Taiwan and the PRC

[Zechariah]

Article 4
It is recognised that all treaties, conventions, and agreements concluded before 9 December 1941 between Japan and China have become null and void as a consequence of the war.
(1952 Treaty of Taipei)

Article 2
(b) Japan renounces all right, title and claim to Formosa and the Pescadores.
(1951 Treaty of San Francisco)

True enough. I have to thank you for reminding me of this. I remember hearing somewhere about the PRC bringing up a document like this that was later nullified. I remember learning in high school (albeit Taiwanese high school) that it was a non-legally binding treaty.

With a little help from Google I found the wiki article about it which I'm not allowed to post but you can find it by typing in "treaty of Taipei"

It pretty much says that the treaty was nullified on both ends.

Besides which, that is a treaty between the ROC (Taiwan) and Japan.

Japan gave Formosa back to the ROC which still controls it today. The PRC doesn't come up being as they weren't in the picture at this point.

Some scholars have argued that Formosa still technically belongs to the USA. An interesting point that just goes to show it's not as clear cut as this.

 

[Zechariah]

Yes,you know its ceded.that is mean you have no choice.If you know more about chinese history,you can find the north of China is controled by Russia,the east of China is controled by German,the south of China is controled by France,the west of China is controled by other counties.in 1900's.Its not the China have no interest in Taiwan,is the only part can be ceded.

I take it you mean these parts of china were controlled by Europeans. And yes I did know that, and there is no need to insult me. You can thank Sun Yat Sen, (Sun Zhong Shan) FOUNDER OF THE ROC, for getting china out of that mess. And yes i know the communists claim him too, but that's just plain silly.
But what does that have to do with Taiwan?

 

[hallo84]

I take it you mean these parts of china were controlled by Europeans.

Land Lease. Not direct ownership.

 

[csubaicai]

I take it you mean these parts of china were controlled by Europeans. And yes I did know that, and there is no need to insult me. You can thank Sun Yat Sen, (Sun Zhong Shan) FOUNDER OF THE ROC, for getting china out of that mess. And yes i know the communists claim him too, but that's just plain silly.
But what does that have to do with Taiwan?

If you can't find the tight connection between mainland and Taiwan in so many history events,You'd better find a way to become more intelligence before
you say that the communists is just plain silly.

 

[Zechariah]

If you can't find the tight connection between mainland and Taiwan in so many history events,I'd better find a way to become more intelligence before
you say that the communists is just plain silly.

Yes, you better had find a way to become more intellegent if you don't think the CCP is just plain silly.

Anyway this whole thing is way off topic...

 

[Grand Danois]

Yes,you know its ceded.that is mean you have no choice.If you know more about chinese history,you can find the north of China is controled by Russia,the east of China is controled by German,the south of China is controled by France,the west of China is controled by other counties.in 1900's.Its not the China have no interest in Taiwan,is the only part can be ceded.

But they do have a choice now. Or is another entity trying to coerce them?

 

[xien]

True enough. I have to thank you for reminding me of this. I remember hearing somewhere about the PRC bringing up a document like this that was later nullified. I remember learning in high school (albeit Taiwanese high school) that it was a non-legally binding treaty.

With a little help from Google I found the wiki article about it which I'm not allowed to post but you can find it by typing in "treaty of Taipei"

It pretty much says that the treaty was nullified on both ends.

Besides which, that is a treaty between the ROC (Taiwan) and Japan.

Japan gave Formosa back to the ROC which still controls it today. The PRC doesn't come up being as they weren't in the picture at this point.

Some scholars have argued that Formosa still technically belongs to the USA. An interesting point that just goes to show it's not as clear cut as this.

Out of the arguement about PRC and ROC,whenever where you go,you are still a chinese people.why jews founded Israel.they know a uniform nation is the importantest.

 

[xien]

Yes, you better had find a way to become more intellegent if you don't think the CCP is just plain silly.

Anyway this whole thing is way off topic...

OK,I am not a CCP,Even if you know more about the history,you can find out that the strong empire's perdition is begining from divide itself.

 

[xien]

But they do have a choice now. Or is another entity trying to coerce them?

It is the problem of politics and economy.We talk about strategy here,you must know the opposition between the Mainland and Taiwan is benefit for other entities.

 

[csubaicai]

Yes, you better had find a way to become more intellegent if you don't think the CCP is just plain silly.

Anyway this whole thing is way off topic...

Frankly,I am sorry to your words,you actually failed to show us your intelligence,which is indispensable when we are discussing a complex issue.In fact,You have noticed something but you don't care,on the contrary,what you did was merely insulting CCP,I think it is not a sapiential behavior.
By the way,the situation of the strait has changed a lot after the election of 'president',I believe that the result of the election show us the fact that not only the residents of mainland but also the majority of the island actually are eager to a steady and peaceful strait,so that the independence has been pushed away in the nearly futher.

 

[csubaicai]

But they do have a choice now. Or is another entity trying to coerce them?

Taiwan now is a part of China,so the choice should be made by the people both side of the strait,no one could deprive of the election tickets in our hands.

 

[Grand Danois]

Taiwan now is a part of China,so the choice should be made by the people both side of the strait,no one could deprive of the election tickets in our hands.

What if Taiwan, the people of that island, does not want to merge with the mainland?

Is it not their (or your?) right to choose? Or is there a threat if the "right" choice is not made?

 

[csubaicai]

What if Taiwan, the people of that island, does not want to merge with the mainland?

Is it not their (or your?) right to choose? Or is there a threat if the "right" choice is not made?

