Submarine Tactics

[KAPITAIN]

All what ive said is from the USN, when the lada amur class was built ths is where i quote from it was the second quietest submarine.

It obviously is not now (lada class started in 1997 and suspended) infact i too can think of many submarines that take ahead of lada.

Of corse the USN wont declassify submarine achostic data, but declassified information including the walker spy ring indicates that project 971 and its advancements are quieter than the 688i, even stated in janes and other defence reviews including norman friedman and norman polmar both international defence analysts working for the USN.

Russians long ago got over being excited about being as quiet as the 688i the SSN 21 only came to light in 1997 and now russia is playing catch up with the new generation submarines they are now trying to match virginia WHICH I MIGHT ADD THEY ARE ABOUT 7 YEARS BEHIND

Do you know how long it takes to find the sub classify it wash it threw your sonar computers you should , its not done in minuets.

The ambient noise of the sea masks many submarines achostic signature (if not all) making detection by broad band sonar near impossible that is why ew use Narrow band, and yes we can pick up submarines at 30 miles incredibly faint but you still can.


Scorpene, type 212, type 214, are all more modern submarines that the lada and all are quieter.

 

[gf0012-aust]

All what ive said is from the USN, when the lada amur class was built ths is where i quote from it was the second quietest submarine.

please don;t tell me that you're using Norman Polmar for data integrity claims here - he has as much credibility as Tom Clancy

It obviously is not now (lada class started in 1997 and suspended) infact i too can think of many submarines that take ahead of lada.

I was actually being cautious if not generous. There are actually a few more subs that are quieter, but its inapprop to comment

Of corse the USN wont declassify submarine achostic data,

Nobody release real data into the public domain. even the walker data is coloured.

but declassified information including the walker spy ring indicates that project 971 and its advancements are quieter than the 688i, even stated in janes and other defence reviews including norman friedman and norman polmar both international defence analysts working for the USN.

Polmar is an author. If you're talking his relevance within the community, then I can give you an example. I have not seen his data or his contributions in any UDT Conferences or Sub Warfare Conferences I've attended in the last 6 years.

Do you know how long it takes to find the sub classify it wash it threw your sonar computers you should , its not done in minuets.

actually, it can, and it does happen more than you suspect.

The ambient noise of the sea masks many submarines achostic signature (if not all) making detection by broad band sonar near impossible that is why ew use Narrow band, and yes we can pick up submarines at 30 miles incredibly faint but you still can.

Well, I'll just have to disagree with you here. There are other methods involved, but talking about the success of narrow bands is not one of them.

 

[KAPITAIN]

you have more experiance in sonar and achostics than that of I, i admit im a bit out of my depth my speciality is not that of sonar of achostics its just general parameters of submarines.

But there is a question i want to ask.

Do you use waterfall soanr display screens? on the collins class that is

 

[gf0012-aust]

Do you use waterfall soanr display screens? on the collins class that is

Actual internal systems are never discussed in detail in open forums. Nobody does it - in any navy.

 

[KAPITAIN]

Understood its understandable as well russian's are not so open either.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Understood its understandable as well russian's are not so open either.

Thats why countries invest in HUMINT, SIGINT, EW, ELINT, COMINT, sonar and arrays (plus a few other tidbits thrown in for good measure)!

 

[KAPITAIN]

Are there any book's on submarine tactic's of the cold war? be an intresting read to see whats what

 

[Rich]

Tom Clancy wrote one called "Submarine". But the best one was probably "Blind Mans Bluff". I have both and recomend each.

 

[KAPITAIN]

Thanks

 

[zoolander]

I heard the Sea Wolf is more quet than a early generation kilo

Is this true?

if it is dam i would not want to mess with that

 

[gf0012-aust]

I heard the Sea Wolf is more quet than a early generation kilo

Is this true?

if it is dam i would not want to mess with that

There are about 5-7 subs IMV quieter than a Kilo.

As for the Seawolf. In 2004 I attended the UDT in Hawai'i. CINCPAC made an open comment that both Seawolf and Virginia were quieter at 20+knots than a 688I at dockside.

That comment has now been printed in both Proceedings and the NSL journals.

 

[KAPITAIN]

Well for sure it is the quietest nuclear submarine, but in general conventional submarines are alot quieter.

What many dont see is that Kilo is now what 20 years old and the oldest of the SSN 21's are not even half that age so there is a big big gap there.

The german type 212 and 214 are said to be thee quietest submarines in the world, if GF012 knows anything about them (i dont expect him to post anything about achostic just wether he thinks they are or arnt)

 

[gf0012-aust]

The german type 212 and 214 are said to be thee quietest submarines in the world, if GF012 knows anything about them (i dont expect him to post anything about achostic just wether he thinks they are or arnt)

I'll qualify things by stating that they are amongts the quietest production platforms in the world.

