Singapore to acquire Leopard 2A4s

[swerve]

I think a lot of people here underestimate the effectiveness of heavy armour in Jungle terrain. Australia used tanks with great success in Vietnam in supporting infantry and Singapore would be equally as effective.

And in any case, where's all this jungle? Peninsular Malaysia & the nearer regions of Indonesia are quite densely populated. Most land is used for agriculture.

BTW, so was the Australian area of operations in Vietnam, IIRC. More paddy fields than forest.

 

[swerve]

Ground pressure.

L2A4's ground pressure is .83 kg per cm2
L2A5/6 is .89 kg per cm2
Merkava's is .9 kg per cm2
M1 is .95 to >1 kg per cm2

AMX 13 only has ground pressure of .76 kg per cm2. M113 is approx .6 kg per cm2. Ground pressure is an impt consideration in soft land like those in SE Asia.

But Singapores AMX-13s are up-armoured. The ground pressure, according to the Singapore MinDef factsheet linked to from the press release cited in the first post, is higher than for the Leo 2A4.

 

[FutureTank]

I think a lot of people here underestimate the effectiveness of heavy armour in Jungle terrain. Australia used tanks with great success in Vietnam in supporting infantry and Singapore would be equally as effective.

What jungle?

 

[Aussie Digger]

What jungle?

The jungle wasn't too bad from all reports in Vietnam, but Australia also successfully operated tanks in New Guinea in WW2 at Sannananda, Gona an Milne Bay where the jungle was absolutely atrocious...

 

[kotay]

Why would SAF acquire Leopards if they could get Merkavah for same price? Not much difference tactically speaking

Political sensitivity for one. Singapore neighbours (geographically) are predominantly Muslim nations.

There was quite a ruckus when we got the Barak so I'd say it'd be a lot worse if we got the Merkava ... especially given the context of it's use in recent times.

Ground pressure.

L2A4's ground pressure is .83 kg per cm2
L2A5/6 is .89 kg per cm2
Merkava's is .9 kg per cm2
M1 is .95 to >1 kg per cm2

AMX 13 only has ground pressure of .76 kg per cm2. M113 is approx .6 kg per cm2. Ground pressure is an impt consideration in soft land like those in SE Asia.

Other reason why Leo 2 and not Merkava,being that, IINM, there's more to a tracked vehicle's cross country mobility than simple Ground Pressure figures.

The Merkava was specifically designed not only to suit Israeli doctrine but also their terrain which is more hard & rocky than the terrain Singapore's Leo 2s are likely to face.

I've read anecdotal accounts of M1s being trialled in the Golans and getting their tracks ripped up while the Merkava's happily motored along. I'd say that Central European Terrain (which the Leo 2s are designed for) will be a closer match to modern urban/semi-urban SEA than Middle Eastern terrain (which the Merkavas are designed for)

 

[Ramjetmissile]

The tank has been quite effective in escorting convoy through hostile urban area and this fact has been further enhanced during the korsovo conflict and ongoing war in the middle east.i would like to emphasize that even through there are reasonably huge american casualties in the operation iraqi freedom . it does not means that the MBT arent doing a good job.

Due to the ongoing rapid urbanisation, wider roads were builded and it is not stopping instead more roads of such scale are emerging ubiquitously.The emergence of these infrastructures make logical sense for singapore to procure the 55 tonner.

Singapore possess a highly educated conscription army. MOst of the soldiers are computer literate.
Here is a link about singapore
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sn.html

 

[Waylander]

There are some questions to be solved.
Which Merkava would have been an option for Singapore?
And at what price?

The surplus Leo IIA4 are really cheap for their capabilities.
And if it comes with training assistance...

 

[FutureTank]

The jungle wasn't too bad from all reports in Vietnam, but Australia also successfully operated tanks in New Guinea in WW2 at Sannananda, Gona an Milne Bay where the jungle was absolutely atrocious...

Sorry, I though you meant jungles in Singapore

Unless concrete 'jungles'

 

[Lonewolf]

Like I said I have no hard evidence about the merkava's but I'm hearing from the tankees about the simulator training they had and how hush hush it is, Spore is famous for keeping things hush hush eg our Special Operations force ( spore SEAL equvelant ) has been around since the late 70's but was only public knowledge in 2000. not to mention the Centurions ( they use to transport them in the middle of the night) or even the phantoms fighter bombers based in ROC was all hush hush, oops i think the phantoms still is.

As for the terrain in Malaysia ( intended place of ops for saf armoured Battle groups) It will either be very dusty with soft soil ( dry season ) or very soft and muddy ( wet season ) or metal roads ( rural ), aka something like rural palistine only theirs is much more dry and dusty. We hardly ever train for urban warfare which will be the case if we were intended to fight in Spore.

