South Korean Navy

or that Koizumi's popularity was due to the economy & not the visits ?
You fool, you can't prove a negative! You alleged it, so you come up with the evidence.

The voters sure didn't punish Koizumi for his visits.
Why would they? Just because you wouldn't vote for someone like that doesn't mean they would punish him just on that.

You're playing games with asking for evidence. In a democracy, the leaders' actions are representative of the people's wishes.
That is bull and you know it. For one thing, many people do not vote. For another not everyone votes for the government. Even then as I said there are many issues at the ballot box. I have never heard of a situation where someone has been voted out simply because he went to a shrine (or similar). If you are so sure support for Koizumi/Abe was/is based on glorifying the war/war criminals you should be able to find a Japanese newspaper article saying something along those lines.
 

Schumacher

New Member
Why would they? Just because you wouldn't vote for someone like that doesn't mean they would punish him just on that.

That is bull and you know it. For one thing, many people do not vote. For another not everyone votes for the government. Even then as I said there are many issues at the ballot box. I have never heard of a situation where someone has been voted out simply because he went to a shrine (or similar). If you are so sure support for Koizumi/Abe was/is based on glorifying the war/war criminals you should be able to find a Japanese newspaper article saying something along those lines.
Exactly, many Japanese genuinely sees nothing wrong with visiting the shrine so don't bother to vote to have their say against it.

'......Because of worsening relations between Japan and other Asian countries, opposition politicians and even some leading members of Koizumi's governing coalition have said they fear the prime minister is unnecessarily rekindling animosities to appease nationalistic supporters. Public opinion polls in Japan indicate an almost even split between approval and disapproval of his visits to the shrine.....'

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/17/AR2005101701417.html

Koizumi's action was to appease nationalistic supporters, ie vote buying. And most worrying, a full 50% of public surveyed supported the visits.
 
Exactly, many Japanese genuinely sees nothing wrong with visiting the shrine so don't bother to vote to have their say against it.
How does any of that prove Japan is a "war criminal nation"? A lot of people don't see anything wrong in going to Yasukuni because they are just praying for the dead soliders.
 

Transient

New Member
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0XPQ/is_2001_August_27/ai_78570472

50.5% support Koizumi's rearranged Yasukuni visit: poll

TOKYO, Aug. 20 Kyodo

A total of 50.5% of Japanese people responding to a Kyodo News survey supported Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's rescheduling of his Yasukuni Shrine visit to Aug. 13 from Aug. 15, the 56th anniversary of Japan's surrender in World War II, results of the poll showed Monday.

Although the support rate for Koizumi's cabinet dropped below the 80% line for the first time since its inauguration in April, it still maintained a high level at 79.5%, according to the survey conducted on Saturday and Sunday.

The disapproval rate also hit two digits for the first time at 13.4%, but the results showed the premier's ''political judgment'' in going against his earlier pledge to visit the Tokyo Shinto shrine on Aug. 15 was generally approved of by citizens.

A total of 23.6% of respondents said they had wanted Koizumi to stick to his promise since the LDP presidential election and visit the shrine on Aug. 15, while 23.2% said they opposed Koizumi's visit to the shrine regardless of the date.

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On their reasons for supporting Koizumi's visit on the 13th, 41.0% said ''there was no need to stick to a visit on the 15th,'' followed by ''respect for the premier's consideration (of the issue)'' at 30.0% and ''consideration for friendly relations with China, South Korea and others,'' at 27.5%.

The top reason for those who wanted Koizumi to visit on the 15th was that it is the most appropriate date to pay tribute to the war dead, at 46.3%, followed by 33.5% who said the premier should have stuck to his initial position.

The main reason given by those who said Koizumi should not have visited the shrine at all was that it would have a bad impact on friendly relations with China, South Korea and other countries, at 44.6%, followed by 25.3% who cited the shrine's honoring of Class A war criminals.

The shrine honors 14 Class A war criminals among the 2.47 million Japanese who have died in wars since the mid-19th century.

On reasons for supporting the Koizumi cabinet, 22.2% said they ''trust the premier,'' followed by ''expectations of political reform,'' at 20.2%, ''no other appropriate people'' at 14.1% and ''expectations of administrative reform,'' at 13.9%.

The main reason for disapproving of the cabinet was ''no hope in its economic policies'' at 24.2%.

On support for political parties, Koizumi's ruling Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) received 48.4%, the main opposition Democratic Party of Japan 12.2%, and the New Komeito party, one of the LDP's two coalition partners, and Liberal Party both 4.0%, the survey showed.

