Welcome to DefenceTalk.com Forum!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

Discussion in 'Navy & Maritime' started by overlander, Dec 27, 2006.

Share This Page

  1. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Messages:
    5,993
    Likes Received:
    852
    Location:
    In the rum store
    I wonder if they should go with Babcock / OMT Arrowhead design for the T31, which is based on OMT Iver Huitfeld FFG already in service with the RDN. Most of the heavy lifting has been done and more importantly there already has been significant derisking. It can be FFBNW so that if necessary can have upgraded weapons and sensors capabilities similar to the T26. Using the same systems such as the Mk 45 5" gun, Sea Ceptor, Mk 41 VLS, and CMS as the T26, where possible, gives advantages and synergies of commonality. As long as the RN, MOD and pollies don't get bright ideas about bespoke systems unique to the T31, because, these bright ideas just drive costs up. Whilst they won't use the Danish STANFLEX system, as long as they stick to the OMT build philosophy and design, the ship will still be modular enough to allow for relatively easy and less expensive changes and upgrades over time.
     
    KiwiRob and swerve like this.
  2. John Fedup

    John Fedup Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    3,863
    Likes Received:
    252
    Location:
    Vancouver and Toronto
    Interesting how senior former officials critize decisions long after leaving office. The time to critize is during the decision process when it being made and to resign if one disagrees, not easy to do but if this were to happen more often, stuff wouldn't hit the fan quite as much.

    In the case of the RN's carriers, UK members can perhaps offer some views on the carrier decision but given the UK's financial crunch (if this is in fact the case), it would appear either the SSBNs or the carriers but not both.

    MoD will rue the day it spent £6bn on new aircraft carriers, says former defence chief
     
  3. John Fedup

    John Fedup Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    3,863
    Likes Received:
    252
    Location:
    Vancouver and Toronto
  4. Systems Adict

    Systems Adict Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2006
    Messages:
    970
    Likes Received:
    57
    I understand the sentiment in the synergy savings that could be made utilising 'old equipment' from the likes of T23 / to marry up with Type 26, but I am of the opinion that none of the x3 variants offered by any of the x3 suppliers are suitable to accept Mk 45, 5 inch gun.

    The reality will be that UK Mod will have to accept a NEW gun to their inventory, with the likelihood that it will be x1 of the following :


    76/62 SUPER RAPID - Leonardo Company


    57mm Naval Gun System | BAE Systems | International

    They may not be as big as the 5 inch, but their RoF (with 100+ rounds/minute), should help make up some of the difference.

    SA
     
  5. StobieWan

    StobieWan Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2010
    Messages:
    3,119
    Likes Received:
    118

    I think it's slightly amusing that the 31e was formulated as an export idea, at which point the much more expensive type 26 became the runaway rock star export success. I know all the builds are going overseas but it's still slightly funny.
     
  6. StobieWan

    StobieWan Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2010
    Messages:
    3,119
    Likes Received:
    118
    Jeremy Hunt has made his way into rhyming slang :) He's also famous for telling everyone that immigration wouldn't change post brexit despite the fact that it had been a campaign corner stone so I'd treat anything he says with either a measure of caution or just outright contempt depending on how much coffee you've had.

    At the rate we've been spending money on ferry contracts for ferry companies that have never ran a ferry service, I suspect doubling defence spending will only happen if Putin carpet bombs Birmingham with Backfires.
     
    John Fedup likes this.
  7. John Fedup

    John Fedup Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    3,863
    Likes Received:
    252
    Location:
    Vancouver and Toronto
    In other words, sadly, just another self-serving pollie. We have lots of them too!
    Overseas builds yes but UK companies will be getting significant business from the Hunter and CSC builds. These programs should make it easier for a few UK T26 export orders for countries wanting a higher end frigate, albeit this is likely a small number.
     
  8. spoz

    spoz Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2009
    Messages:
    372
    Likes Received:
    88
    Location:
    Osborne, SA
    That's an interesting comment considering that there are already a couple of A200s fitted with a 5 inch gun (admittedly the Italian version) while there are plenty of the earlier design fitted with both that and the Mark 45, and both Babcock and Cammell-Laird explicitly state that their designs can accept guns up to127mm. Do you have any supporting data?
     
    Volkodav likes this.
  9. ASSAIL

    ASSAIL Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Messages:
    2,704
    Likes Received:
    706
    Location:
    Darwin NT Australia
    The problem being that no one knows what the T31e will be, how could buyers consider until the RN settles on a design. T26 has been around for over a decade giving plenty of time to evaluate.
    The success or otherwise of T31e will not be realised for a further decade.
     
  10. oldsig127

    oldsig127 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Messages:
    525
    Likes Received:
    122
    Location:
    Brisbane
  11. StingrayOZ

    StingrayOZ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    Messages:
    3,156
    Likes Received:
    207
    Location:
    Sydney
    T26 had customer input as well. Apparently RAN requests were one of the reasons it grew so much in displacement. RAN had some input into the design. It was always going to get the attention of the Au, CA. How many are planned to be built? 35+? It will be the most numerous ship since the Burkes. Three production lines in three nations.

