The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[StobieWan]

In other news, Type 45 is starting to go to sea with CESM:


First UK Type 45 at sea with Shaman CESM fit | Jane's 360


I think that's the first fit since the Type 22's went out of service? I could be wrong...

 

[Volkodav]

I can't help but wonder how many hulls could have been bought had the Type 26 program not been delayed for what appears to be purely political reasons?

Delays cost money through increasing the cost of overheads, i.e. just to keep the shipyards open unnecessary, operationally questionable ships had to be bought instead. Manning was cut and now has to be rebuilt, money was spent upgrading the Type 23s with the concept that much of the upgraded equipment would be pulled through to the new ships but now it appears that the Type 26 will receive almost totally new build systems.

Could it not be possible that had the project proceeded at a sensible rate that the first (or first couple of) Type 26 could already be in service and replacing Type 23s that would not have needed to be upgraded for the same or less money? Or even that all thirteen hulls could have been ordered on this more sensible schedule, for less than the cost of the Type 26 plus Type 31 that are now seen to be concurrent, multi yard programs, rather than a single yard continuous build. Maybe even the Type 26 could followed directly on from the Type 45 and carrier blocks, preventing the need for the OPV build and Type 23 modernisation, replace the Type 23 and then been followed by the Type 31 which would replace the in service OPVs and other ancillaries filling combatant roles due to reduced hull numbers al for the same money and none of the waste?

 

[Volkodav]

I went to the Babcocks Type 31e workshop today, they showed everyone there new contender which is the Arrowhead 140, replacing the Arrowhead 120, the 140 is the Iver Huitfeldt design. After going to both workshops it’s pretty clear to me which vessel should be picked, based on what’s being offered and the consortiums doing to offering.

Also got to go on a yard tour, Prince of Wales looks massive, very impressive, they should build another one.

I saw the Arrowhead 140 news the other day and it looks good.

It almost seems like the RAN is looking to return to the old structure of Destroyers, ASW Frigates and GP Sloops as seen with the Counties, Leanders and Tribals of the 60s, and the Type 42, Type 22 and Type 21 of the 70s.

 

[SpazSinbad]

 

[swerve]

... money was spent upgrading the Type 23s with the concept that much of the upgraded equipment would be pulled through to the new ships but now it appears that the Type 26 will receive almost totally new build systems. ...

Can you expand on that, please? AFAIK the Type 26 is still scheduled to received TASS, bow sonars, radars, SAMs & their launchers from upgraded T23s.

 

[Volkodav]

Can you expand on that, please? AFAIK the Type 26 is still scheduled to received TASS, bow sonars, radars, SAMs & their launchers from upgraded T23s.

My understanding is the mod has determined there won't be time to remove and refurbish the systems in time to install on the new hulls without retiring Type 23s early. Can't recall where I read it but I think this was determined at around the time it was decided to build Type 31 concurrently with later Type 26.

 

[StobieWan]

Can you expand on that, please? AFAIK the Type 26 is still scheduled to received TASS, bow sonars, radars, SAMs & their launchers from upgraded T23s.

The initial purchase for long lead items does include three new sets of everything for the lead ships - can't remember where I saw the link but I'll see if I can dig it out.

I don't think that's an intention to new build everything, more an acknowledgement that they'll have to build at least a few 26 to release some of the older type 23's for decommissioning

 

[Volkodav]

The initial purchase for long lead items does include three new sets of everything for the lead ships - can't remember where I saw the link but I'll see if I can dig it out.

I don't think that's an intention to new build everything, more an acknowledgement that they'll have to build at least a few 26 to release some of the older type 23's for decommissioning

Sounds like that could well be it and if it is the case probably demonstrates that they could have started the build earlier, cancelled three Type 23 upgrades and the OPVs and maybe, just maybe, been able to afford 10 or more Type 26 for the money they have and are having to spend for 8 plus the three upgrades and OPVs. Not so much hindsight but looking at how penny pinching has seen less being delivered, later, for a greater overall project cost.

 

[Meriv90]

One step forward, two steps back – delivering the Royal Navy’s new OPVs

As we reported in April, significant defects have been found aboard HMS Forth which was delivered to the RN in February. Initial assessments were that the problems would be remedied in a couple of weeks but this has not proved to be the case.

HMS Forth’s defects list has not expanded beyond what was originally reported; sheared bolt heads, failed marine fixings and the electrical system. However, the investigation and agreeing on the rectifications by all parties took much longer to complete than initially expected.

The RN is down to just one active OPV in UK waters right now and there is some speculation HMS Tyne could be re-activated.

There is no spare crew available for HMS Tyne so it is unlikely the RN will reactivate her in the near future.

BAES have been embarrassed by this episode, the OPVs are, after all, relatively simple vessels and have proved a very expensive way of sustaining Clyde shipbuilding.

 

[ngatimozart]

One step forward, two steps back – delivering the Royal Navy’s new OPVs

We expect posters to comment upon posts rather than just doing a straight cut and paste.

