The Indonesian Army

[Ananda]

So, if I understand correctly, they want an Eastern-European design, it has to have wheels, it has to be an amphibious APC, and it has to have a rear door. They're basically backing themselves into a corner with these requirements.

Feanor..I think you summarize nicely on the Indonesian Marines tought. That's why in my opinion they still insist on BTR-4M and that 1st batch is to prove their concept.

Again..so far the tought is mostly on Marines side, the Army have different set of thinkin..which usualy come back to a Western influnce design..

 

[Ananda]

In the Indonesian Marine Corps, a BMP-3F-based DT-3F will never be considered as a replacement for the BTRs. It might be considered as a replacement for the LVT-7 though.

Tonnyc..I tought the Marines still want more LVT-7 ? Are they already giving up on the idea ?

Few years back, have a chances talk with middle level Marines officer (battalion commander level) that indicated the Marines like their LVT-7 and hoping Mindef to replace all their BTR-50 with latest version of LVT-7..Off course that talk conducted in previous admin era..thus the thinkin might be changing..

 

[tonnyc]

Tonnyc..I tought the Marines still want more LVT-7 ? Are they already giving up on the idea ?

Few years back, have a chances talk with middle level Marines officer (battalion commander level) that indicated the Marines like their LVT-7 and hoping Mindef to replace all their BTR-50 with latest version of LVT-7..Off course that talk conducted in previous admin era..thus the thinkin might be changing..

The modern version of LVT-7 is AAV7A1 and the only one still making them is South Korea. I don't know if the Indonesian Marine Corps gave up on the idea for good, but right now there is simply not enough money to buy the K-AAV7A1 from South Korea.

If the US or South Korea offers used ones cheap there might be interest, but so far I haven't heard of any such offer.

The talk about LVT-7 replacement is just speculation on my part. A new BT-3F is likely cheaper than a new KAAV7A1 after all. But truthfully I don't think the Marines have the funding to increase/upgrade/replace their LVT-7 fleet. Once the BTR-50 is replaced or at least partially replaced, maybe they can spare the money for tracked amphibious APC, but I don't think it will happen this year or next year.

 

[Feanor]

I think this is the Ukrainian bid for the BTR replacement contract. It's a BTR-4 with attachments to make it swim, and an unmanned machinegun turret. Personally I can't help but feel that a single PKT is a step backwards. A combined 12.7/7.62 RWS would have been in order, possibly with the option of mounting a belt fed grenade launcher, or ATGM tubes. This one feels undergunned.

http://andrei-bt.livejournal.com/437291.html

EDIT: Apparently the machinegun is not a RWS but just a normal pintle-mount. There's some speculation as to why, and it may be because the BTR-4 is only nominally amphibious, and this was done as a way of lightening the vehicle.

 

[Ananda]

https://youtu.be/Qei9v52FhiY

Well the video on the amphibious trial of BTR-4M, showing the it can do Amphibious operational with larger turret and gun on top. Personally I see the trial in reservoir, thus will have to be seen how it performs on Naval Amphibious operation on launching frm LPD to beach.

The picture frm defence blog showing that the btr-4m being send to be tested by Indonesian marrines, seems frm both light weight machine gun version, and larger 30mm turret version. Hopefully we can see information on the trial result within next few months.

 

[Ananda]

Frm defense studies blogspot..
DEFENSE STUDIES

1st batch of 5 BTR-4M for Indonesian Marines has arrived frm Ukraine. As mentioned in previous post, the wholle contract with option is for 55 BTR-4M. However it's depend on the result of the trial being confucted to this first 5.

The Ukraine put all effort to made BTR-4M on having more similarity with wesyern standard IFV rather than the propegeniator BTR-80. Whether this resulted to more ergonomics IFV but still retail all BTR-80 edge especially for amphibious operation remain to be seen.

The 5 vehicle come in 2 version, one version with 30mm turret (called parus turret), and other without any turret.

Add:
English vertion of same news frm Defence blog.
http://defence-blog.com/army/indone...armoured-personnel-carriers-from-ukraine.html

 

[Ananda]

Bakal Dibanderol Rp 50 M/Unit, Ini Kehebatan Medium Tank Made In

Frm Detik online..on first official moke-up for Pindad-FNSS Medium Tank..English version can also be seen from Jane's. The picture is frm detik online.

Indo Defence 2016: Modern Medium Weight Tank breaks cover | IHS Jane's 360

Based on detik, Pindad envisaged the Medium Tank will cost IDR 50bio-IDR60bio or slightly less than USD 5 mio to procured 'after' mass production capacity reached.
As Jane's put, this Medium Tank is not envisaged to directly faced modern MBT, but more to support mechanised battalions in facing other non-MBT armoured vehicles.

