The Indian Tejas

[Aliph Ahmed]

A very interesting link for those who think that a powerfull engine can take care of all aerodynamic issues of LCA

http://www.flyingthingz.com/

There are 10s of other features required as well by an aircraft other then having a powerfull engine !!

Like WP2000 said : Even a brick can fly like a bird with a powerfull engine !! :

Do watch the videos to get enlightened.

 

[niteshkjain]

http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=448905

5th generation fighter aircraft will fly in march next: Adviser

Bangalore, June 14: The country's 'ambitious' fifth generation fighter aircraft will fly during March next, the information to this effect was given by M Natarajan, Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister on Saturday.

Efforts were on to identify a Russian company to provide weapons and electronic warfare systems, Natarajan, who is also the secretary, Defence Research and Development Organisation, said while participating in the inauguration of the Defence avionics research establishment's new campus here.

Conceptualisation studies have begun on Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) he said.

"We are in the process of evolving a design for MCA", Natarajan said.

LCA has great potential notwithstanding problems, he said and added they were being attended to.

DRDO director R P Ramalingam, in his welcome address, said it would be Field-testing the fourth generation electronic warfare systems in about 18 months for Mig 27 and LCA.

There was also a possibility of extending the tests to fifth generation fighter aircraft, he said.

Bureau Report

 

[niteshkjain]

http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=448905

5th generation fighter aircraft will fly in march next: Adviser

Bangalore, June 14: The country's 'ambitious' fifth generation fighter aircraft will fly during March next, the information to this effect was given by M Natarajan, Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister on Saturday.

Efforts were on to identify a Russian company to provide weapons and electronic warfare systems, Natarajan, who is also the secretary, Defence Research and Development Organisation, said while participating in the inauguration of the Defence avionics research establishment's new campus here.

Conceptualisation studies have begun on Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) he said.

"We are in the process of evolving a design for MCA", Natarajan said.

LCA has great potential notwithstanding problems, he said and added they were being attended to.

DRDO director R P Ramalingam, in his welcome address, said it would be Field-testing the fourth generation electronic warfare systems in about 18 months for Mig 27 and LCA.

There was also a possibility of extending the tests to fifth generation fighter aircraft, he said.

Bureau Report

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

LCA has great potential notwithstanding problems, he said and added they were being attended to.

DRDO director R P Ramalingam, in his welcome address, said it would be Field-testing the fourth generation electronic warfare systems in about 18 months for Mig 27 and LCA.

Bureau Report

Good luck to DRDO attending those problems of LCA because they will certainly need it and lots of it too.

Niteshkjain and Thery, I am still waiting for my reply.

 

[Thery]

LCA was always a bad and a limited design !! It started off in 1983 and pretty much a failed copy of Mirage 2000. and mind you that comparing the LCA to the Mirage 2000 is like comparing a trout to an eagle in the sky !

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t20/Aliph_Ahmed/lca20m2k.jpg

DRDO messed up in every field when it comes to LCA :

LCA has design problems which will be fixed.
LCA has Radar problems which will be fixed.
LCA has engine problems which will be fixed.
LCA has FBW problems which will be fixed.
25 years and the saga continues...

What LCA has turned out to be shouldnt be a surprise to anyone. I am amazed that DRDO didnt forsee all this coming !!

Oh well, as things stand now, first (40) forty LCAs will be incapable of doing combat and are in the league of basic trainer Mushak and Medium trainr K8.

and yes, it is a very serious aerodynamic issue and not only an engine issue as you like to belive :

I'll give you a better idea. Pluck the figures in for LCA and you will get a very good idea where LCA stands :

A jet aircrafts' characteristics

wing span = 21.5 m
wing area = 43.7 m^2
fuel mass = 3,617 Kg
total mass = 13,777 Kg
engine tsfc = 0.45 NN/hr
zero-L/D coefficient = 0.016
Oswald efficiency factor = 0.834

Calculate: (at SEA level)

1, max L/D ratio.
2, L/D at max speed.
3, max range/endurance.
4, max speeds.

If you cant then just say so. I will stop further commenting on your posts.

If you can then I will take this debate much further.

