The Indonesian Army

[Ananda]

Pictures from defense-studies blogspot.

Pindad few days ago test fire it's Badak 90mm Armoured Vehicle. The gun from Belgian CMI..with turret was the result of join collaboration between Pindad and CMI..

This Badak seems being intended to replace Cadilac V150 and Alvis Saracen..

 

[Ananda]

Pindad new attack riffle called so far as SSX (images from detik on line). It's differed from current range of attack riffle (SS1 and SS2) on using 7.62 mm rather then 5.56 mm. Thus increase the effective range to 800 m from 300-400 m of SS2 5.56 mm.

As like SS2, this SSX also designed solely by Pindad using combine technical design layout from several attack riffles in the market.

My opinion..seems it's designed for Platoon sniper team..worked along side regular infantry man using SS1 and SS2.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Pindad new attack riffle called so far as SSX (images from detik on line). It's differed from current range of attack riffle (SS1 and SS2) on using 7.62 mm rather then 5.56 mm. Thus increase the effective range to 800 m from 300-400 m of SS2 5.56 mm.

As like SS2, this SSX also designed solely by Pindad using combine technical design layout from several attack riffles in the market.

My opinion..seems it's designed for Platoon sniper team..worked along side regular infantry man using SS1 and SS2.

Thats looks really cool....
"My opinion..seems it's designed for Platoon sniper team..worked along side regular infantry man using SS1 and SS2." --> Like the Dragunov isn't it? I think youre right.
Thanks for sharing!

 

[tombongchi]

I am a new member, could you give me your instruction how to post a artical?
Thank you

 

[Ananda]

You need at least to have 10 or 20 post before you can put attachment..you can see on sticky rule side..mind you the rules in this forum does not encourage people to just put or quote articles without put some genuine comment or opinion thought on the article.

 

[DavidDCM]

Last week, 50 Badak vehicles were officially ordered by the Indonesian vice president. That number should vaguely suffice to replace the remaining Saladin armoured cars, as Ananda already mentioned 2 weeks ago. But going by the recent expansion of the cavalry forces as well as the Indonesian tendency to keep old vehicles running, I just as much aspect the Saladins to keep on serving a little longer, maybe in a reduced number, in some second-tier units. Complete retirement, I believe it when I see it.

However, I would love to see more detailed photography of the Badak, especially its underside, suspension, and mechanical intestines. From what little I could grasp, it appears quite different from the Anoa, I even think it has very little to do with the Anoa/Renault VAB at all in terms of mechanics and may be based on something else entirely.

Hopefully they allow the media into the factory again while they make the Badak like they regularly did during the Anoa production.

 

[Ananda]

Indonesia receives first eight of 61 Leopard 2 RIs | IHS Jane's 360

Frm Jane's..1st batch of 8 FRM Total 61 Leopard 2 RI being delivered to Indonesia. Those 61 Leopard 2 RI and 42 Leopard 2A4 will equiped 2 Armoured Batalion of Kostrad (TNI-AD Strategic Command) and and 2 Cavalry Training center in West Java and East Java.
(Seems I got wrong number on previous post before of total MBT of 64 Leo 2 RI and 54 Leo 2A4..Right number of total Leo 2 MBT in the package is 61 Leo2 RI and 42 Leo2A4.)

Each batalion consists of 3 companies (13 Tanks each) of composition 1 company Leopard 2A4 and 2 companies Leopard 2RI. So far no plan on estabilishing Leopard 2 company or batalion outside Java. Those Kostrad Armoured batalion used to be equiped by Scorpion 90mm, which now being transfered to Military district command in Borneo.

Edit:

Additional pictures frm Angkasa Online..Just like David mentioned in his previous post, the Leo 2RI not utilise all Leo 2 Revolution packages. More to AMAP (Advanced Modular Armour Protection) packages..turret APU as back up power unit for turret movement without using main engine..Full electric turret drive..and night sensors and panoramic scope..

Speculation come out that further upgrade will be done domestically by Pindad with Rheinmetall cooperation including potential to upgrade 42 Leo 2A4 to Leo 2RI standard.

 

[Ananda]

Pictures already moved around in local forum for sometime on acquisition of ex Belgium M109 A4 SP 155mm. The Army only confirmed that they are only checking on possibilities.

However Indonesian Army already received more than 50 M113 frm belgium, which being said part of M109 deal, just like Marder 1A3 IFV which being delivered as part of Leo 2 deal.

The pictures attached frm Army source show an Army official stand in front of M109 clearly in Belgium, with Indonesia flag on it and M113 in background which many of those M113 just landed in Jakarta's port few days ago.

