The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I think this may have something to do with the 'Poland are building' part of the conversation...

Poland strikes deal to buy Type 31's

If Poland are building x3, they can build parts for x6, build identical / specific sections for UK T31, so the ships in the UK can be 'built' faster.

UK PLC wants 'competition' in the UK market place & they will see nothing wrong with it...
 

FormerDirtDart

Well-Known Member
An old Duke looking a bit like an old service member already well into their retirement mode.
Sitting down to a late morning coffee, several days past needing a shave, and in a robe that's a bit past needing a good wash

(Now, now. Meant in good fun. Well aware of the standard shabby appearance of damn near every USN ship for the past decade)
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Means that they don't behave like a warship in full commission. No compliments paid, reduced or no duty watch so reduced or no firefighting and other damage control capability, with maybe a single sentry on the browrather than a QM and bosun's mate. There are various levels; you can be out of routine while still in commission, maybe while undergoing maintenance, and still retain some or even most of the charactarisitics of an operational warship. At the other end, all you might have is a small shipkeeping party who go home at the end of the day after locking up.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Means that they don't behave like a warship in full commission. No compliments paid, reduced or no duty watch so reduced or no firefighting and other damage control capability, with maybe a single sentry on the browrather than a QM and bosun's mate. There are various levels; you can be out of routine while still in commission, maybe while undergoing maintenance, and still retain some or even most of the charactarisitics of an operational warship. At the other end, all you might have is a small shipkeeping party who go home at the end of the day after locking up.
My sister went out with an RN artificer ("tiff" at the time IIRC) when she was at uni. One day he told her he'd been aboard a frigate fixing something that day when an officer accosted him & asked if he was X. He said yes, & the officer said "I'm going off duty, & that makes you the senior person aboard. Your ship." Bit of a shock, he said. He had to make sure a couple of ratings aboard left when he did & lock up when he'd finished, & IIRC there was some handover thing, maybe just reporting that he'd left the ship.

It was in Portsmouth navy base, & the ship wasn't going anywhere for a little while. Not in for refit or anything major, IIRC, but having some maintenance.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well, looks like my hopes that type 31 would come in on time and on budget are to be dashed. Between the strike proposed and a contractual issue, it's not looking great.

 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
Well, looks like my hopes that type 31 would come in on time and on budget are to be dashed. Between the strike proposed and a contractual issue, it's not looking great.
The impact of inflation on the contract (which is inevitably linked to the strike) can be resolved by way of arbitration, so I don't think it will be that bad. Given the sum is less than 10% of the contract it may even be negotiated with the MoD.

Babcock are unlikely to down tools in the interim as it would negatively affect their chances of getting a further contract.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
The impact of inflation on the contract (which is inevitably linked to the strike) can be resolved by way of arbitration, so I don't think it will be that bad. Given the sum is less than 10% of the contract it may even be negotiated with the MoD.

Babcock are unlikely to down tools in the interim as it would negatively affect their chances of getting a further contract.
I don't expect Babcock to down tools - as you say, that would invoke penalty clauses and other things - but they do have a threat of strike action from the workforce.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
they do have a threat of strike action from the workforce
From the support staff to a company they sub-contract to, not the engineers who do the really important work. It might slow the work down a bit but not stop it entirely.

They can also put pressure on the subcontractor to resolve the pay issue, otherwise they'd probably be within their rights to terminate their contract and bring someone else in.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Y
From the support staff to a company they sub-contract to, not the engineers who do the really important work. It might slow the work down a bit but not stop it entirely.

They can also put pressure on the subcontractor to resolve the pay issue, otherwise they'd probably be within their rights to terminate their contract and bring someone else in.
Yeah, because bringing in a third party skilled and qualified to do the job would take no time at all.


Or, alternatively, they're not stacking shelves at the local supermarket and that would totally take more time.


I'll leave you to decide.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
I think the strike has been blown out of proportion because of the wider strikes happening in the UK. People see "strike at a shipyard" rather than look at exactly who is striking and who is employing them.

If the Type 31 project gets derailed because of cleaners (and others) striking, then Babcock should wind up and let someone else make the hard decisions.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
I think the strike has been blown out of proportion because of the wider strikes happening in the UK. People see "strike at a shipyard" rather than look at exactly who is striking and who is employing them.

If the Type 31 project gets derailed because of cleaners (and others) striking, then Babcock should wind up and let someone else make the hard decisions.
It is the UK. This happens and will continue to happen, Babcock or BAE.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
Babcock strike at Rosyth has been called off. The union reached an agreement with Kaefer. There's no mention of Babcock stepping in to increase funds.

