The Indian Tejas

[apache66]

Oh man. This is starting to get tedious....


So you are NOT going to see a combat capable LCA for the next 6 years !! . You will be seeing Block 2 JF-17s entering into service by then !!

Production version of LCA 'Tejas' takes to skies
Bangalore | Monday, Jun 16 2008 IST



The much-awaited maiden flight of LSP-2 (Limited Series Production) of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft 'Tejas' was successfully carried out at the HAL airport here.

The state-of-the-art aircraft, which was flown by National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) test pilot Wg Cdr N Tiwari, took off majestically and flew for 30 minutes at 1.1 Mach crossing 1,200 kmph. As had been the practice, the maiden flight of this aircraft was chased by another Tejas aircraft PV3, piloted by Wg Cdr RR Tyagi.

Speaking to UNI here, Mr L S Subramanium, Chief of LCA Division of HAL, the public sector aircraft manufacturer, said it was a key phase of the jet fighter. So far, the prototypes had completed 900 flights.

A HAL release here said that eventhough the aircraft was ready for its maiden flight last week itself, the flight could not take off because of the pre-monsoon weather prevailing in Bangalore.

The flight was conducted by NFTC of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) from its telemetry station, with Wg Cdr M Prabhu, flight test engineer, as the test director. Today's maiden flight of LSP-2 was significant on several accounts. This is the second limited series production aircraft that rolled out of the LSP hangar of HAL. It is the first aircraft powered by the new GE404-IN20 engine and also had a new ejection seat version, the Martin Baker Mk 16LG, the release said.

http://news.webindia123.com/news/Articles/India/20080616/975899.html

Much to the dissapointment to some of its 'detractors' the Tejas continues to progress.

Note this is the first flight of the 'production version' of the Tejas with the GE404-IN20 installed.

My advice would be to stop making such bold and sweeping statements.

Just wait and watch.......

Posting this again as my earlier post did not get posted.

 

[kams]

Production version of LCA 'Tejas' takes to skies

Today's maiden flight of LSP-2 was significant on several accounts. This is the second limited series production aircraft that rolled out of the LSP hangar of HAL. It is the first aircraft powered by the new GE404-IN20 engine and also had a new ejection seat version, the Martin Baker Mk 16LG, the release said.

It would be interesting to see the picture of the same.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

LCA needs new engine to be worthy of combat


New Delhi, June 5: The home-grown Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which is set to be inducted in 2011, will not be able to fly with a full-weapon load and will also need a new engine—instead of the Kaveri engine—to meet the minimum requirements for fighter aircraft drawn up by the Indian Air Force (IAF). To accommodate these modifications, the planes will also need to be redesigned.
In what could be a deathblow to the indigenous fighter programme, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has conceded that the first lot of planes to enter service will not only carry a limited load of weapons but will also have a restricted ‘angle of attack’, making them unsuitable for aerial combat.

The primary reason for the problem is the lower thrust provided by the GE 404 engine powering the aircraft. While plans to develop a newer engine are under discussion, there is no scope for improvement at least for the first lot of 40 aircraft, of which 20 have already been ordered by the IAF. “There is no way that the first 40 aircraft will have any other engine than the GE 404. The engine gives a power of 80-85 Kilo Newton while the IAF requires them to have a capability of 95-100 Kilo Newton,” a top MoD source said, adding that the current thrust provided by the engine limits the angle of attack — a measure of the maneouverability of the aircraft—to 17 degrees against the IAF’s minimum requirement of 21 degrees. This makes the fighter unsuitable for aerial combat, especially given that neighbouring countries already possess more agile fighter planes.

With the IAF not willing to introduce any more such ‘limited’ fighters, plans are afoot to give the LCA a new engine with greater thrust. However, this would also require a complete redesign. “To put in a new engine, like the GE 414, with this capability, the existing structure of the aircraft will have to be modified. This would need design changes that will take another 3-4 years,” the source said.