 

[ADMk2]

I am a new member, could you give me your instruction how to post a artical?
Thank you

New members aren't allowed to post articles immediately.

Forum policy requires a minimum of 50 'quality' posts before that ability is granted.

 

[Ananda]

https://youtu.be/fI6lahv_nRA

Youtube link to video frm local TV station covering arrival of 36 M113 ex Belgium batallion 412 mechanize infantry.

The video also interview ceo of local company that acts as vendor on those M113 procurement. Seems according to her total 92 already being delivered to Indonesian army so far.
Whille my self is questioning the policy for inclusion of APC that realtively came frm same age as TNI's main APC AMX13 VCI..however considering :

1. TNI AD strategy to enlange Mechanise Infantry doctrine and transform some of its infantry unit to mechanise infantry unit,

2. Reports frm various sources including frm IISS on the condition of TNI's AMX VCI which reported only 60-80 still operation frm previous several hundreds,

3. The deal that Belgium gave on those M113 that already been upgraded..thus in better conditions relative to TNI's AMX VCI..which overall considered more economical then upgrading existing AMX13 VCI,


Perhaps it is still acceptable on taking those M113 and enhance the mechanise infantry concept in TNI. Frm what I gather M113, Marder, Anoa and what's left on AMX VCI that still can be upgraded/retrofitted will be the substance for TNI AD mechanise infantry doctrine at least up to 2020+.

 

[Ananda]

3 Armoured Track Vehicle for TNI Mechanise Infantry

As mentioned in previous post and further before frm various poster in this thread, TNI-AD will continue enhances its doctrine for Mechanised Infantry. Besides using PINDAD made Anoa, the Army will rellied on 3 'cold war' APC/IFV at least up to 2020+ to equiped its mechanised Infantry.

Those are AMX-VCI upgraded/retrofitted by PINDAD, Ex Bundeswher Marder A3, and Ex Belgium Army M-113. Attach the pictures of them frm various sources like defense-studies blog, arc web site, and local forums.

 

[Feanor]

As mentioned in previous post and further before frm various poster in this thread, TNI-AD will continue enhances its doctrine for Mechanised Infantry. Besides using PINDAD made Anoa, the Army will rellied on 3 'cold war' APC/IFV at least up to 2020+ to equiped its mechanised Infantry.

Those are AMX-VCI upgraded/retrofitted by PINDAD, Ex Bundeswher Marder A3, and Ex Belgium Army M-113. Attach the pictures of them frm various sources like defense-studies blog, arc web site, and local forums.

It looks like Russia is trying to throw their hat in the ring, with a BMP-3 derived APC called DT-3F. It's likely they're mainly after the BTR-50 replacement contract, but you never know.

 

[Ananda]

It looks like Russia is trying to throw their hat in the ring, with a BMP-3 derived APC called DT-3F. It's likely they're mainly after the BTR-50 replacement contract, but you never know.

So far they seems targeting BTR-50 replacement..BMP-3F being gradually replacing PT-76..then it's logical for DT-3F also targeting BTR-50 replacement..Just like PT-76 and BTR-50 which used common based platform.

Frm what I heard and read, Ukraine BTR-4M is being used to replaced BTR-80..the Marines only got one platoon of that..but seems they are attracted by it's capabilities..but so far due to Ukraine supply problem don't heard that they will take all 54 BTR-4M option asside the 1st batch of 5..

The Marines not happy with their AMX-10P despites they got around 70-100 of that (frm both version 90mm light tanks and APC, the exact number varries)..that's the biggest investment that Soeharto give the Marines during his reign..Soeharto not really cared much on the marines as special forces and decided to invest more on Army Special forces. Ironically that Soeharto big investment seems not working well with what Marines need on Amphibious operations..thus created strong impresions on Marines decision makers that Russian Equipment more robust for their need (altough they also impressed with LVT7)

For that the Marines has more inclined using Russian or ex Eastern Block originated equipment..While the Army more inclined using Western Equipment..
Thus for me so far..don't see Russian equipment will come to Indonesian Army Mechanised Infantry..For Marines's Mechanised Infantry..that's another story..

For that Indonesian Marines asside Russian BMP2, BMP3F will used potensial more BTR4M and DT-3F for replacing AMX10P, BTR80, and BMP50. With supply problem of BTR4M..then the potential for DT-3F to replaced all 3 vehicles above are quite good..With in my opinion only further additional LVT7 that DT-3F has to watch for Indonedian Marines contracts..