The Japanese Communist Party and the Social Democratic Party (SDP) both attracted 3.4% support while the New Conservative Party, the other partner in the ruling coalition, received none.

The telephone survey was conducted on 1,634 households with eligible voters, of whom 1,092 people responded.

COPYRIGHT 2001 Kyodo News International, Inc.
COPYRIGHT 2001 Gale Group
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0XPQ/is_2001_June_4/ai_75331666

Support rate for Koizumi stays around 85% in newspaper polls

TOKYO, May 29 Kyodo

The support rate for the cabinet of Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi remained around 85% in opinion poll results published Tuesday by two leading Japanese newspapers.

Koizumi's support rate in a survey carried out by the Asahi Shimbun was 84%, while it was 85.5% in a poll conducted by the Yomiuri Shimbun.

The high support rates show the public support for his policies and political stance, the papers said.

According to the Asahi, the rate hit a record high, rising from 78% in the previous poll in April, while the disapproval rate was 6%.

It is unusual for a cabinet's support rate to rise in the second poll after its coming to power, the daily said.

Among respondents who back the Liberal Democratic Party (LDP), which Koizumi heads, 93% voiced support for the Koizumi cabinet, while those who back the New Komeito party, one of the LDP's ruling coalition allies, gave it 81% support, up from 70%, according to the Asahi poll.

Even among respondents who back the opposition Japanese Communist Party (JCP), the support rate for the cabinet hit 70%, up from 57% in the first poll, the daily said.

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As for reasons for supporting the Koizumi cabinet, 36% cited its policies, up from 27%, and among the 36%, some 90% said they support his decision last Wednesday not to appeal against a landmark court ruling ordering the state to pay compensation to former leprosy patients for forcing them into isolation.

However, 47% of the Asahi poll respondents think Koizumi is just a popular figurehead, compared with 56% in the last poll, while those who believe he can deliver his proposed reforms rose to 37% from 23%.

The support rate for the LDP was 34%, slightly up from the previous poll's 32%, showing the wide gap between the support rates for the cabinet and the party, while 62% said they expect a political realignment.

Meanwhile, the Yomiuri said the 85.5% support rate for the Koizumi cabinet was a record high for a poll done through interviewing respondents face to face. In the April poll, which was done by telephone, the support rate was 87.1%.

LDP supporters in the Yomiuri poll backed the cabinet at a rate of 95.5%, while among those supporting the opposition Democratic Party of Japan (DPJ), the support rate was 87.3%. Among nonaligned respondents, 80.3% supported the cabinet, the poll showed.

The disapproval rate for the cabinet was a record low 5.7%, according to the poll.

As for the reason for the support, 54% said they value Koizumi's political stance and 49% said the cabinet is better than previous cabinets, while only 4% said they support it because Koizumi is an LDP prime minister.

In the Yomiuri poll, the LDP's support rate was 37%, up 9.8 percentage points from the April poll and rising above 30% for the first time in seven months, while the DPJ was supported by 5.1% of respondents, down 3.8 points.

The Asahi received responses from 2,394 eligible voters across Japan in its telephone poll carried out Saturday and Sunday, while the Yomiuri cited 1,987 respondents in a survey through interviews done at the same time.

COPYRIGHT 2001 Kyodo News International, Inc.
COPYRIGHT 2001 Gale Group
Some simpletons believe that people base their votes simply on one policy. :rolleyes:
 

Schumacher

New Member
How does any of that prove Japan is a "war criminal nation"? A lot of people don't see anything wrong in going to Yasukuni because they are just praying for the dead soliders.
Make up your mind fast. Are you arguing there're nothing wrong with Abe's recent comments and Koizumi's shrine visits or are you saying they're wrong but the Japanese population don't support it ?
 
Make up your mind fast. Are you arguing there're nothing wrong with Abe's recent comments and Koizumi's shrine visits or are you saying they're wrong but the Japanese population don't support it ?
You are twisting what I said. I was talking about going to Yasukuni. It is possible for people to go there and believe Japan committed war crimes. Others did not support his visits. I said nothing of the sort about Abe's comments.

Take a look at Transient's article - nowhere does it say support for Koizumi's governments was down to his Yasukuni visits.

As I have said before, why is Japan a "war criminal nation"? I have kept asking this question yet you refuse to provide some real evidence for it, other than that not enough people vote against politicians in elections on the basis that Chinese and Koreans get upset!
 

Schumacher

New Member
You are twisting what I said. I was talking about going to Yasukuni. It is possible for people to go there and believe Japan committed war crimes. Others did not support his visits.

I said nothing of the sort about Abe's comments.