I’m not engineer so I do not know the detail about formulas and how they work. But from what I read that Zero Lift Drag Coefficient, Lift Induced Drag Coefficient and Oswald's Efficiency Factor are all important factor to calculate aircraft Drag Coefficient and Lifting Line.

Poor subsonic efficiency and low lifting line are the weakness of all delta wing design. Therefore, almost all delta wing aircraft have limited wing load ability and combat range. But if the engine is fuel efficient and powerful enough then these problems could be overcome. Moreover if the engine allows the aircraft to SC then low subsonic efficiency will not be a problem since delta wing has great super sonic performance.

As for the tailless delta wing takeoff/landing, controllability problem and its maneuverability is really depend on weight allocation, vortex generator and how much RSS it able to capitalize. Since there have no detail information about all those areas, it is very hard to judge LCA’s performance. And canard is not the only method to generate vortex, such as X-32 and F-16XL do not use canard to achieve that.

Furthermore the number you give is not even LCA’s at least I never know that LCA wingspan is 21.5m long. So I’m not sure what are you tried to say?

DRDO also realize the limitation of Delta wing and are try to solve it. LCA’s wing design is very unusual and complex. I do not have the detail and/or official information about what is the reason behind its design and how well it performs. But from what I read people believe that the current LCA design is try to improve its takeoff and landing performance at the cost of its cruising efficiency.

Moreover, LCA’s head design is quite large, although this will increase zero-L/D but that will also allow it to use better radar and have better BVR performance, so once again that DRDO trading one performance for another. Are these trade off justified is mainly base what is the position of LCA in IAF and/or IN, and its use.

Once again I never said LCA at its current phase is perfect, but I think it is also not fair to judge it by just base on couple comments. If you have more detail information and deeper knowledge it is my pleasure to learn more about LCA from you.

I really like to know how exactly does LCA’s wing work especially on what kind vortex generator does it use? I also like to know how much RSS does LCA able to achieve and what is its benefit?

 

[tphuang]

Good luck to DRDO attending those problems of LCA because they will certainly need it and lots of it too.

Niteshkjain and Thery, I am still waiting for my reply.

you need to be very careful. It's clear that you are trying to provoke Indians on this forum. The longer this drags, there will be more people here feeling provoked.

If all you are going to do is telling Indians that DRDO/LCA is a failure, then we are going to have problems.

 

[Thery]

Good luck to DRDO attending those problems of LCA because they will certainly need it and lots of it too.

Niteshkjain and Thery, I am still waiting for my reply.

You seem quite determine to trash the whole LCA design and DRDO effort on it, and what you said till now are just base on internet news and comments. I hope that you have hard evidence to your claim. Such as when you accuse that LCA has limited AoA angle are cause by bad design, could you please give your reason what cause it and why it is the fault of the DRDO and/or ADA, instead of keep quoting same comments over and over again.

This kind action really makes people questioning your objectiveness, especially when you keep quoting one comment over and over again, but at the same time ignore and trash all other comments and news just because they are not aligning with your position.

I really hope that your comments are not cloud by your nationality and personal interest. I myself am neither an Indian nor a Pakistani, but I still feel that your objectiveness is questionable.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

I’m not engineer so I do not know the detail about formulas and how they work. But from what I read that Zero Lift Drag Coefficient, Lift Induced Drag Coefficient and Oswald's Efficiency Factor are all important factor to calculate aircraft Drag Coefficient and Lifting Line.

Poor subsonic efficiency and low lifting line are the weakness of all delta wing design. Therefore, almost all delta wing aircraft have limited wing load ability and combat range. But if the engine is fuel efficient and powerful enough then these problems could be overcome. Moreover if the engine allows the aircraft to SC then low subsonic efficiency will not be a problem since delta wing has great super sonic performance.

As for the tailless delta wing takeoff/landing, controllability problem and its maneuverability is really depend on weight allocation, vortex generator and how much RSS it able to capitalize. Since there have no detail information about all those areas, it is very hard to judge LCA’s performance. And canard is not the only method to generate vortex, such as X-32 and F-16XL do not use canard to achieve that.