Well that's so far that I see...but again with current administration..or with Indonesian Defense projects in general..anything can happen..

 

[Feanor]

Frm what I heard and read, Ukraine BTR-4M is being used to replaced BTR-80..the Marines only got one platoon of that..but seems they are attracted by it's capabilities..but so far due to Ukraine supply problem don't heard that they will take all 54 BTR-4M option asside the 1st batch of 5..

Strange. So far the BTR-4 has a shit reputation. It tanked in the Iraq contract due to garbage quality, and attempts to deceive the customer instead of repairing or replacing the defective vehicles. It also tanked in Kazakhstan where the trial batch of vehicles showed up with manufacturing defects. Given what they had to do to even make it amphibious, I'm very surprised that Indonesian marines see it as a BTR-80 replacement. It's not significantly better protected. It has known manufacturing quality issues. And spares and additional vehicles depend on Ukraine, which is far from a safe bet. Is it the combat module that makes it such an attractive option? I mean, there's nothing inherently wrong with the design, but it's a problem vehicle, and with a hefty price tag (the Iraqis iirc paid 1.4 mil USD per).

 

[Ananda]

Indonesian Marines BTR-4M

Attached are 2 pictures of Indonesian BTR-4M from defense-studies blogspot. According to them, by end of August 1st batch (of 4 or 5) already shipped to Indonesia. I still not has confirmation whether it is already or when will be in Indonesian soil.

Local media and forum talk that it will be different from standard BTR-4 that it has German engine, US transmission, and many western part, and capabilities to perform Naval amphibious operation. This according some sources is to reduce dependence on Ukraine due to 'doubtfull' Ukraine supply chain realibilities. Some even say there's 'unconfirmed' report that Ukraine trade agents in Indonesia lobbying with Pindad to produce locally in order to smoothen the overall deal on 55 vehicles, by reducing 'doubtfull' on Ukraine sources of production.

Then again it's more likely that 1st batch is ordered to test overal capabilities of BTR4M under Indonesian Marines environment..then after that we will see whether they will go to take the other 50 optional vehicles as next batches.

Add:
Personally after seeing Thailand experience with Ukraine BTR3 and Oplot..if the 1st batch of BTR4M proved reliable..it's better to buy the design..and produce locally...afterall if what the local sources say is true, the Indonesian variant will used extensive non Ukraine parts anyway.

 

[Feanor]

Attached are 2 pictures of Indonesian BTR-4M from defense-studies blogspot. According to them, by end of August 1st batch (of 4 or 5) already shipped to Indonesia. I still not has confirmation whether it is already or when will be in Indonesian soil.

Local media and forum talk that it will be different from standard BTR-4 that it has German engine, US transmission, and many western part, and capabilities to perform Naval amphibious operation. This according some sources is to reduce dependence on Ukraine due to 'doubtfull' Ukraine supply chain realibilities. Some even say there's 'unconfirmed' report that Ukraine trade agents in Indonesia lobbying with Pindad to produce locally in order to smoothen the overall deal on 55 vehicles, by reducing 'doubtfull' on Ukraine sources of production.

Then again it's more likely that 1st batch is ordered to test overal capabilities of BTR4M under Indonesian Marines environment..then after that we will see whether they will go to take the other 50 optional vehicles as next batches.

Add:
Personally after seeing Thailand experience with Ukraine BTR3 and Oplot..if the 1st batch of BTR4M proved reliable..it's better to buy the design..and produce locally...afterall if what the local sources say is true, the Indonesian variant will used extensive non Ukraine parts anyway.

On the subject of BTR-4 vehicles in the Ukrainian army. The 92nd Mech Bde received 16 vehicles out of which 4 today are considered "fully functional". Issues with the transmission, suspension, and even low quality tires. The source says that the vehicles received by the National Guard are much better, with French thermals and Germany engines, while their vehicles have no thermals and crappy engines. The National Guard of course received ex-Iraqi BTR-4Es. And, if you recall, those vehicles were returned by Iraq as defective and low quality. In other words the current BTR-4 production run is even worse then the vehicles Iraq rejected a few years back.

This is why I'm very skeptical of the Indonesian decision to buy the BTR-4. There have to be better options.

 

[tonnyc]

This is why I'm very skeptical of the Indonesian decision to buy the BTR-4. There have to be better options.

The Indonesian Navy agreed to buy five BTR-4 back in January 2014. This was before Maidan. Before Crimea. It's possible and even likely that the BTR-4 they evaluated then was in good working order. The order got delayed due to events, but was never canceled. This is the resumption of that order.

