The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[Volkodav]

I have only x1 thing to say & it's in the form of a video....

Rapid launch of loyal wingman style ucavs to support F-35? What are the recovery parameters of a similarly sized ucav?

Could see these being used for CAP, surveillance, reconnaissance etc. Leaving the F-35 for more complex duties. Another thought is they could be used in numbers on a smaller, simpler platform than the QEs, perhaps a belated replacement for Ocean as well as the LPDs.

 

[StobieWan]

Well, 47000 lbs would manage an MQ-25 Stingray quite handily. Which would get you air to air tanking plus a few other interesting opportunities.

We'll have to see what happens when the bids come in.

Between that and the mysterious Type 32, it's hard keeping up with stuff right now

 

[swerve]

Don't forget the Boris problem. Trying too hard to keep up may be a waste of effort, as tomorrow he'll have forgotten what he said yesterday.

 

[StobieWan]

Don't forget the Boris problem. Trying too hard to keep up may be a waste of effort, as tomorrow he'll have forgotten what he said yesterday.

Or a leadership challenge. Or Scottish independence. It's not going to be dull for sure.

 

[John Fedup]

Or a leadership challenge. Or Scottish independence. It's not going to be dull for sure.

Challenges that certainly aren’t limited to your side of the pond! No wonder alcohol sales are booming...it’s not only because of COVID.

 

[overlander]

True or false ?

UK reportedly to cut F-35B order by 65 percent

The Sunday Times has reported that the UK is likely only to purchase 48 F-35B jets.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

If so has no sense to maintain 2 carriers for only 48 fighters to be Shared by R.N. and RAF.

I hope the next defence review is not one more time a cuts review.

 

[John Fedup]

True or false ?

UK reportedly to cut F-35B order by 65 percent

The Sunday Times has reported that the UK is likely only to purchase 48 F-35B jets.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

If so has no sense to maintain 2 carriers for only 48 fighters to be Shared by R.N. and RAF.

I hope the next defence review is not one more time a cuts review.

Best to wait for the actual announcement. The proposed EMALS lite proposal might be part of this restructuring. Two carriers are still needed for redundancy.

 

[t68]

Best to wait for the actual announcement. The proposed EMALS lite proposal might be part of this restructuring. Two carriers are still needed for redundancy.

Yes correct, I think this is more of a case that government has leaked it to test the reaction (I cant confirm it) from memory it was envisioned that only one carrier would be operational at any one time 2 carrier in an emergency, but one would think if two were needed 72 air-frames would be the bare minimum after all there size was built around 36 F35B plus support aircraft. I could understand it if the intention was to sell one off

 

[hauritz]

The 138 was always an aspirational number so I don't see why there would even be any need to change that figure at this stage. The final number that the UK will actually end up with has never been set in stone but with the advent of the Tempest program it looks unlikely that the full 138 would ever have been acquired. At the moment the UK is only committed to 48 F-35B aircraft which isn't enough for two large carriers.

The minimum buy I have seen being tossed around at this stage is around 72 aircraft.

 

[StobieWan]

True or false ?

UK reportedly to cut F-35B order by 65 percent

The Sunday Times has reported that the UK is likely only to purchase 48 F-35B jets.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

If so has no sense to maintain 2 carriers for only 48 fighters to be Shared by R.N. and RAF.

I hope the next defence review is not one more time a cuts review.

Could be read a half dozen ways. Bear in mind, over the years I've read (in that same publication) that the carriers :

would be scrapped prior to build
Be immediately mothballed on completion
Be sold off to (insert boogeymen country)

Firstly, F35 will be in production for another 20 odd years - so, any announcement about numbers can easily be overtaken by a future decision by an incoming administration.

Secondly, it's not uncommon for spurious "nightmare condition" leaks to be provided to various publications - usually "the SAS will be scrapped" or "the Red Arrows will be disbanded" etc. Then, when it's announced we're mothballing a frigate and closing an old air base, everyone heaves a sigh of relief.

Finally, maybe they're going for a split buy ? No more than 48 F35B plus a stack of A's ?

 

[shanes_world_05]

The 138 was always an aspirational number so I don't see why there would even be any need to change that figure at this stage. The final number that the UK will actually end up with has never been set in stone but with the advent of the Tempest program it looks unlikely that the full 138 would ever have been acquired. At the moment the UK is only committed to 48 F-35B aircraft which isn't enough for two large carriers.

The minimum buy I have seen being tossed around at this stage is around 72 aircraft.

My understanding that 70 ish aircraft was the minimum to meet work share agreements but if the US is reducing its order this maybe moot?
Lockhheed will taking a hard turn on this.

