South Korea TFR, 0.81 in 2021 (link)
3. Singapore TFR, 1.12 in 2021 (link)
4. Japan TFR, 1.3 in 2021 (link)

From a TFR perspective, it is reasonable. Most mature economies have lower TFR relative to developing countries and there are reasons (outside of this thread) for them.

We are just left with the reason of market economics that are affecting recruitment and how the armed forces are perceived.

The other thing I can think of is whether RN advocate automation in the design of their platform. The complement quoted for T26/T31 frigates are high, against relative to Japan for example where a Mogami class frigate as a stated complement of just 90 or Singapore's Formidable class where the crew requirements are 71 excl aviation.

 

[old faithful]

The Royal Marines are probably one of the UK'S most celebrated units, to do this to them is both disgraceful and stupid.

The manning problem is in all three UK forces, and seems to be the direct consequence of outsourcing recruitment to private companies and it seems to Be getting worse not better.

Here is an article about our problems training pilots for the RAF.

Trainee RAF pilots face year-long wait to start flying lessons due to training 'shambles'

The delay, aimed at easing a logjam in the troubled system, comes as the UK prepares to start giving Ukrainian aviators initial training as part of an effort by allies to help Kyiv operate western fast jets to combat Russia's invasion.

news.sky.com

This one is about our problems with Naval recruitment.

Royal Navy failing to get enough recruits into basic training | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

.

I agree about privatised recruitment.
They recruit to quotas and at times recruit the wrong people, because they just don't understand. I work for corrections in Australia, and we have gone down that path. We are getting people who just are not right for the job, which results in a revolving door and lower standards in the work place. I guess a arevolving door is great for a private business that needs to fill spots!

 

[swerve]

Yes, I have no doubt that the forces recruitment processes & how / whom it's managed by will be a factor, but in the UK, the secondary school system is directed by the UK government, to drive pupils into college / university. This is also perpetuated by x3 generations of parents who see doing manual labour tasks, or serving their country as a career, as 'dirty'. It means that many pupils won't consider the armed forces or engineering as a career option.

SA

Absolutely. The bloke who serviced our gas boiler for many years, & replaced it a few months ago, has an HND - a qualification with an excellent combination of hands-on practical training & a solid classroom study of relevant theory. He's bloody good, as well as being completely reliable.

The mad rush here to drive 18 year olds into degree courses (including turning many vocational courses into degrees, with a shift towards more classroom & less practical teaching) drove many potential skilled workers away from such courses & into purely academic degree courses, which merely inflated the entry requirements for non-technical office jobs & the like. So, we have people with degrees working behind bars, & a severe shortage of many manual-cum-technical skills.

BTW, I've noticed that an HND is now counted as equivalent to the 2nd year of a 3 year degree. IIRC applying to university with an HND allowed you to skip the 1st year when I was at uni, though it was accepted as worth more than that for practical skills. It was the sort of qualification our lab techs usually had. We should be encouraging more youngsters to go for courses like that, & expanding provision of them.

 

[Volkodav]

Absolutely. The bloke who serviced our gas boiler for many years, & replaced it a few months ago, has an HND - a qualification with an excellent combination of hands-on practical training & a solid classroom study of relevant theory. He's bloody good, as well as being completely reliable.

The mad rush here to drive 18 year olds into degree courses (including turning many vocational courses into degrees, with a shift towards more classroom & less practical teaching) drove many potential skilled workers away from such courses & into purely academic degree courses, which merely inflated the entry requirements for non-technical office jobs & the like. So, we have people with degrees working behind bars, & a severe shortage of many manual-cum-technical skills.

BTW, I've noticed that an HND is now counted as equivalent to the 2nd year of a 3 year degree. IIRC applying to university with an HND allowed you to skip the 1st year when I was at uni, though it was accepted as worth more than that for practical skills. It was the sort of qualification our lab techs usually had. We should be encouraging more youngsters to go for courses like that, & expanding provision of them.

Temple Grandin an accomplished academic, industrial designer, animal behavioralist, author and autism advocate, has written extensively on visual thinking and it relationship to doers and makers.