Furthermore the number you give is not even LCA’s at least I never know that LCA wingspan is 21.5m long. So I’m not sure what are you tried to say?

DRDO also realize the limitation of Delta wing and are try to solve it. LCA’s wing design is very unusual and complex. I do not have the detail and/or official information about what is the reason behind its design and how well it performs. But from what I read people believe that the current LCA design is try to improve its takeoff and landing performance at the cost of its cruising efficiency.

Moreover, LCA’s head design is quite large, although this will increase zero-L/D but that will also allow it to use better radar and have better BVR performance, so once again that DRDO trading one performance for another. Are these trade off justified is mainly base what is the position of LCA in IAF and/or IN, and its use.

Once again I never said LCA at its current phase is perfect, but I think it is also not fair to judge it by just base on couple comments. If you have more detail information and deeper knowledge it is my pleasure to learn more about LCA from you.

I really like to know how exactly does LCA’s wing work especially on what kind vortex generator does it use? I also like to know how much RSS does LCA able to achieve and what is its benefit?

You were suppose to pluck in the figures for LCA and not use those jet's figures !!

You cannot argue by pure theories conjured up by intuition or imagination, and to present those theories with absolutely no technical proof but you’re word of mouth ! If you want to back your claims with credibility, answering the question was you‘re golden opportunity.

If you don’t understand the basic of aerodynamic then unfortunately your post holds no weight.


and.....

The Mirage 2000 can do Mach 2.2 can pull +14/-9 G’s,
at 9 G it has a max AOA of 28 degrees, and instantaneous turn rate (ITR) is 24°/s.

The LCA can do Mach 1.4, pull 4.5 G’s, I think it can only go in a straight line so…STR and ITR are out of the question at the moment !!

You are more then welcome to forward my comments and analysis to DRDO and even they can not refute what I am saying !!

 

[Rish]

http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=448905

5th generation fighter aircraft will fly in march next: Adviser

Bangalore, June 14: The country's 'ambitious' fifth generation fighter aircraft will fly during March next, the information to this effect was given by M Natarajan, Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister on Saturday.

Efforts were on to identify a Russian company to provide weapons and electronic warfare systems, Natarajan, who is also the secretary, Defence Research and Development Organisation, said while participating in the inauguration of the Defence avionics research establishment's new campus here.

Conceptualisation studies have begun on Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) he said.

"We are in the process of evolving a design for MCA", Natarajan said.

LCA has great potential notwithstanding problems, he said and added they were being attended to.

DRDO director R P Ramalingam, in his welcome address, said it would be Field-testing the fourth generation electronic warfare systems in about 18 months for Mig 27 and LCA.

There was also a possibility of extending the tests to fifth generation fighter aircraft, he said.

Bureau Report

So is the aircraft flying next march going to be a mock up or an actual prototype or..something else?

Also, what strategy is the Indian air force going to employ in the future? Low-end aircraft= LCA + 126 MRCA and High-end= Su-30 MKI? Are there going to be any fifth-generation fighters to compliment either the high-end or low-end roles for india?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Good luck to DRDO attending those problems of LCA because they will certainly need it and lots of it too.

You need to reconsider how you engage in debate in this forum. There is a very clear view that your style of debate is skating on the borderline of being flame bait material.

Change your approach. Consider this a 1st Warning.

 

[Rish]

http://www.industryweek.com/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=13587

Feb. 12, 2007 -- As it seeks to strengthen its military manufacturing prowess, India plans to design and develop a medium-combat aircraft at a cost of up to $2.27 billion , a senior official said Feb. 9.

The Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) is in talks with European, U.S. and Russian companies interested in collaborating on the project, said M. Natarajan, the head of research and development at the agency.

The medium-combat aircraft, or MCA, will be a twin-engine plane with stealth capabilities and may take 15 years to develop, Natarajan told reporters at the Bangalore air show. "We see the potential to build 200 to 300 MCAs," said Natarajan who is also scientific advisor to the defense minister.

The light combat aircraft, christened Tejas (Radiance), is billed as the world's smallest, light-weight, multi-role combat plane. The government is yet to approve the project but Natarajan said it is expected to win the go-ahead given the needs of the air force. Finances won't impede the project, which would cost between 60 billion and 100 billion rupees (US$1.36 billion to 2.27 billion) as much as a lack of a sufficient number of skilled designers and engineers, he said.