As I have said before, why is Japan a "war criminal nation"? I have kept asking this question yet you refuse to provide some real evidence for it, other than that not enough people vote against politicians in elections on the basis that Chinese and Koreans get upset!
Check again, I didn't use "war criminal nation". What I say is Koizumi's visit & Abe's comments have significant support among the population which I say is a cause for worry.
And no, not because of China or SK being upset but the genuine absence of any sense of wrong with the actions of their leaders.
 
What I say is Koizumi's visit & Abe's comments have significant support among the population which I say is a cause for worry.
You have not provided any evidence as to how much support Abe's comments have. As to Koizumi's visit, why is that a cause for concern? As I said many people don't see Yasukuni as you see it.

And no, not because of China or SK being upset but the genuine absence of any sense of wrong with the actions of their leaders.
Which does not mean they think what Japan did in the past was ok. There's a lot of irritation at the regular criticism from countries like China and South Korea - President Roh uses it to boost his flagging popularity. On Yasukuni some people supported the visits because they saw it as standing up to people meddling in their affairs.
 

Schumacher

New Member
You have not provided any evidence as to how much support Abe's comments have. As to Koizumi's visit, why is that a cause for concern? As I said many people don't see Yasukuni as you see it.
And go check again. I said we'll have to see if the voters will punish or reward him in the next poll. But the fact that Abe thinks such comments are worth a try to salvage his political fortune shows he knows there's significant support out there.

Which does not mean they think what Japan did in the past was ok. There's a lot of irritation at the regular criticism from countries like China and South Korea - President Roh uses it to boost his flagging popularity. On Yasukuni some people supported the visits because they saw it as standing up to people meddling in their affairs.
Not wrong here. And it's equally possible many of the supporters do think the war was ok.
 
And go check again. I said we'll have to see if the voters will punish or reward him in the next poll.
You are still carrying on with this ridiculous position. It is simply not credible to take a position that whether or not people support his comments will be shown by how many votes he gets - especially given he back-peddled somewhat by saying he stood by the 1993 apology.

But the fact that Abe thinks such comments are worth a try to salvage his political fortune shows he knows there's significant support out there.
If you allege that, I can also allege the fact Abe said he still supported the 1993 apology shows he knows there's significiant support out there to make such comments.

In reality politicians often say what they believe without a desire to gain votes from them.

Not wrong here. And it's equally possible many of the supporters do think the war was ok.
How can you say it's "worrying" if you have no idea what the proportion is?
 

Schumacher

New Member
You are still carrying on with this ridiculous position. It is simply not credible to take a position that whether or not people support his comments will be shown by how many votes he gets - especially given he back-peddled somewhat by saying he stood by the 1993 apology.

If you allege that, I can also allege the fact Abe said he still supported the 1993 apology shows he knows there's significiant support out there to make such comments.

In reality politicians often say what they believe without a desire to gain votes from them.

How can you say it's "worrying" if you have no idea what the proportion is?
Not ridiculous at all. If at the poll, he still bring up these comments as a major part of the campaign & he wins big. I think we can safely make conclusions from there.
Yes, he backtracked which is a combination of foreign and internal pressure. That's reassuring but would have been so much better had there been no such issue in the first place.
I think you're naive about politicians. If they risk controversy to do something, more likely than not they expect reward from it, ie votes or almost as worrying, Abe personally believed what he said.
Why 'worrying' ? Even if the majority of the supporters did so just to spite China & SK, it shows many Japanese are getting angry & perhaps starting to see themselves as victim. I think this is 'worrying'.
Germany, in contrast, does not show such signs.
 

eckherl

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Enough here. Go on any longer and this will turn into shayte.

To answer eckherl,
let me start by describing ROKN's current status and planned reforms.

Current ROKN fleet structure(see link below)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e285/jabert121/reform_01.jpg

Operations Command

1st Fleet(East Sea)
2nd Fleet(Yellow Sea)
3rd Fleet(Southern Seas)

1st/2nd/3rd Flotilla
Under Each Fleet

Submarine Corps(9th Flotiila)

Aviation Corps(6th Flotilla)

*5th Flotilla : Landing/Logistics/Mine Operations
7th Flotilla : Base Protection
8th Flotilla : Training and Research



Planned Future fleet structure.

Operations Command

-1st Fleet
-2nd Fleet
-3rd Fleet

-Submarine Command

-Aviation Command

-Mobile Group


Fleets here are Regional Fleets consisting mainly of
FFK(Ulsan class 9 ships) and PCC(Pohang class 24 ships) and numerous PKMs
The changes will be
: Flotillas under each Fleet will be disbanded and Fleet HQ will assume
direct command of its squadrons.