First of all,The island is not any Taiwanese private property,the whole Chinese people together have the island's ownership.In China's long history,territorial integrity is always a fundamental basis of chinese national thinking and a fundamental basis of the governors.We deemed every inch of our territory especially including the island as the treasure descended from our ancestors.No country in nowadays will accept any independent trend in her own land.I think you and your goverment(I mean US people and US goverment) also have the same idea.

 

[Grand Danois]

First of all,The island is not any Taiwanese private property,the whole Chinese people together have the island's ownership.In China's long history,territorial integrity is always a fundamental basis of chinese national thinking and a fundamental basis of the governors.We deemed every inch of our territory especially including the island as the treasure descended from our ancestors.No country in nowadays will accept any independent trend in her own land.I think you and your goverment(I mean US people and US goverment) also have the same idea.

I'm not American. And I and my government have no problem with dependencies wanting to secede. It is not an issue with the mainland of my country, as there are no secessionism.

If the Taiwanese don't share that view, then that basis is not that fundamental, is it? Or are they not Chinese? And does not those that live there decide what they want to do?

It seems there is some coercion in the picture, is there not?

 

[radiosilence]

What if Taiwan, the people of that island, does not want to merge with the mainland?

Is it not their (or your?) right to choose? Or is there a threat if the "right" choice is not made?

Do you advocate the same for others around the world who are in similar situation as Taiwan?

 

[Grand Danois]

Do you advocate the same for others around the world who are in similar situation as Taiwan?

It has to be context based. Nothing is black & white. But generally, yes. I have to make this caveat, as I have no clue as to where you're taking this and what premise you have.

In this case they have been a seperate entity fpr decades - a viable and de facto nation. They are a Democracy. If they wish to merge with the mainland, they should do so. If they wish to be an independent country, by all means.

Should they not be able to make their choice without the threat of ballistic missiles?

 

[radiosilence]

It has to be context based. Nothing is black & white. But generally, yes. I have to make this caveat, as I have no clue as to where you're taking this and what premise you have.

In this case they have been a seperate entity fpr decades - a viable and de facto nation. They are a Democracy. If they wish to merge with the mainland, they should do so. If they wish to be an independent country, by all means.

In theory i agree with your premise but i think it would set a bad precedence. IMO, the status quo is working

Should they not be able to make their choice without the threat of ballistic missiles?

I don't think the threat of ballistic missiles is influencing them very much. They have elected a pro- independent president as well a president from the opposite spectrum whose postion is "Taiwan and mainland China are one country".

 

[Grand Danois]

In theory i agree with your premise but i think it would set a bad precedence. IMO, the status quo is working.

Think so too. There is the state of affairs in the real world and there is my personal opinion.

I don't think the threat of ballistic missiles is influencing them as much as you make it out to be. They have elected a pro- independent president as well a president whose postion is "Taiwan and mainland China are one country".

Yes, noted that too. That's why I note that an indivisible China may not be part of the mindset of Chinese.
But as you pointed out with the presidents, it is a very confusing and complex thing, what the Taiwanese actually want on the issue. I say, let them figure it out.

I just don't think the missiles are needed and why the mainland feel the need to threaten with them.

I was actually also reflecting on that possession is 95% of the claim. Taiwan has been conquered numerous times by various parties, changing hands when wars was lost. Now the Taiwanese has it.

That a country could base a claim on that a territory has been conquered by it at some point in history would also be a bad precedent.

Btw, wrt to the missiles.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080328/FOREIGN/914383504/1003

 

[csubaicai]

I'm not American. And I and my government have no problem with dependencies wanting to secede. It is not an issue with the mainland of my country, as there are no secessionism.

If the Taiwanese don't share that view, then that basis is not that fundamental, is it? Or are they not Chinese? And does not those that live there decide what they want to do?

It seems there is some coercion in the picture, is there not?

Congratulations,You and your country do not need to worry about secessionism which is bothering a lot of countries in the world such as Canada,Spain certainly including China,and I believe there is some day my country would solve the issue of strait in our own way,because the issue is my country's internal issue and we(the whole nation) have enough resolution,patience,wisdom and ability to overcome the problem in our own way,I think HongKong is a good template,isn't it?
However,I actually want to inform you that independence is supported merely by terribly minority of the residents in that island,this fact is doubtless clear and could be easily proved by many news published by Taiwan media,if you really care about the Taiwan.Moreover,in point of my view,those who want to own a independent country in the island are traitors of my country,they have lost their right of staying in my country,so they'd better leave the island which is a part of my country and look for a new place as soon as possible to restart their dream,if your country welcome those insects,I think that would be a preferable choice,right?

 

[csubaicai]

It has to be context based. Nothing is black & white. But generally, yes. I have to make this caveat, as I have no clue as to where you're taking this and what premise you have.

In this case they have been a seperate entity fpr decades - a viable and de facto nation. They are a Democracy. If they wish to merge with the mainland, they should do so. If they wish to be an independent country, by all means.

Should they not be able to make their choice without the threat of ballistic missiles?

The missiles prepared for the instance when the island would in fact turn to a seperate entity,but at this moment,the island belongs to China,you should read the consititution of the ROC,the people from western countries think much of the law,don't you?On the other hand,there are many evidence expressly tell us the fact that those insects who are dreaming to secede are terribly minority of the residents in the island,their conspiration is being resisted by most of the Taiwan people,and this is the most important reason that the PROC goverment seize the fires,the people both sides of the strait are Chinese,we care a lot about the lives,we are eager to a steady and peaceful situation,at the same time,we also insist the territorial integrity,without which our nation will fall into mess again.