If you look at the order as a trial run, where Indonesia risks a few million dollars to explore an alternative supplier for their combat vehicles, then things make sense.

 

[Feanor]

The Indonesian Navy agreed to buy five BTR-4 back in January 2014. This was before Maidan. Before Crimea. It's possible and even likely that the BTR-4 they evaluated then was in good working order. The order got delayed due to events, but was never canceled. This is the resumption of that order.

If you look at the order as a trial run, where Indonesia risks a few million dollars to explore an alternative supplier for their combat vehicles, then things make sense.

I understand the initial buy, I'm just very surprised that they're still considering adopting the type. It seems rather un-intelligent to have so many different types of vehicles in general, and the BTR-4 in particular is a bad choice, in my opinion. If they go for the DT-3F BMP-3 based APC, they should make that their one and only APC for the marines. And if they want more firepower, then start using the BMP-3s as IFVs instead of light tanks. Interestingly enough there is even a real light tank offering on the BMP-3 chassis, with the Sprut-SD combat compartment on the BMP-3 chassis, bringing the firepower of a real MBT on the same base.

 

[tonnyc]

I understand the initial buy, I'm just very surprised that they're still considering adopting the type. It seems rather un-intelligent to have so many different types of vehicles in general, and the BTR-4 in particular is a bad choice, in my opinion. If they go for the DT-3F BMP-3 based APC, they should make that their one and only APC for the marines. And if they want more firepower, then start using the BMP-3s as IFVs instead of light tanks. Interestingly enough there is even a real light tank offering on the BMP-3 chassis, with the Sprut-SD combat compartment on the BMP-3 chassis, bringing the firepower of a real MBT on the same base.

BMP-3 is a tracked vehicle. BTR-4 is a wheeled vehicle. If you talk to an Indonesian Armed Forces guy he will insist that in no possible way the two can do the same role. Thus it is inconceivable that a BMP-3 chassis could possibly be used instead of a wheeled vehicle. Simply impossible. Unthinkable. Anyone who suggests it clearly has no idea what he is talking about. Now, I think your idea is sensible, but obviously I know nothing of military matters.

So why not BTR-80 then? Supposedly the Indonesian Marine Corps insists on rear door.

In the Indonesian Marine Corps, a BMP-3F-based BT-3F will never be considered as a replacement for the BTRs. It might be considered as a replacement for the LVT-7 though. If Russia wants to bag the BTR replacement deal they should offer the BTR-87, but as far as I know Russia has not offered that model to Indonesia.

 

[Feanor]

BMP-3 is a tracked vehicle. BTR-4 is a wheeled vehicle. If you talk to an Indonesian Armed Forces guy he will insist that in no possible way the two can do the same role. Thus it is inconceivable that a BMP-3 chassis could possibly be used instead of a wheeled vehicle. Simply impossible. Unthinkable. Anyone who suggests it clearly has no idea what he is talking about. Now, I think your idea is sensible, but obviously I know nothing of military matters.

So why not BTR-80 then? Supposedly the Indonesian Marine Corps insists on rear door.

In the Indonesian Marine Corps, a BMP-3F-based DT-3F will never be considered as a replacement for the BTRs. It might be considered as a replacement for the LVT-7 though. If Russia wants to bag the BTR replacement deal they should offer the BTR-87, but as far as I know Russia has not offered that model to Indonesia.

The BTR-87 might just be a concept design or a prototype. It was briefly shown once and hasn't really resurfaced. I'm not sure how things are negotiated between Russia and Indonesia, but I'm 100% sure that if Indonesia is willing to foot the bill for completing the project, or willing to order a large enough batch to justify the project, AMZ will be more then happy to finish it and produce it. All of that having been said, a marines version of the Bumerang was being tested earlier this year, with the tell-tale exhausts. So, given that things in Indonesia often move slow, maybe they could but into the Bumerang program, and be its first export customer.

Personally I don't see the reason to have so many platforms in a force so small. Even Russia unified pretty much all their Marines on the BTR-80/82 chassis. (though that pesky Kamchatka regiment still has MT-LBs because the terrain there is just brutal) And they have 4 brigades, 1 regiment, and 2 separate btlns of Marines. In other words, a total of ~20 000 personnel. I understand they got their LVTs for free, but at that point I'd say it's not worth it even for free.

So, if I understand correctly, they want an Eastern-European design, it has to have wheels, it has to be an amphibious APC, and it has to have a rear door. They're basically backing themselves into a corner with these requirements.