However, India is yet to decide whether to go in for a completely imported engine or jointly develop an engine with a leading international player. With the Kaveri engine making little headway, India is planning to rope in manufacturers like General Electric (US), Snecma (France), Rolls Royce (UK) and NPO Saturn (Russia) for the project.

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/319117.html

This report says it all !! LCA is not combat capable !!

Now you may argue with Indian MoD all you want. It will not change the facts.

As of today, LCA's characteristics are along the same lines as of basic trainers.

 

[vetrival]

LCA needs new engine to be worthy of combat


New Delhi, June 5: The home-grown Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which is set to be inducted in 2011, will not be able to fly with a full-weapon load and will also need a new engine—instead of the Kaveri engine—to meet the minimum requirements for fighter aircraft drawn up by the Indian Air Force (IAF). To accommodate these modifications, the planes will also need to be redesigned.
In what could be a deathblow to the indigenous fighter programme, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has conceded that the first lot of planes to enter service will not only carry a limited load of weapons but will also have a restricted ‘angle of attack’, making them unsuitable for aerial combat.

The primary reason for the problem is the lower thrust provided by the GE 404 engine powering the aircraft. While plans to develop a newer engine are under discussion, there is no scope for improvement at least for the first lot of 40 aircraft, of which 20 have already been ordered by the IAF. “There is no way that the first 40 aircraft will have any other engine than the GE 404. The engine gives a power of 80-85 Kilo Newton while the IAF requires them to have a capability of 95-100 Kilo Newton,” a top MoD source said, adding that the current thrust provided by the engine limits the angle of attack — a measure of the maneouverability of the aircraft—to 17 degrees against the IAF’s minimum requirement of 21 degrees. This makes the fighter unsuitable for aerial combat, especially given that neighbouring countries already possess more agile fighter planes.

With the IAF not willing to introduce any more such ‘limited’ fighters, plans are afoot to give the LCA a new engine with greater thrust. However, this would also require a complete redesign. “To put in a new engine, like the GE 414, with this capability, the existing structure of the aircraft will have to be modified. This would need design changes that will take another 3-4 years,” the source said.

However, India is yet to decide whether to go in for a completely imported engine or jointly develop an engine with a leading international player. With the Kaveri engine making little headway, India is planning to rope in manufacturers like General Electric (US), Snecma (France), Rolls Royce (UK) and NPO Saturn (Russia) for the project.

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/319117.html

This report says it all !! LCA is not combat capable !!

Now you may argue with Indian MoD all you want. It will not change the facts.

As of today, LCA's characteristics are along the same lines as of basic trainers.

Can you give me a link to any official report(like a direct report form the Indian MoD or anything posted on the ADA or HAL websites) stating the above facts. The last release by the MoD regarding engine trouble with the LCA was made when the F404-GE-F2J3 engine was integrated with the LCA(this led to the redesign issue and the problems with the AoA and STR, ITR) the F404-GE-IN20 engine has already addressed most of these problems except for range and payload thus even the LSP version of the LCA is definately not a trainer.The LCA's definitive version rolls out in 2010-2012 and will be using the Kaveri engine and an AESA radar, the range and payload problems are only beng faced by the 40 LSP aircrafts while the AoA, STR, ITR problems have already been addressed in the LSP version of the aircraft itself(though arming the LCA with A2G armaments will again cause the same problems till the kaveri engine rolls out in 2009)



Besides the information you are using is outdated, for the latest information refer to the official ADA and HAL websites or perhaps wikipedia.org, I don't blame you for that even many newspapers are still buisy highlighting the problems which the LCA faced 3 to 4 years ago(which have been fixed).The report you are refering to mentions the problems the LCA would face if the F404-GE-F2J3 engine were to be used, as we both know the said engine is not being used instead the uprated and upgraded F404-GE-IN20 engine is being used, that pretty much makes most of the facts stated by you null and void.