I haven't goes to Indodefence yet..on previous job..have some coleuges that have access to defense establishment thus can come to Indo Defence before public days. Now have to wait on public days, but since public days only one day in Saturday..will see if still have time to go there. But I believe many media and forum in here will have info and pictures on Indo defence.

Hopefully some indonesian members here that can come to Indo defence can add.

 

[Ananda]

Another pictures frm detik online, Tank Boat made by Lundin (north sea boat) and Pindad.
Begini Penampakan Antasena, Kapal Tank Buatan Pindad

Using Cockerill 105 HP Gun Turret (similar that plan to be used on Medium Tank project), this 18m boat design mostly for riverine and coastal operation. Some speculated this been used for coastal patrol against potential smuglers or infiltration..whille also csn conduct up river patrol in Papua or Kalimantan/Borneo.

 

[r0m8470]

Another pictures frm detik online, Tank Boat made by Lundin (north sea boat) and Pindad.

Using Cockerill 105 HP Gun Turret (similar that plan to be used on Medium Tank project), this 18m boat design mostly for riverine and coastal operation. Some speculated this been used for coastal patrol against potential smuglers or infiltration..whille also csn conduct up river patrol in Papua or Kalimantan/Borneo.

Wow .... IMO, this is a bizzare. What is the use case? I know the news release stated coastal patrol. Is it not more cost effective with conventional armament - auto cannons or gatling guns maybe? I don't see indirect fire needs for anti smuggling coastal ops. The only boat I recall mounting similar armament is the old North Korean large patrol boat (85mm gun, I believe).

Switching to different topic:
Seems like the army is quite serious in mechanizing their infantry battalions. We've seen Anoa purchases, now M-113, not to mention the Marder. Now we have the potential medium tanks. I wonder if they are developing combined arms operational doctrine with all these new gears. I hope they do. Still too many different platforms IMO.

Wheeled: Anoa, Badak, Tarantula, Salladin, Saracen, Ferret, V150 although not sure if the old British trio are still operational. With Indo Army, we never know.
Tracked: AMX13/VCI, Scorpion/Stormer, Leopard, Marder, M113

 

[Ananda]

Basically the Army do plan on standardise their Armoured Vehicle. Anoa is poist to be the jack of all trade by replacing old vehicles like Saracen, V150, Ferret..whille Badak is for replacing Saladin or Canon version of V150

For tracked, I believe AMX VCI, and M113 as APC is being used for another decade until the Army or Pindad can come out with proper standardise replacement for tracked APC..like Anoa did for Wheeled APC.

The Medium Tank in the end I believe will replace all AMX13 and Scorpion, since Leo 2 is new addition concept as MBT that TNI-AD did not have one before..so does Marder that poised more as IFV and not just APC. Something that Rheinmettal hope further cooperation with Pindad on upgrading Marder.
Rheinmetal bring their own version of upgraded Marder as Medium Tank..but if FNSS-Pindad cooperation for Medium Tank come to fruitfullness, Rheinmettal simply add another updated packages to enhance Marder to be more modern IFV.

In the end with TNI AD more in road to convert the infantry concept to mechenised ones..those old asset will still be in inventory at least for 5-10 years period until new replacement comes handy.

Pindad don't forgot in 4×4 also developed Komodo as their version of Humvee and collaborated with Thales Australia to build their own version of bushmaster (called Sanca)..Remembered TNI AD still do not have 4x4 or even 6x6 mine resistance vehicles..
When all replacement come to line..the asset will not be much varried..For Tarantulla..well it's one time deal that after Badak..will not be follow on..I believe.

As that Tank Boat..I have no comment since it's bit controversional concept for me too..

Add: Pictures from Jane's on Bushmaster based Sanca Mine resistance vehicle.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

https://youtu.be/Qei9v52FhiY

Well the video on the amphibious trial of BTR-4M, showing the it can do Amphibious operational with larger turret and gun on top. Personally I see the trial in reservoir, thus will have to be seen how it performs on Naval Amphibious operation on launching frm LPD to beach.

The picture frm defence blog showing that the btr-4m being send to be tested by Indonesian marrines, seems frm both light weight machine gun version, and larger 30mm turret version. Hopefully we can see information on the trial result within next few months.

Well, lets hope that TNI-AD will test the BTR-4M completely, we don't want anything like the big disappointment of the Polish KOBRA short range air defence system, from which I understand, after delivery it isn't able to shoot down any target drones, "because of Indonesia's tropical climate"...

 

[Ananda]

Rumours in internet and forum says the Marines personals that conducting the initial test is not impress with BTR-4M durability, reliability, and build quality.
I got impression that BT-3F will be in upper hand for replacing BTR-50. Plus frm Indodefence, Ria-Novosti already claim that Indonesia Marines in talk for 3rd batch of current version BTR-3F.

https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20161103/1480594022.html

Thus on commonality and logistical foot print..BT-3F as part of BTR-3 family should have benefit on that.

