South Korean Navy

Schumacher

New Member
I didn't say there was no relation, but it is still a choice that the Japanese people will make by themselves. If that wasn't the case, why would support for revising Article 9 be increasing when according to you it would still cause controversy in Asia?
ok. Made by themselves with a combination of pressure & pacificism. Why more support for it now ? Well, the rise of China & the US's willingness to let them to get them to help out with China.
 

eckherl

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Yeah, why can't they be smarter & let u decide who they want to worry abt ?
If all you are going to do is throw in your smart ass comments Schumacher then do not respond to my posts and I will give you the same courtesy.
 

Transient

New Member
I didn't say there was no relation, but it is still a choice that the Japanese people will make by themselves. If that wasn't the case, why would support for revising Article 9 be increasing when according to you it would still cause controversy in Asia?
Why do you still bother with him? He has admitted outright that he based his perceptions of article 9 on a personal assumption. An assumption he has refused to change even after confronted with directly contradicting evidence. Instead of admitting his mistake, he churns up further arguments to support his theory without anything to back himself up whatsoever.
 

Schumacher

New Member
If all you are going to do is throw in your smart ass comments Schumacher then do not respond to my posts and I will give you the same courtesy.
No, u seem genuinely perplexed why Asians worry more abt Japan than China & has the audacity to say they're not smart to do so as if u know more abt their well-being than themselves.
Many will argue the other way around ie dispute that more worry abt Japan than China, in which case it'll be a long argument with no easy conclusion.
 

daewon

New Member
So is Asia willing to accept China as a military might, correct at the moment there is no cause for alarm concerning China but in the future this may not be the case.
You got me here :)
No China is not a better option. In fact it would be the greater of the two
evils. However Japan climbing back to the top is just as scary. Japan with CVBGs SSNs controlling Asian water? God, the horror. Frankly I'd like to see Korea do that but I know it's a totally biased and highly unlikely idea.
As someone mentioned earlier if Japan and PRC were given a free reign in
an arms race it could be the revival of German UK naval rivalry back in early 20th century. Chinese military build up is now unstoppable even Japan won't be able to match it unless it gets itself nuclear weapons. To keep things stable in the Far East sbd outside the zone has to intervene. US is the only one qualified in that role.
So it would have no point for Japan to get itself a new constituyion just to match the growing Chinese. If it aimed to do that it would feel compelled to get nukes and that's not a road anybody wants to take.
 

eckherl

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
It is understandable how some of you may have a general bias
for Japan. After all it is a G7 nation with strong cultural influence on
the world. It is a great nation with huge potential that has not
demonstrated aggresiveness during the last half century.

However to disregard its neighbors concerns as mere zeal is a mistake.
Japanses population tend to be uneducated when it come to its dark
past. They simply are not aware of the atrocities that were suffered by
people other than themselves. They always view themselves as the
victim when they look back on history. This has Asian nations frustrated.
If they were so innocent back then, who murdered raped and mutilated so
many? Imaging Germans denying Holocaust, you wouldn't quite trust them
either.

Maybe you are right, Japan did choose to stay a pacifist country for
the last 50 yrs. So stay that way. Why change the constitution when
even with it you have built your self a more than capable navy and huge
airpower. Japan if it wants to can relive its grand military tradition anytime.
We want some assurance that it won't do so.
Is that such an unreasonable expectation?
I know wounds from the past are hard at healing, but does South Korea really trust China, I asked my Korean oma the question of who does Korea trust, and her answer to me was no one, she is 82 years of age, I asked my wife the same question and she stated that she felt China was the bigger threat and she could see Korea and Japan working together in the future to counter this possible future threat. Prime minister Abe needs to get his foot out of his mouth and admit to some of the war atrocities Japan has caused, maybe this would ease up on the trust issue and Korea and Japan could start working closely together. Again - maybe wishful thinking on my part.
 

eckherl

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
No, u seem genuinely perplexed why Asians worry more abt Japan than China & has the audacity to say they're not smart to do so as if u know more abt their well-being than themselves.
Many will argue the other way around ie dispute that more worry abt Japan than China, in which case it'll be a long argument with no easy conclusion.
No I am not perplexed on how other Asian nations view Japan and I am not saying that they are stupid either, it was a just figure of speech.
All I was trying to say is that I would like to see some of these countries come together and start working together to take some of the punch out China that will be there in future times.