As I suspected would happen, this was resolved quickly and sensibly without a real impact on the Type 31 project.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
That's a relief. Next step, resolve the contractual talks (probably inflation related) to do with the Type 31 program and we're maybe seeing hulls in water.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
That's a relief. Next step, resolve the contractual talks (probably inflation related) to do with the Type 31 program and we're maybe seeing hulls in water.
The MoD has formally rejected Babcock's claim for extra funds. The ball is therefore in Babcock's court. Either they can go back with a revised (i.e. lower) request or they will have to go to arbitration for a final decision (and potentially get nothing). As Babcock is bound by this process, it's improbable they would have the option of stopping work in the interim.

If Babcock are smart about this, they'll have a rethink and agree to share some (or more) of the pain from inflation. Otherwise they may not get the Type 32 contract - or there simply won't be the money for it.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
Interesting statement made in response to a question from an MP.

Since the signature of the Type 31 manufacture contract in November 2019 the Ministry of Defence has agreed with Babcock an increase in the overall price of the contract of some £40 million as a result of the impact of COVID and supply chain volatility. This amounts to only circa 3% of the production cost of the ships. The average production cost remains £250 million per ship.

Assuming this isn't a recent offer, it makes the UK government's position regarding Babcock over the Type 31 more reasonable. They've already agreed pain sharing with Babcock, so the company can't pretend its having to absorb all the inflationary costs.

If on the other hand this is a recent offer, I think Babcock shouldn't be asking for much more.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member

The First Sea Lord has confirmed today that the Type 31 will receive the Mk41 vertical launch system. This is excellent news, as it will significantly increase their offensive capabilities, whilst also allowing for more Sea Ceptor air defence missiles to be fitted if necessary. This is on top of the prospect of NSM missiles being fitted to the class as the Type 23s come out of service.

It does mean it's less likely the Type 32 frigates will be ordered anytime soon, but I think that's an acceptable trade off.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
It is huge and I think changes some of the ideas about the Type 31. We may see the first few ships lighted fitted out as more patrol ships, while later batches are fitted with significant more capable weapon systems. Raises some questions about the Type 26.

But as pointed out, there are many questions. Is this instead of CAMM? Will there be missiles. Why fit Mk41 to the Type 31 frigate, and not the type 45 destroyer. What impact will it have on the ships capability in other areas. It would appear to block the flex space in between the central flex space and the hangar. Guess we will see.

if we believed everything leadership mentioned or announced, Australia would have F-35B's, a couple of carriers, Japanese, French and American submarines. Long road from announcement to actual capability.
The Type 26 is first & foremost an ASW ship, with hull & propulsion heavily optimised for that role. The original plan was for 13 T26 to replace 13 Type 23 (also primarily ASW), 5 of them being fitted out for a GP role to replace 5 GP T23. That was changed to 8 T26, all ASW-focused, & 5 T31 replacing the GP T23s. T31 isn't going to be a top tier ASW ship whatever you fit to it, so the T26 is safe, as long as the RN sees itself needing to be able to fight high-end submarines. There's been talk of an improved T31, the T32 - but as well as T26, not instead of it, & fitting Mk 41 to T31 may be instead of T32.

Why T31 instead of T45? Because T45 doesn't have anywhere to put a lot of strike length Mk41 that isn't already taken up with other stuff that nobody wants to remove from it. It has 48 Sylver A50 for Aster 15/30, & is to get 24 CAMM launchers as well, to enable the Sylver VLS to be filled with just Aster 30, the 15 being disposed of. IIRC that's just a matter of replacing the boosters with Aster 30 boosters. Presumably the Aster 15 boosters will be returned to MBDA.

CAMM can fit in Mk41 via ExLS host, 4 per Mk41 cell. Or if there's room, the CAMM launchers could be left in place, saving the cost of ExLS. Nothing has been said in public. Shephard Media says that an assessment phase has begun, i.e. money is being spent on looking at options, roles, work needed, costs, etc., & that it's being done with the USN.

Admiral Key said “…we also need to advance our ability to deliver lethal long-range offensive fires against our adversaries. Hence the decision to ensure the Mark 41 Vertical Launch Silo is fitted to the Type 26 and, I am delighted to say, we intend to fit it also to our Type 31 frigates. This will enable potential use of a large variety of current and future anti-air, anti-surface, ballistic missile defence and strike missiles” . The RN is buying NSM now for T23 & is working on longer range anti-surface missiles. The Mk 41 on both T26 & T31 could hold those longer range anti-surface missiles.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Given its size T31 hull could certainly take the sensor and combat system fitted to the ANZAC. It would also appear to be able to carry more cells (24 to 36 has been mooted I think) making it a very good GP frigate (basically your Tier 2) but it would lack the ASW capability of the Hunter
T31 is built to be able to take 32 strike-length Mk41 - 4 x 8. That's in the published data. It not only has space, but the foundations under that space are being built in.
 
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