You have not commented on the JF-17s and the J-10s comparison to trainers nor have you given any proof of your so called "correspondence" with the ADA's staff.Your posts will only hold any value if you can support them with proof(links to credible sites supporting your claims for eg:wikipedia).​

 

[apache66]

LCA as of today is incapable of combat. First 40 are to be prodcued in 6 years and all with GE F404 IN20 engines. See the MoD report.

So you are NOT going to see a combat capable LCA for the next 6 years !! . You will be seeing Block 2 JF-17s entering into service by then !!

This report says it all !! LCA is not combat capable !!

Now you may argue with Indian MoD all you want. It will not change the facts.

As of today, LCA's characteristics are along the same lines as of basic trainers.

While it certainly is unfortunate that the Tejas will be inducted with 'imported' engine/radar undermining its 'indigenoous' claim a careful observer would note that it is being fielded with the "best technology available to India" in the international market, namely the GE404-IN20 engine and the Elta 2032 radar unlike the JF17 which is being inducted with a "hand me down" chinese radar and a choice for an alternative radar is still awaited.

On another note I would like to point you to this interesting interview with the IAF Chief stating...

"....two squadrons of the LCA in the IOC version will be inducted in 2010-11. After that, the IAF plan is to have six LCA squadrons by the end of the 13th Defence Plan."

http://www.forceindia.net/interview7.asp

A 'wise' reader would note that the IAF are fully supporting the Tejas and are 'satisfied' with its potential enabling to confirm induction of two squadrons in its present form and plan for further inductions of the Tejas.

With all the delays and hiccups the Tejas program has faced, what can be deduced is the IAF is showing their confidence in the Tejas not as a 'trainer' but as an important 'combat platform' and they fully understand the Tejas' potential in this regard.

Another important aspect of the Tejas is that it is under the critical eye of the media, where, it does gets its share of 'brickbats' which is actually good for its development. The criticism from the media only adds more pressure on the Tejas program to bring it upto the 'internationally accepted standards' for such an important combat platform unlike for example the JF17 which has been developed in secrecy away from the media eye and is presently being inducted by our 'good neighbours'.

All said and done all indicators point to the Tejas turning out to be quite a "mean little fighter' and considering its a first development (without the experience/knowledge/infrastructure/R&D base a technology intensive program like this requires) for India.... it surely is 'good first attempt'

Please note the above is my personal observation and is the last I have to say in this regard.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

LEFT]​

Give me one link from 2008 where it says :

AoA has surpassed 17 degrees.
STR is more then 17 degrees
ITR is more then 20 degrees
Radar has been installed and LCA is flying with the radar.

Wikipedia is not even close to being a credible source.

I dont want to turn this LCA thread into LCA Vs JF/17 thread. Against the rules of this forum. But for comparison sakes here is a picture. Let us see when LCA will be able to do this ?

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/4029/c3e4b3b3439d9e9e5e2c3bcyc1.jpg
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/1042/burstformationmt4xd1.jpg

Second picture is the same manouvre but no colors.

If you know anything about AoA then these pictures are for you.

and I dont not need to prove anything to you. Feel free to use the following link to make " innocent inquiries". There is directory as well on the left column.

http://www.ada.gov.in/Activities/organisation/organisation.html​

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

The first 40 limited series production aircraft are to be built in a time span of 2 to 3 years(it's not 6 years, the limited series production has already started last year with HAL determining to roll out 20 to 15 aircrafts per annum from 2008 onwards) by 2010-2012 the definitive version of the LCA will be rollling out(with the Kaveri engine and the AESA radar) besides on 25 April 2007, the first Limited Series Production LCA (LSP-1) made its first flight and has already entered active service with the IAF(refer to

How many times do I have to prove you wrong ?

You will not get first 40 before 2015.

Here is a breakdown for you :

First 20 by 2011.
Other 20 by 2015 ( If ordered).

http://news.webindia123.com/news/Articles/India/20080616/975849.html

 

[kams]

I dont want to turn this LCA thread into LCA Vs JF/17 thread. Against the rules of this forum. But for comparison sakes here is a picture. Let us see when LCA will be able to do this ?