 

[Feanor]

Rumours in internet and forum says the Marines personals that conducting the initial test is not impress with BTR-4M durability, reliability, and build quality.
I got impression that BT-3F will be in upper hand for replacing BTR-50. Plus frm Indodefence, Ria-Novosti already claim that Indonesia Marines in talk for 3rd batch of current version BTR-3F.

https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20161103/1480594022.html

Thus on commonality and logistical foot print..BT-3F as part of BTR-3 family should have benefit on that.

BMP-3F.

The BTR-3 is a Ukrainian BTR-80 mod.

And it's honestly not surprising. Poland's MIC has a terrible reputation. Look at the Philippines and the fun they're having with Polish helos.

 

[Feanor]

Well, lets hope that TNI-AD will test the BTR-4M completely, we don't want anything like the big disappointment of the Polish KOBRA short range air defence system, from which I understand, after delivery it isn't able to shoot down any target drones, "because of Indonesia's tropical climate"...

Let's hope they toss the silly idea of buying those junkheaps on wheels entirely. It's not a terrible design, but the conditions at the plant are downright awful and the pay too low for anyone with motivation or a work ethic, to bother sticking around.

 

[Ananda]

Don't think they are planning to add that polish SHORAD system anymore. The Army frm what I gather quite dissapointed with the system. There are too much SHORAD system the Indonesian used know..compared to Soeharto era in the 80's and 90's where they are only have Rapier and SAAB RBS-70.

Seems there are indication that they will in the future focus back only to SAAB RBS-70NG, MBDA Mistral, and BAE Starstreek. Pindad now already in cooperation with SAAB to upgrade existing RBS-70 and already have cooperation with mbda for mistral.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

BMP-3F.

The BTR-3 is a Ukrainian BTR-80 mod.

And it's honestly not surprising. Poland's MIC has a terrible reputation. Look at the Philippines and the fun they're having with Polish helos.

I think Ananda also mmeans BMP-3F. According to BT-3F, Varian Angkut Pasukan BMP-3F yang Dibuat atas Masukan Marinir TNI AL - Majalah Angkasa Online the Korps Marinir are actually wanting more LVTP-7s, but those things are not anymore in production, right? We will see, maybe the BTR-4 is cheaper, but in my opinion the BT-3F will be a better choice to replace the BTR-50, even the manufacturer is still testing the prototype...

 

[Feanor]

I think Ananda also mmeans BMP-3F. According to BT-3F, Varian Angkut Pasukan BMP-3F yang Dibuat atas Masukan Marinir TNI AL - Majalah Angkasa Online the Korps Marinir are actually wanting more LVTP-7s, but those things are not anymore in production, right? We will see, maybe the BTR-4 is cheaper, but in my opinion the BT-3F will be a better choice to replace the BTR-50, even the manufacturer is still testing the prototype...

There's not much to test. It's a BMP-3 chassis with minimal modification, and the primary weapons module replaced with a non-penetrating RCWS with a machinegun. It's the same chassis used for one of the special variants on the BMP-3 chassis, except all the special purpose gear removed. In my opinion Indonesia needs to cut down on the diversity of weapon systems in service, and this is an excellent opportunity to do so on a proven and fairly reliable modern chassis, with a full range of vehicles, from light tank, to IFV, APC, ATGM carrier, etc.

 

[Ananda]

Ha,ha..yes should be BMP-3F and not BTR-3F..my bad..

Still on commonality..Indonesian Defense Procurement I believe got 'Indian' sickness eventough in much smaller scale. Just read that Boeing still think their Super Hornet still got chances..when India already got Rafale..

In much smaller scale this happen to Indonesia..the policy of ToT is some way similar effect to 'made in india' policy...which makes foreign manufacturers now fastly try to find local partners for some ToT jobs..to get their product accepted..

Thus the procurement will be mostly based to which partner and how much local job scope it can provide..and not just what the TNI really plan or how the logistical footprint will be (related to what already in existing Inventory).

 

[r0m8470]

IndoDefence Consolidated Contract List

I wonder if anyone has a complete list of procurement contracts completed and/or signed during IndoDefence? There are news/rumors about this MoU, and that cooperation agreement (whatever that means), but it would be nice to have a list of real contracts that actually involved an act of procuring something.

 

[tonnyc]

There were no actual contracts signed during Indodefence.

The joint development of the Bushmaster was technically signed at the end of October, not at Indo Defense.

There were multiple people talking about another ASTROS procurement. An Indonesian Army delegation did meet with the Avibras delegation behind closed doors, so I believe the talk, but no actual contract has been signed. Probably still hashing out the details.

PAL of Indonesia signed a Memorandum of Understanding with Boutwell of Malaysia regarding the MRSS, but that MoU, not a contract.

That's all.