: Submarine and Aviation Corps(or Flotillas) are to be expanded into
individual commands.(On par with fleets)

: Establish a mobile group consisting of 1 LPX, 3 DDGs(KDX3), 6 DDH


Mobile Fleet being reduced to current plan was a major set back.
Initially the navy wanted 6 DDGs and 12 DDHs and 3 LPX to form 3 Mobile
Groups to make up a Mobile Fleet. The National Assembly didn't approved
the plan as budgets were getting tight with "Defence Reform 2020" in
action. Army drew up some huge budget plans and navy plans got cut.
So for the time being Navy has only 3 DDGs and 6 DDHs and a single
LPX to play with. Amphibious assets might be supplemented with introduction
of LST-IIs, which will be closer to an LPD than a traditional LSTs.

Regional Fleets will be reinforced as FFX and PKX will replace current Ulsans
and Pohangs and PKMs.

There has been talking of reviving the Mobile Fleet plan but ROKN has
officially denied it so that's that.

This is the plan till 2020.
FFX and PKX in service with the Regional Fleets will ensure that command of
the sea is maintained regarding our northern neighbours. 18 strong Submarine
Command providing asymetric measures. DDGs and DDHs and LPX/LPDs forming
mobile groups.
Thank you for the information.

To everyone else - we are getting way off topic here.
 
Not ridiculous at all. If at the poll, he still bring up these comments as a major part of the campaign & he wins big.
What if he doesn't bring the comments up as a major part of the campaign? It didn't play a major part of the 2005 election - that was all about postal reform.

Yes, he backtracked which is a combination of foreign and internal pressure.
How do you know he didn't backtrack because there was opposition to his comments in Japan?

I think you're naive about politicians. If they risk controversy to do something, more likely than not they expect reward from it, ie votes
A Conservative politician in the UK was fired because of comments he made recently about black soldiers claiming racism so they could bunk off - there was absolutely no indication he was doing it for votes. In fact he kept saying he wasn't a racist, so that would rather show he didn't mean to come across that way. He said he made the comments because he thought they were important, even if he had phrased them badly.

So politicians often do make mistakes when they say things, and/or say what they believe regardless of the outcome.

Why 'worrying' ? Even if the majority of the supporters did so just to spite China & SK, it shows many Japanese are getting angry & perhaps starting to see themselves as victim. I think this is 'worrying'.
If some people kept shouting at you "apologise" and you feel you have apologised/there has been an apology already, wouldn't you be angry? Wouldn't you feel victimised?

Japanese people of today haven't done anything wrong. You can't say that just because people in the 1940s committed war crimes it means they have to sit there quietly and take all the abuse that anyone can see - you just have to look at many Chinese and Korean forums and websites (that's just online).

It isn't to spite China or South Korea, it's because they think that to change what is happening just to please them is wrong. I frequently hear comments from Chinese that comments made by foreigners about the need to do things like reform the political system are counter-productive and that these things will be solved by Chinese alone. So why can't Chinese understand many Japanese may have the same attitude?

Germany, in contrast, does not show such signs.
Germany isn't being constantly screamed at to apologise for the war. If countries like China and South Korea stop saying "you're not sorry - apologise now" so frequently, Japan would be more flexible.

But going on and on about it just makes it more difficult. Does China respond positively to regular complaints from the US et al about its human rights? No - so why should Japan respond positively to regular complaints about the war and related issues?
 
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Dae JoYoung

New Member
S. Korea Lunches Aegis Destroyer "King Sejong the Great"

Back on Topic:

On Friday, May 25th, 2007, the Republic of South Korea reached a major milestone in its military and defense progress.

The first Korean Destroyer Experimental III vessel (KDX-3) was launched on that date. The new vessel, named the Sejong the Great, DDG 991, is a full AEGIS capable vessel employing the same AN/SPY-1D system as the US Navy Areligh Burke class destroyers, and also utilizing the same AN/SQQ-89 submarine warfare suite.

But the vessels are also much more heavily armed than their American counterparts, with an 80 cell VLS grouping forward dedicated to SM-2 missiles, and a 48 cell VLS grouping aft carrying 32 land attack cruise missiles and 16 ASROC anti-submarine missiles. In addition, the vessel carries 16 anti-shipping missiles very similar to harpoon missiles, a rolling air frame (RAM) missile launcher with 21 short range anti-missile and anti-air missiles, and a 30mm Goalkeeper CIWS for more close in protection. Finally, the vessel carries 32 light weight topredoes and carries two anti-submarine helicopters in its hangars.