Second picture is the same manouvre but no colors.

If you know anything about AoA then these pictures are for you.

Before talking about Block 2 JF-17, get the block 1 with a2g capability inducted.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH5OhQKXwL0&feature=related]video 1[/ame] these are TD-1 and 2, at 30th sec and onwards

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swwN0zasq9g&feature=related]video 2[/ame] in the very begining and around 25th sec

What a troll!

Nitesh did post a video earlier.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

these are TD-1 and 2, at 30th sec and onwards

in the very begining and around 25th sec

What a troll!

Nitesh did post a video earlier.

Pictures were meant to show the AoA !!

In the bomb burst formation of JF-17s, one can clearly see JF17s doing greater then 20 degree AoA. Nowhere in your the links you posted LCA is doing an AoA of that calibre!! All I see is them flying in a straight direction most of the time.

 

[kams]

Pictures were meant to show the AoA !!

In the bomb burst formation of JF-17s, one can clearly see JF17s doing greater then 20 degree AoA. Nowhere in your the links you posted LCA is doing an AoA of that calibre!! All I see is them flying in a straight direction most of the time.

Yeah you measured the Angle of attack by photo and video. I am sure you can do that..ROFLMAO nfloorl: Please do post the video of JF-17 always rolling..
Now as new reports are gospel for you, here is the kicker...

The LCA has already flown at speeds up to 1.4 mach at an altitude of 15 km. The ``angle of attack'' of 20 degrees and manoeuvre load of 4 per cent G (indicating the resistance to gravity) have been achieved on the three prototype aircraft.

Report from 2005

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

Yeah you measured the Angle of attack by photo and video. I am sure you can do that..ROFLMAO nfloorl: Please do post the video of JF-17 always rolling..
Now as new reports are gospel for you, here is the kicker...



Report from 2005

Old news now.

That was in 2005 and in clean configuration. Once they added the fuel tanks and a missile not to mention the extra two ton weight, It is doing 17 degrees now as per the latest news, more they add, more worst it will get.

Show me one article from 2008 where it says AoA achieved is greater then 20 degrees.

Do check the date of Post number 303 article.

 

[kams]

Old news now.

That was in 2005 and in clean configuration. Once they added the fuel tanks and a missile not to mention the extra two ton weight, It is doing 17 degrees now as per the latest news, more they add, more worst it will get.

Show me one article from 2008 where it says AoA achieved is greater then 20 degrees.

Do check the date of Post number 303 article.

Oh yeah, that's old news, and is possible because there are no tanks or missiles. The picture of JF-17 you posted shows full tank and missile load I presume.

I am still waiting for a JF-17 video doing only rolls and acrobatics with full missile and drop tanks. (BTW do you guys always perform combat maneuver with drop tanks still attached? Interesting)

The 20 degree angle of attack was attained with heaviest airframes of all LCA..TD-1 and TD-2, it was in PV-1 major weight reduction was achieved by use of composites and engine was 404-FJ23, now LSP -2 has IN20 with higer thrust.

As to latest figures..

From ILA 2008,

lca infoboard

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

As to latest figures..

From ILA 2008,

lca infoboard

Your link does not counter the link in post number 303.

 

[kams]

Your link does not counter the link in post number 303.

While 303 may be your gospel, the link I posted, disproves your claim of 203 ton over weight, my videos disprove your idiotic claim that LCA can't perform rolls, and my other news report disproved that your Gospel is not true (oh I have the official press release to, not only newspaper reports). All you have done is dancing around the issue.

BTW you are yet to prove that JF-17 can do a Aoa of 20 degree or more with full load and Tanks...

and when did you say JF-17 will have A2G capability?

(Remember I didn't bring up JF-17 story)

Now I have a very interesting story to post about Indian army written by a Pakistani, now where shall I post it? ...IA thread is locked isn't it. Hmmmm come to think of it the article also mentions Pakistani Army..

 

[gf0012-aust]

This Post is going on holiday for a while. Everyone needs to settle down while it's locked.