Bright engineers and designers are being lured by higher salaries offered by private companies in the booming information technology (IT) industry, said Natarajan. "Given the suction effect of IT, you have a problem of a substantial differential in salaries," he said.

The DRDO, with 5,000 scientists, is at the forefront of Indian efforts to strengthen the domestic defense industry and supplement military purchases from overseas. The agency, formed in 1958, has a network of more than 50 laboratories engaged in developing systems such as aeronautics, armaments and combat vehicles.

The medium-combat aircraft will come on top of a light version already developed by the DRDO and built by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

Copyright Agence France-Presse, 2007

 

[wp2000]

http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=448905

5th generation fighter aircraft will fly in march next: Adviser

Bangalore, June 14: The country's 'ambitious' fifth generation fighter aircraft will fly during March next, the information to this effect was given by M Natarajan, Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister on Saturday.

...

I seriously believe that most of the frustration suffered by Indian military fans are caused by these kind of statements, especially when they are from the mouth of the horse.

In some cases I noticed that Indian military fans are being slammed as not understanding the difficulties in developing a moder fighter. But I do think it's really the other way around, it's the professionals who don't know the difficulties and misleading the general public.

 

[niteshkjain]

You seem quite determine to trash the whole LCA design and DRDO effort on it, and what you said till now are just base on internet news and comments. I hope that you have hard evidence to your claim. Such as when you accuse that LCA has limited AoA angle are cause by bad design, could you please give your reason what cause it and why it is the fault of the DRDO and/or ADA, instead of keep quoting same comments over and over again.

This kind action really makes people questioning your objectiveness, especially when you keep quoting one comment over and over again, but at the same time ignore and trash all other comments and news just because they are not aligning with your position.

I really hope that your comments are not cloud by your nationality and personal interest. I myself am neither an Indian nor a Pakistani, but I still feel that your objectiveness is questionable.

Hey this is for you Thery and all other people who all loosing the nerves. I personally feel that LCA program has been jeopardized because of lack of proper management, and IAF trying to make an MRCA out of it. Check this vedio, so may be some nerves might sooth
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...&q=tejas,+LCA&ei=SklUSJKGMISM_QHZn5TjDg&hl=en

 

[niteshkjain]

So is the aircraft flying next march going to be a mock up or an actual prototype or..something else?

Also, what strategy is the Indian air force going to employ in the future? Low-end aircraft= LCA + 126 MRCA and High-end= Su-30 MKI? Are there going to be any fifth-generation fighters to compliment either the high-end or low-end roles for india?

Well there is no official data is available on MCA so dont really know what exactly it will be. And regarding the strategy, you are bang on target except, it will be more like this

Low End= LCA (Primary role, Airspace Defense)
Medium End = MRCA (Primary Role, Bombing and occasional Air Dominance)
High End = SU 30 MKI (Primary Role: Air Dominance, so MRCA can come and do bombing or occasional bombing/Air Defense )

Indian MCA is primarily design to augment the PAK-FA. PAK-FA being at high end and MCA being at lower end.

 

[Rish]

Well there is no official data is available on MCA so dont really know what exactly it will be. And regarding the strategy, you are bang on target except, it will be more like this

Low End= LCA (Primary role, Airspace Defense)
Medium End = MRCA (Primary Role, Bombing and occasional Air Dominance)
High End = SU 30 MKI (Primary Role: Air Dominance, so MRCA can come and do bombing or occasional bombing/Air Defense )

Indian MCA is primarily design to augment the PAK-FA. PAK-FA being at high end and MCA being at lower end.

I thought the PAK-FA was supposed to be an air superiority fighter and the MCA a penetration/strike fighter.

 

[niteshkjain]

I thought the PAK-FA was supposed to be an air superiority fighter and the MCA a penetration/strike fighter.

Well, the answer for this will be that both of the fighters are on design stage and there specs are not out in open. So let us wait and watch for the specs to come out in open, and then talk

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

I have decided to keep it strictly technical from now onwards. I will also post my correspondence with ADA designers/developers under a different name(omitting the names offcourse ) soon.