These vessels, when upgraded with TBM capabilities will allow the South Korean government to protect their interests and people against attack by rogue states, and help maitain the balance of power in the Western Pacific. The South Koreans have firm plans to build two more of these vessels, with a potential for three more, which would total six vessels in all.

Pictures of the launch and the dignitaries attending follow (click on each pic for a larger pciture)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1840792/posts#comment?q=1
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=99035
----------------------------------------

Even outclassing it's American counterpart, this becomes the latest and the most deadliest of all Aegis system destroyers in the world today. It's literally a DeathStar.
 
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chakos

New Member
It makes me wonder why the S.Koreans dont just come out and call a spade a spade and a cruiser a cruiser. I mean this monster has a full load displacement of over 10000 Tonnes, carries 165 various missiles, 32 torpedoes, 2 helicopters as well as various guns. It would, one for one, wipe anything afloat short of a Kirov and yet they persist in calling it a destroyer.. or do they honestly think they would annoy the Chinese or the Japanese any less if they called it a destroyer when it is obviously a cruiser for all to see?

Any thoughts..
?
 

Dae JoYoung

New Member
Koreans have a sense of humor. :p:

This DeathStar has two "Goalkeepers" in action:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=103097

--------------------------------------------

S. Korea to license German Technology:


The Type 214 is a diesel-electric submarine developed by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW). It is based on features of the Type 212, but as the export version of the more advanced Type 212 submarine it lacks the non-magnetic hull (to avoid detection) and other classified technologies. Also Type 214 is more similar to the very successful Type 209 submarine, while Type 212 was an independent project of the German Navy with significant changes to Type 209.

Contract to build three boats for Hellenic Navy was signed 15 February 2000 and a fourth one was ordered in June 2002. The first boat was built at HDW in Kiel, Germany and the rest at the Hellenic Shipyards Co. in Skaramangas, Greece. The Hellenic Navy calls the Papanikolis class.

South Korea has ordered three Type 214 boats, to be built in Korea by Hyundai Heavy Industries, which will enter service from 2009.[1] ROK Navy calls the Son Won-il class.

Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_214_submarine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Attack_Submarine_program
 
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contedicavour

New Member
This superb new KDX-3 DDG class is a perfect asset to counter north Korean missile launches. It is thus IMO very urgent to ensure the SM-2s have ATBM capability. Besides, it would ensure that nobody understands this new DDG is for arms races with Japan and that it really is an amazing defensive asset.

cheers
 

daewon

New Member
This superb new KDX-3 DDG class is a perfect asset to counter north Korean missile launches. It is thus IMO very urgent to ensure the SM-2s have ATBM capability. Besides, it would ensure that nobody understands this new DDG is for arms races with Japan and that it really is an amazing defensive asset.

cheers
eh... SK has declared that it will have no part in the MD programs.
Thus while Japanese Atago classes will have SM-3 for ballistice missle
interception, SK has not ordered them.

I think we're more worried about losing favor with the Chinese.
They'll go nuts if SK were to obtain anti ballistic capabilities. We
don't quite need that now. Were SK to participate in the MD programs
its defence acquisitions will be met with much discontent from China
and others. That could prove to be ruinous as we don't really want to
get into an endless arms race, mainly cuz we could never out arm our
neighbours.

As for the Japanese, while there are certainly animosity towards
each other it is definitely short of aggression. As I said before coop
between ROK/Jap is increasing and besides they're both capitalist
economies with interest in keeping peace with each other.
Japan is more than capable of defending anything Korea can throw
at them. So wouldn't be worried just now.
 

contedicavour

New Member
eh... SK has declared that it will have no part in the MD programs.
Thus while Japanese Atago classes will have SM-3 for ballistice missle
interception, SK has not ordered them.

I think we're more worried about losing favor with the Chinese.
They'll go nuts if SK were to obtain anti ballistic capabilities. We
don't quite need that now. Were SK to participate in the MD programs
its defence acquisitions will be met with much discontent from China
and others. That could prove to be ruinous as we don't really want to
get into an endless arms race, mainly cuz we could never out arm our
neighbours.

As for the Japanese, while there are certainly animosity towards
each other it is definitely short of aggression. As I said before coop
between ROK/Jap is increasing and besides they're both capitalist
economies with interest in keeping peace with each other.
Japan is more than capable of defending anything Korea can throw
at them. So wouldn't be worried just now.
Interesting. Still I'd say that since the most likely source of aggression against the ROK is NK missiles, ATBM capabilities are vital. May be the aegis aboard the KDX could be installed in its latest versions with ATBM capability and SM3 brought aboard only in case of imminent war. The USN would certainly help out and provide the missiles in that case.

cheers
 
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