And you are right we could argue forever on the trust issue.
 
Why change the constitution when even with it you have built your self a more than capable navy and huge airpower.
Because the Constitution as it stands seems to forbid that capable navy (and I wouldn't say its airpower is "huge") from existing at all. Japan wants to have the Constitution recognise its armed forces as being legitimate.

Why is that not acceptable?
 

Schumacher

New Member
It is understandable how some of you may have a general bias
for Japan. After all it is a G7 nation with strong cultural influence on
the world. It is a great nation with huge potential that has not
demonstrated aggresiveness during the last half century.

However to disregard its neighbors concerns as mere zeal is a mistake.
Japanses population tend to be uneducated when it come to its dark
past. They simply are not aware of the atrocities that were suffered by
people other than themselves. They always view themselves as the
victim when they look back on history. This has Asian nations frustrated.
If they were so innocent back then, who murdered raped and mutilated so
many? Imaging Germans denying Holocaust, you wouldn't quite trust them
either.

Maybe you are right, Japan did choose to stay a pacifist country for
the last 50 yrs. So stay that way. Why change the constitution when
even with it you have built your self a more than capable navy and huge
airpower. Japan if it wants to can relive its grand military tradition anytime.
We want some assurance that it won't do so.
Is that such an unreasonable expectation?
Daewon, I think the reason for the views of some with regard to China-Asia-Japan by some are quite simple, getting them to admit it is another matter.
Japan, has been a G7 & a good ally of the west for a long time, but that didn't stop it from being accused as a threat from the 70s up to first half of 90s.
What change now ? One word, China. US is the top dog & China is the one with the most potential to overtake it.
So Japan now becomes the lesser evil & is now described as 'peaceful' just so to get it, & other nations, on board against China. Simple divide & conquer, that's all.
 

Schumacher

New Member
No I am not perplexed on how other Asian nations view Japan and I am not saying that they are stupid either, it was a just figure of speech.
All I was trying to say is that I would like to see some of these countries come together and start working together to take some of the punch out China that will be there in future times.

And you are right we could argue forever on the trust issue.
See my post to Daewon. It's natural that US wants to keep its top dog status & hope others will work with it to keep China at bay. No right or wrong here.
I can see the SK-Japan rivalry from history is not helpful to this since both are US allies.
But at least be open abt this instead of making up that Asians have no good reasons to worry abt Japan.
 

daewon

New Member
OK guys let's not get carried away here.

The claim that Japan is a completely pacifist nation is backed by
the fact that Japan has maintained its Pacifist Constitution for the
last 5 decades and that it has during that time shown no sign of
aggression towards the world.
That is solid logic and very convincing.
At least nominally Japan has maintained a very pacifist attitude,
which is in itself a laudable achievement.

When you look into how Japan has behaved it is more worrisome.
Continued denial of their war criminal past and the public's
ignorance of it gives reason to doubt their sincerety. At least that
is how it is perceived by its neighbors. If they were wrong and
Japan is sincere in its intention to being a peaceful nation why not
keep its current constitution? Even with it they have sufficient
"self defence" force to withstand all but a nuclear strike.

I do agree China as a dominant power in the Far East is alarming.
If I had to choose China would always be a greater of the two evils,
so to speak. I also agree that closer cooperation btwn Japan and Korea
is preferable. That is actually being promoted though.

I just wanted to point out that Japan while sometimes over villified
it is in other instances overly trusted.

I hope that the naval arms race that lead to heightened tensions and
eventually to war back in early 20th century does not repeat itself here.
US can act as a stabilizer here unlike back then and Japan and ROK together
could work to check the growing China.
 