There are really two types of production (ignoring whether they are conventional or nuclear) - factory and modified post production.

Some of the quietest submarines in the world are modified post production.

 

[Rich]

Quiet is subjective. The Diesels may be quiet but they still make plenty of noise when they snorkel. And to remain quiet they cant maneuver much, or at much speed, which translates into their being weapons of littoral warfare and/or choke points.

Also USN SSBNs and SSNs have very powerful detection capabilities, and are backed by a vast network of same. A diesel, even an advanced one, is basically only quieter when its stopped, or moving at slow speeds. At higher speeds its not only louder then a USN SSN but it depletes its power faster , which means it has to resurface sooner. In blue water there is nothing that can stand against the USN submarine force. The simple fact is that on balance any diesel cant compete with a Seawolf.

However.........when looking at the big picture? I think advanced diesel submarines in the hands of the enemy, with capable crews manning them???? Are a problem! In shallow water, or in choke points where we have to "come to them"? I believe they are a problem. A chicken crap Navy like Iran would happily sacrifice all their submarines to take out a major capitol USN warship.

 

[KAPITAIN]

Your forgetting now that most conventional submarines run on whats called air independant prepulsion which is quieter than a normal diesel and doesnt need to surface for week's.

The gulf is a choke point its shallow, not far wide so its vunreble to land based ASM missiles and sit your subs on the seabed and you have a bigger problem, the USN submarines are mainly designed for blue water not brown this is reflected in the size of the submarine 360 feet compaired to a diesel of what 200feet.

Also SONAR doesnt work to well in shallow waters you cant realy use towed array it drag on the bottom and the noise from other ships is tremendous (even though they have filters).

Im not going to quote on SONAR GF012 will know whats what on that score.

As for a kilo, well its a quiet platform and the one thing the USN does fear the most are the conventional submarines, since only a few months ago the atlantic fleet has its backside wiped by a single swedish gotland class submarine (almost bought the admirals to tears!).

The kilo class is old but effective it can engauge multiple targets at once, and with 6 bow tubes that is not a problem.
Armed with 53-65KE torpedos which can sink frigates and destroyers and a few to sink something bigger it makes them a formidable force one that america's navy is scared of.

The USN leased a swedish gotalnd SSK and its crew for trails, what happend? to put it mildly the admirals lost alot of confidence in thier ASW tactics simply because this tiny submarine out did them every time hence why they bought it over in the first place, however newer tactics have been put in place so im sure its not going to happen again.

But we will have to wait and see.

 

[Rich]

"""Your forgetting now that most conventional submarines run on whats called air independant prepulsion which is quieter than a normal diesel and doesnt need to surface for week's."""

Most? I was understanding that very few have AIP currently. Either way, and under the right conditions, we could have a problem with diesel subs.

 

[KAPITAIN]

Type 212 and 214 have AIP, all swedish submarines have AIP, new russian amur has AIP, french scorpene can be fitted with AIP, there was even a design where the kilo could be fitted with AIP.

Diesel electric is starting to be phased out give it 20 or 30 years there wont be Diesel electric any more. thats my belief.

 

[Rich]

OK, "20 to 30 years from now" and your statement will be true. While the advanced diesels are a threat its important to remember that there is no "free lunch" with them. True in shallow water they can be effective but it also has a tradeoff. They are more vulnerable to MAD detection in shallow water and they probably wont have a cold layer to hide under which makes them more vulnerable to sonar.

Even with AIP they will have to maneuver and once they do that they will make noise. Especially trying to keep up with a CBG.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Most? I was understanding that very few have AIP currently. Either way, and under the right conditions, we could have a problem with diesel subs.

Less than 5% of current conventionals have AIP.

The RAN had space for AIP in the Collins but the tests showed no significant advantage for its inclusion - so future vessels never had it fitted. The AIP evaluation module is sitting on a crate in the corner of the sub building site.

Personally, I think the AIP issue has been over hyped - it all depends on the mission approach and doctrine style of the subforce.

Collins was initially designed to act as a supportive fleet submarine - and its predecessors regularly ran ops into eastern russia during the cold war. (that info was only released under the 30 year rule in Jan 2006). So range (which is demonstrably further on Collins) is a moot point. Similarly so on a sub like the Oyashios which can challenge a nuke in absolute dive terms.

I think the confusion in public forum debates lies in the fact that sometimes people try to relate the warfighting doctrine of a nuke to a conventional when they are very very different. eg A conv sub driver trying to chase a nuke is just not doing their job properly - as thats not the game.

 

[KAPITAIN]

My personal thought was that the conventionals just sat and waited, the nukes did the running.