LCA

While flying at Mch 0.53 (EAS) at a 3 km altitude (K = 0.861).
weighing 12,000 kg (122.58 KN).
makes a sustained banked turn through 90o in 15 s.
The wing loading is (221.4 Kg) 2.171 N/m2.

Ve = 651km/hr = 180.88 m/s, Vt = 180.88 /(k) =210m/s
*=2x(pi)/60=0.105 Rads/s
sqrt(n^2-1)=*V/g=2.249 n=2.46
L = 2.25 W = 2.171 x 122.58 = 266.12 kN
(266.12118/2.25) = (118.27608/122.58) = 0.964888888
Cos-1 (.964888888) = 15.22
Cos-1 (L/W) = 15.22
Sustained bank angle = 15.22 degrees

hence STR= 15 degrees at Mach 0.5 altitude 3 Km.

notations:
g = gravitational accel=9.80065
V = velocity = 210m/s
L = lift = 2.25
W = wing loading = 2.171 KN
kn = kilo Newton SI unit

The wing loding of the LCA is quite low for most aircrafts of any kind, which has a direct result on the turn angle, angle of attack !!

STR = 15 degrees only and ITR = 20 degrees only.

When cmparing the STR of LCA with any aircraft, you will notice that it is lnot only lower then most fighters but close to trainer aircrafts !!

Following are the two interesting links :

http://nal-ir.nal.res.in/2523/
http://www.aiaa.org/content.cfm?pageid=406&gTable=japaperimportPre97&gID=44605

 

[gf0012-aust]

I seriously believe that most of the frustration suffered by Indian military fans are caused by these kind of statements, especially when they are from the mouth of the horse.

Generally I will sit out of these asia minor regional debates and let the other mods manage them, but I'd have to say that the commentary from detractors and protractors leaves a lot to be desired.

At a comprehension level, and at an attachment to reality level, some of them are way way off the mark.

It's the out of orbit comments which demonstrate little comprehension of mission type, profile, technology and capability that cause some concern

In some cases I noticed that Indian military fans are being slammed as not understanding the difficulties in developing a moder fighter. But I do think it's really the other way around, it's the professionals who don't know the difficulties and misleading the general public.

See above. If you're going to make such charges against members of the professionals group, then you seriously need to give an example so that we can comprehend what aggrieves you in particular. Fundamentally, my above comment stands. If you think that people who work in either the military or have practical experience in this industry are being unfair - then you should probably realise that quite a few of us have not passed comment for personal reasons.

As stated, some of the technical claims, some of the platform profile claims are just nonsensical.

The maxim, "if in doubt, say nought" applies.

 

[wp2000]

Generally I will sit out of these asia minor regional debates and let the other mods manage them, but I'd have to say that the commentary from detractors and protractors leaves a lot to be desired.

At a comprehension level, and at an attachment to reality level, some of them are way way off the mark.

It's the out of orbit comments which demonstrate little comprehension of mission type, profile, technology and capability that cause some concern





See above. If you're going to make such charges against members of the professionals group, then you seriously need to give an example so that we can comprehend what aggrieves you in particular. Fundamentally, my above comment stands. If you think that people who work in either the military or have practical experience in this industry are being unfair - then you should probably realise that quite a few of us have not passed comment for personal reasons.

As stated, some of the technical claims, some of the platform profile claims are just nonsensical.

The maxim, "if in doubt, say nought" applies.

No problem. In fact my above comments should be better put to another place;It'st just that 5th Gen fighter next march thing suddenly reminded me of some other things, completely unrelated to this forum.

No worries mate.

 

[kams]

I seriously believe that most of the frustration suffered by Indian military fans are caused by these kind of statements, especially when they are from the mouth of the horse.

In some cases I noticed that Indian military fans are being slammed as not understanding the difficulties in developing a moder fighter. But I do think it's really the other way around, it's the professionals who don't know the difficulties and misleading the general public.

He was talking about Indo-Russian 5th gen getting air-borne by next year. He clearly mentions that MCA is still in design phase.

edited..no point in posting anything coherent in this thread.