Basically she writes that universities tend to cater to verbal thinkers (lawyers, arts, business etc) and spacial visual thinkers (mathematicians, physicists, etc.) while the object visual thinkers are more hands on, trade, technical, design, visual arts etc.

Universities are not the best place to grow the skills of object visual thinkers, they are better off doing, then asking why, rather than being told why without context.

 

[StobieWan]

Absolutely. The bloke who serviced our gas boiler for many years, & replaced it a few months ago, has an HND - a qualification with an excellent combination of hands-on practical training & a solid classroom study of relevant theory. He's bloody good, as well as being completely reliable.

The mad rush here to drive 18 year olds into degree courses (including turning many vocational courses into degrees, with a shift towards more classroom & less practical teaching) drove many potential skilled workers away from such courses & into purely academic degree courses, which merely inflated the entry requirements for non-technical office jobs & the like. So, we have people with degrees working behind bars, & a severe shortage of many manual-cum-technical skills.

BTW, I've noticed that an HND is now counted as equivalent to the 2nd year of a 3 year degree. IIRC applying to university with an HND allowed you to skip the 1st year when I was at uni, though it was accepted as worth more than that for practical skills. It was the sort of qualification our lab techs usually had. We should be encouraging more youngsters to go for courses like that, & expanding provision of them.

I did an OND myself as an alternative to A levels and went on to start an HND, but withdrew as I was honestly out of my depth. Very strong focus on practical skills and hands on labs, with much more lab time than anything I saw on my degree however.

The rush to persuade everyone to get a degree is, I think, counter productive. I've already mentioned the example of the girl at a local burger van turning out to have a degree in event management. Way too many examples like this, where people are emerging from university with pointless degrees with incredibly generic scopes.

The other issue is that while in say, Germany, an engineer is a protected title, conferring status, in the UK, it's applied to any random person with a screwdriver.

 

[Rob c]

Universities are not the best place to grow the skills of object visual thinkers, they are better off doing, then asking why, rather than being told why without context

Schools are even worse, especially for the dyslexic community, which accounts for up to 20% of the population.
A gripe of mine as Dyslexia runs through my family.

 

[Rob c]

Basically she writes that universities tend to cater to verbal thinkers (lawyers, arts, business etc) and spacial visual thinkers (mathematicians, physicists, etc.) while the object visual thinkers are more hands on, trade, technical, design, visual arts etc.

I have read over the years a significant amount of material in regard to the way people think which is fascinating and while a large amount of research has been carried out and there has been some correlation. there is still room for bring more of it together.
For instance I have an interest in dyslexia, and the research indicates that they are big picture thinkers, probably not verbal thinkers(famous examples, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Dr Robert Ballard) . Then earlier in the year on the one news in NZ on separate occasions the following was stated. 6 out of 10 prisoners in NZ were dyslexic and then on a later occasion that half the worlds billionaires were dyslexic. If these figures are half right and you add in things like Autism etc , then our education system is not fit for purpose. I suspect that due to the differing thinking styles most of the teaching and management staff of our education system would fall into the verbal thing mode and have little understanding of other ways of thinking.

 

[ngatimozart]

NZDF is big into psychometric testing for its recruit applicants. It's all done on the website now with people not able to walk in off the street and speak to a recruiter direct. I believe that it does have problems. An explanation of the testing.

 

[Meriv90]

HMS Diamond ‘not enough missiles’ for sustained fight

"It's almost comical to think about targeting HMS Diamond, of all ships, with a missile. It's like deciding to punch Muhammad Ali and expecting to land a decent hit."

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

The OSINT Bunker - News Snapshots - The OSINT Bunker - News Snapshots S1E01 (13th January 2024) | RSS.com

Season 1 - Episode 1 //News Snapshots is the new fortnightly news podcast from The OSINT Bunker team //13th January 2024 - Discussing Op Propserity Guardian in the Red Sea, the ongoing situation in Israel and Gaza, and predictions for the Ukraine-Russia conflict as 2024 begins. //Featuring...

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Lets see how the Houti blockade will change the number of VLS on European navies.