Japan, has been a G7 & a good ally of the west for a long time, but that didn't stop it from being accused as a threat from the 70s up to first half of 90s.
Erm, it was regarded by the US as an economic threat. It was not believed to be a military threat at all (and it isn't today) - plus the Japanese recession in the 1990s took care of the fear of Japan "buying up" the US.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Japan, South Korea and the other East Asian countries will be far more independent with cooperation and the US to offset Chinese power.

China wants the US out, as it cannot assert itself over these countries as long as the US is around.

Divide and rule btw. Please spell out the words "u", "r" and "abt" is a horror to read.
 

Schumacher

New Member
Erm, it was regarded by the US as an economic threat. It was not believed to be a military threat at all (and it isn't today) - plus the Japanese recession in the 1990s took care of the fear of Japan "buying up" the US.
Why attack if u can buy up the whole country ? :) Anyway, yes, the recession did take some air out of that. And the point is there's no such talks now.
Like I said, it's hard for some to admit to their true motivations.
 

Schumacher

New Member
Japan, South Korea and the other East Asian countries will be far more independent with cooperation and the US to offset Chinese power.

China wants the US out, as it cannot assert itself over these countries as long as the US is around.

Divide and rule btw. Please spell out the words "u", "r" and "abt" is a horror to read.
ok, mod, no more u, r, abt. :)
Yes, many do want US to stay to help keep China balance & vice-versa for self-interest. But do they want US to openly challenge China just for the sake of keeping its top dog status ? and force them to choose in the process ?
 

eckherl

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
@daewon

You talked earlier in the thread about what South Korea is doing at the present moment at securing her interests in that regoin. Do you know what their vision is in the future for their naval power after they have achieved that goal.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
ok, mod, no more u, r, abt. :)
Oh thank you. ;)

Yes, many do want US to stay to help keep China balance & vice-versa for self-interest. But do they want US to openly challenge China just for the sake of keeping its top dog status ? and force them to choose in the process ?
Well, ultimately it is their choice.

Can't see the US challenging anybody over "top dog" status. China is so distant from that position that they are in "peace and tranquility" mode towards China.

Certainly no Cold War conditions exist or will exist in the medium term.
 

Transient

New Member
OK guys let's not get carried away here.

The claim that Japan is a completely pacifist nation is backed by
the fact that Japan has maintained its Pacifist Constitution for the
last 5 decades and that it has during that time shown no sign of
aggression towards the world.
That is solid logic and very convincing.
At least nominally Japan has maintained a very pacifist attitude,
which is in itself a laudable achievement.

When you look into how Japan has behaved it is more worrisome.
Continued denial of their war criminal past and the public's
ignorance of it gives reason to doubt their sincerety. At least that
is how it is perceived by its neighbors. If they were wrong and
Japan is sincere in its intention to being a peaceful nation why not
keep its current constitution? Even with it they have sufficient
"self defence" force to withstand all but a nuclear strike.

I do agree China as a dominant power in the Far East is alarming.
If I had to choose China would always be a greater of the two evils,
so to speak. I also agree that closer cooperation btwn Japan and Korea
is preferable. That is actually being promoted though.

I just wanted to point out that Japan while sometimes over villified
it is in other instances overly trusted.

I hope that the naval arms race that lead to heightened tensions and
eventually to war back in early 20th century does not repeat itself here.
US can act as a stabilizer here unlike back then and Japan and ROK together
could work to check the growing China.
Despite your distrust of Japan, your abilty to maintain objectivity is impressive. You have said that the Japanese population is pacifist, and I fully agree. Another thing I would add is that Japan is a fully functioning democracy, and just as there are some hardliners there are also liberals. While it is regrettable that there are people like Abe who sprout denials of Imperial Japan's atrocities, as well as Japan's whitewashing of its past in some sectors, as long as the population remains pacifist and democracy is maintained there should be no need to fear a Japan repeating its mistakes. In fact, despite having a strong navy, it's armed forces isn't even capable of carrying out what it did in WW2. It simply isn't built to undertake invasions anymore.
 
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