 

[Ananda]

True or false ?

UK reportedly to cut F-35B order by 65 percent

The Sunday Times has reported that the UK is likely only to purchase 48 F-35B jets.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

How big the chances that RAF will let all F-35B operate by RN Air Wing if the number will only be either 48 or 72?

After all with that numbers, basically it's only enough to fill the two carriers operation. Will RAF agree to let their ego down and stick with Eurofighter and Tempest later on, and let RN operate all F-35B ?

 

[the concerned]

These so called leaked stories sound nothing other than each head saying what they think should be cut. Like the RN saying cut tanks, the Army say cut f35 's and Raf cutting the assault ships.

 

[John Fedup]

We should have a better understanding on cuts and/or additions when the IR is released (next week I think?).

 

[south]

How big the chances that RAF will let all F-35B operate by RN Air Wing if the number will only be either 48 or 72?

After all with that numbers, basically it's only enough to fill the two carriers operation. Will RAF agree to let their ego down and stick with Eurofighter and Tempest later on, and let RN operate all F-35B ?

RN doesn’t have the numbers or organisational experience to operate F-35 by themselves, and even if such a decision were to be made it would take them some time to build to be an effective force.

 

[StobieWan]

RN doesn’t have the numbers or organisational experience to operate F-35 by themselves, and even if such a decision were to be made it would take them some time to build to be an effective force.

Wot he said - the FAA has really no recent fast jet experience as an organisation and they're reliant on the RAF for maintainers, pilots, the works.

It'll improve now the FAA actually has a career path for fast jet pilots again.

 

[south]

Wot he said - the FAA has really no recent fast jet experience as an organisation and they're reliant on the RAF for maintainers, pilots, the works.

It'll improve now the FAA actually has a career path for fast jet pilots again.

It’s more than just pilots (as you said). The RN would also be significantly short on maintainers and in particular staffing (E.g all the roles that are done in positions such as the Abbey Wood, lightning force HQ, Air Warfare Centre, and ACURL).

A full transfer F-35 to RN would not be viable without most or all of these bodies transferring from the RAF. For these reasons it is a non-starter of an idea, at least in the medium term.

 

[t68]

It’s more than just pilots (as you said). The RN would also be significantly short on maintainers and in particular staffing (E.g all the roles that are done in positions such as the Abbey Wood, lightning force HQ, Air Warfare Centre, and ACURL).

A full transfer F-35 to RN would not be viable without most or all of these bodies transferring from the RAF. For these reasons it is a non-starter of an idea, at least in the medium term.

They have had joint force harriers, I don’t really see the problems of a joint maintenance depot, yes initially it will be reliant on RAF until the RN builds up a cadre of staffing. Not an insurmountable problem to me.

 

[Ananda]

transfer F-35 to RN would not be viable without most or all of these bodies transferring from the RAF.

yes initially it will be reliant on RAF until the RN builds up a cadre of staffing

I'm not following RN FAA much, but isn't during 3 Invincible Class time, FAA able to maintain similar numbers of Sea Harrier (around 40-60 if not mistaken from infos that I got) by their own?

From what I gather, current FAA organization is winding down due to the numbers of Fighters being allocated to them. However if looking back to the time of full Sea Harrier force they're handling at that time, surely it won't be that much problem to regain that organisational capabilities?

I'm thinking more on efficiency if VTOL handle by FAA (as RN that still need it). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I got impression the RAF interest on VTOL more due to situation in West Germany against East Germany and Warsaw Pact. With the landscape of Euro are different now, is RAF really still interested with VTOL? Isn't RAF actually more interested to F-35A instead B, and only accept B as compromise ?

So perhaps it's also more effective if RAF as organizational wise focus more on conventional take off Fighters while FAA focus on VTOL.

 

[south]

They have had joint force harriers, I don’t really see the problems of a joint maintenance depot, yes initially it will be reliant on RAF until the RN builds up a cadre of staffing. Not an insurmountable problem to me.

Which is why I said medium term. They were still the Junior partner in Harrier as well.

The problem comes with a ‘potential handover’ is that still leaves you significantly short of number of professionals that are in the essential, but out of sight, jobs such as capability/requirement jobs, engineering/airworthiness/capability assurance jobs, development/trials/tactics jobs, and lastly headquarters, etc.

As you said none of this is insurmountable however the RN are providing (something like) 40% of the front line staffing, which of 3 Squadrons (4 if you count 17Sqn in the US) is going to leave them short around two-three hundred trained people. Note this is just at a squadron level, not counting staff and HQ jobs).

The RN is not structured, and couldn’t be for a significant time, to run F-35 by themselves.