    T31e as I understand it is for smaller nations that would probably want a UK build. But what and who that is is not very clear. Middle east? Saudis? Qatar? But honestly is that really a market these days? And its likely your not going to pitch what they want. Which is why IMO the type 31e has flounded as a project.

    IMO the strength and momentum is with the Type 26 program. They would be better calling it the Type 26e.. Hit up New Zealand, Brazil (werent they buying 6?), Singapore. Even if you have to cut back to german levels on the actual weapon systems.
     
  12. KiwiRob

    KiwiRob Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2007
    Messages:
    907
    Likes Received:
    47
    Location:
    Norway
    Technically they haven’t exported any T26’s, the designed has been sold but no vessels built in UK yards will be exported to other countries as of now.

    Which T31E they will order hasn’t been decided on, once that’s known they will start offering it to anyone looking for a low to mid range frigate.
     
  13. Systems Adict

    Systems Adict Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2006
    Messages:
    970
    Likes Received:
    57
    My 'supporting data' is 2 decades of experience in shipbuild & repair, nothing else. The guns I quoted have considerably smaller deck footprints & deck/hull penetration than larger guns like 4.5" Mod1 or MK 45. The statement is 'My Opinion' & I'm very happy to be proved wrong as I'm sure that some navies will only consider those hull types if they have the bigger gun.
     
  14. StingrayOZ

    StingrayOZ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    Messages:
    3,156
    Likes Received:
    207
    Location:
    Sydney
    IMO there is a huge difference between a 5" and a 57mm/76mm. The 5" has proven very useful, has a significant range and power and there is a large set of support and ammunition types including longer range already available. ROF IMO doesn't make up. These days accuracy is more important than ROF.
     
  15. Unric

    Unric New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2018
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Australia
    Horses for courses isn't it? 5'' is much better for land support and large anti-surface while 76 and 57 are probably more suited to anti-air and swarm attacks?
     
  16. StingrayOZ

    StingrayOZ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    Messages:
    3,156
    Likes Received:
    207
    Location:
    Sydney
    5" was a popular anti-air round in ww2. The whole 4.5 verse 5 per shell effectiveness argument against aircraft.

    I think it would be a mistake to put a single 57mm on combat frigate and assume its going to handle significant air threats. RAM or ESSM or CAMM are more realistic options, and a proper CIWS is going to provide a proper layered defence.
    Then it also really limits your land and surface capability. I doubt they will be fitting Tomahawk onto these, so you are likely to be lumped with 57mm being your everything round.

    Given the shortage of units in the RN (and other export nations looking at small buys) going forward, and the future threats, and the role of frigates, dropping 4.5" and going 57 or even 76mm would seem to be a big step backwards.

    As antiquated as the gun is, its still the weapon most commonly used and operated. Its cheap. It can do many roles. Its effective. For the UK to introduce yet another round would be expensive, and knocking out the 5" would limit exports and credibility.

    Again, who are you targeting with exports?

    If you can fit a 5", you can fit a smaller gun, but some navies will need a 5". If you can't support a 5" then you are really in the small ship club, which is a heavily contested market place. That is going to be a place where a UK build will loose.
     
    ngatimozart likes this.
  17. John Fedup

    John Fedup Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    3,863
    Likes Received:
    252
    Location:
    Vancouver and Toronto
    Agree, a 57 mm gun on a frigate is too small for larger surface targets. I recall a video where the USN/RCN sank an old tribal class destroyer. The Halifax class frigate's 57 mm gun really wasn't up for the job nor were bombs dropped from CF-18 Hornets. A torpedo from a SSN split the ship in two and she sank in a couple of minutes. Still, the 57 mm is a good gun for smaller surface vessel targets and AA. The RCN should recycle these guns to the DeWolf class.
     
  18. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Messages:
    5,993
    Likes Received:
    852
    Location:
    In the rum store
    I see that the new UK SEC DEF has warned the UK Treasury that she will be fighting for more funding from them and they will not like it. But she said that they will hear the message that UK defence requires more money for critical defence needs. One thing that puzzles me is why is she wearing dolphins?

    New UK defense chief draws a line in the sand on military funding
     
  19. John Fedup

    John Fedup Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    3,863
    Likes Received:
    252
    Location:
    Vancouver and Toronto
    She is still a navy reservist but as for why the dolphins, not sure but perhaps showing her support for the Dreadnought class.
     
  20. StingrayOZ

    StingrayOZ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    Messages:
    3,156
    Likes Received:
    207
    Location:
    Sydney
    Honory. At a sub function.
    Still, I imagine the services are hopeful about her. At least she comes across as an advocate.