 

[Meriv90]

I wanted to post it on the RAN topic and ask how errors track record from the three different SEA5000 contenders influence the decision. (I posted a Fincantieri one also)

I didnt post there because I saw yhe reaction to my connational post that had the clear purpose of showing that the RN dont have enough hulls to escort a mission to SCS meanwhile Italy was the one reaching the hull "threshold" mentioned by another user.

So I divided the post in two to not incur on the chance of it being considered OT.

Now that I know that I must comment I wont make the same mistake twice.

Regards

Meriv.

 

[StobieWan]

I wanted to post it on the RAN topic and ask how errors track record from the three different SEA5000 contenders influence the decision. (I posted a Fincantieri one also)

I didnt post there because I saw yhe reaction to my connational post that had the clear purpose of showing that the RN dont have enough hulls to escort a mission to SCS meanwhile Italy was the one reaching the hull "threshold" mentioned by another user.

So I divided the post in two to not incur on the chance of it being considered OT.

Now that I know that I must comment I wont make the same mistake twice.

Regards

Meriv.

If the RN needed enough escorts to go to the South China Sea, they'll find them - the availability or otherwise of OPV's isn't relevant.

I suspect it'd be a joint venture in any event - the US is stretched for carrier resources right now so in order to encourage an RN presence and take some strain off their taskings, I'd not be in the least bit surprised to see escorts from either the US, Japan or Australia made available.

We've got a fairly large and capable carrier, that will act as a centre of gravity for coalitions I'm sure.

 

[40 deg south]

UDT 2018: Concerns over depth of UK ASW capability - NWI - Naval Warfare - Shephard Media

Shephard media reporting concerns about the UK's ASW capability. In summary, nine P-8s not be enough, and surface fleet may lack ASW capability due to reduced number of T26s planned.

 

[swerve]

But the number of ASW Type 26s hasn't been reduced. The plan was to build eight ASW T26, with a towed sonar, & five GP. We're now going to get T31 instead of the GP T26s, & still eight ASW T26.

 

[matt00773]

A fantastic result for UK naval engineering with the Type 26 decision from Australia. It seems the UK government as well as industry have been pursuing this deal rather intensely over the past several months.

Theresa May hails £20bn frigate deal as biggest naval defence contract for decade | HeraldScotland

The Prime Minister has been directly involved in making the case for the UK bid, including in bilateral talks with her Australian counterpart Malcolm Turnbull at Chequers earlier this year. Over the past 18 months Boris Johnson, the Foreign Secretary, Gavin Williamson, the Defence Secretary, and Liam Fox, the International Trade Secretary, have all visited Australia to extol the benefits of Britain’s world-class design, engineering and innovation.

“The sheer scale and nature of this contract puts the UK at the very forefront of maritime design and engineering and demonstrates what can be achieved by UK industry and Government working hand-in-hand,” declared Mrs May.

“We have always been clear that as we leave the EU we have an opportunity to build on our close relationships with allies like Australia. This deal is a perfect illustration that the Government is doing exactly that.

“And while this is an enormous boost for the UK economy, it will also cement our strategic partnership with one of our oldest and closest friends for decades to come,” she added.

 

[the concerned]

I take it that all type 26 frigates will have the same physical dimensions. If so at 8800tons full load that's a very big frigate. I do apologise for going over old ground but it still makes sense to me to look into making a air defence variant to replace the type 45. By the time the last current type 26 is built it must be in about 2030 so Hms Daring will be in excess of 20yrs old. Surely by ordering soon we would save money.

 

[Volkodav]

Exactly what I was thinking and post brexit a US/Swedish/Australian combat system may be a more acceptable way forward than joint euro programs.

 

[StevoJH]

HMS Daring Didn’t actually commission until 2009, so depending on how hard she got knocked around during first of class trials and defects she will only have 21 years of hard use in 2030. Young enough and current enough for a sale to Brazil, Chile or Poland to be attractive?

Don’t the City class have a proprietary BAe CMS? They may just further develop that to replace PAAMS though I assume the RN will stay with Aster unless they pay MDBA-UK to develop a replacement.

 

[Redlands18]

I take it that all type 26 frigates will have the same physical dimensions. If so at 8800tons full load that's a very big frigate. I do apologise for going over old ground but it still makes sense to me to look into making a air defence variant to replace the type 45. By the time the last current type 26 is built it must be in about 2030 so Hms Daring will be in excess of 20yrs old. Surely by ordering soon we would save money.

Under the continuous build program Australia is due to lay down the Hobart's replacement in 2038, a version of the Type 26 would certainly be given a look in(all going well with the program of course)

 

[spoz]

Possibly, but by the late 2030s there are likely to be other, more recent designs available, theoretically at least optimised for the then emergent threats. The T26 design will be something over 20 years old, depending on how you count, and might well not be competitive against the requirement set.