SAF main armoured doctrine is tanks with heavy infantry support in assault or the AI ( armoured infantry ) flanking while the big guns keep the bad boys occupied, which the merkava is ideal for with its space for troops ( isrealy/ panzergranadier style ) , hence we do not even have reactive armour due to the proximity of our troops to the tanks.

as for Price $$, We are ( fact not boasting) only asean country with apache's, stealth cruisers, largest army, navy, airforce, SGD is also the strongest currensie. so spending $$ for Merkava's is not that far fetch.

 

[eckherl]

Like I said I have no hard evidence about the merkava's but I'm hearing from the tankees about the simulator training they had and how hush hush it is, Spore is famous for keeping things hush hush eg our Special Operations force ( spore SEAL equvelant ) has been around since the late 70's but was only public knowledge in 2000. not to mention the Centurions ( they use to transport them in the middle of the night) or even the phantoms fighter bombers based in ROC was all hush hush, oops i think the phantoms still is.

As for the terrain in Malaysia ( intended place of ops for saf armoured Battle groups) It will either be very dusty with soft soil ( dry season ) or very soft and muddy ( wet season ) or metal roads ( rural ), aka something like rural palistine only theirs is much more dry and dusty. We hardly ever train for urban warfare which will be the case if we were intended to fight in Spore.

SAF main armoured doctrine is tanks with heavy infantry support in assault or the AI ( armoured infantry ) flanking while the big guns keep the bad boys occupied, which the merkava is ideal for with its space for troops ( isrealy/ panzergranadier style ) , hence we do not even have reactive armour due to the proximity of our troops to the tanks.

as for Price $$, We are ( fact not boasting) only asean country with apache's, stealth cruisers, largest army, navy, airforce, SGD is also the strongest currensie. so spending $$ for Merkava's is not that far fetch.

So what Merkava model would you be getting, where is the tank simulator training being conducted at.

 

[Mick73]

I think the Leo2 is a good buy for Singapore. With the "fire sale" on German armour, you would be mad not to take this opportunity to get very capable hardware at a good price. A lot of countries have taken this opportunity and I wish we would of done the same. 3 Sqn's of Leo2 vs 2 Sqn's of M1A1's.
The only thing is the number of vehicles...it seems quite high but then again if they keep some in storage and maybe sent some to an O/S training area it sounds like a good buy for them.
Also I think they will work fine in the jungle...if you can't move your MBT's around then your enemy can't move them either!
I think the fact of them having the Leo2 would certainly make a possible aggressor think twice on invading or attacking Singapore in the future.

 

[riksavage]

Merkava's in Singapore

It would not surprise me if the Singaporeans bought a Merkava for evaluation purposes to look at the unique design features (front mounted engine, rear compartment for infantry). They are very keen to emulate the best tech available that is suitable to their unique environment. They just introduced an articulated APC, which looks identical to the UK Viking, but is in fact manufactured locally.

Incidentally the British Guns in Singapore could rotate to cover the causeway from Malaysia to Singapore, that was not the critical issue, the problem was they only had stocks of armored piercing shells specific to deal with a maritime threat.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Deleted

 

[kotay]

SINGAPORE - Total Area 699 km² 270 sq mi
Wildflecken Training Area - 15,000 acres in Bavaria alone
1 United States survey acre is equal to:
4046.87261 square metres or 4km2

Singapore would be a definite 'squeeze' for Rommel's concepts

Errmmmm ... hate to nitpick but something just twigged ...

4046 sq.m is not 4 sq.km, it's actually 0.00405 sq.km. Which will mean that 15,000 acres is roughly 60.75 sq.km or roughly all the military training area within Singapore itself.

But not to distract from your point, Yes, Singapore will be a bit cramped for large scale maneuvers. Hence Shoalwater Bay Training Area in QLD, Oz. 667,182 acres or 2,700 sq. km of free range goodness.

 

[FutureTank]

Errmmmm ... hate to nitpick but something just twigged ...

4046 sq.m is not 4 sq.km, it's actually 0.00405 sq.km. Which will mean that 15,000 acres is roughly 60.75 sq.km or roughly all the military training area within Singapore itself.

But not to distract from your point, Yes, Singapore will be a bit cramped for large scale maneuvers. Hence Shoalwater Bay Training Area in QLD, Oz. 667,182 acres or 2,700 sq. km of free range goodness.

Sorry, I wrote in haste, and this was pointed out already...but you got the point ok
That training ground is 20% of Singapore's non-built up area.

 

[riksavage]

Leos in Sing

Weasal1962 when I say evaluation, I actually mean a complete disassembly to look at possible reverse engineering opportunities.

Incidentally someone mentioned in an earlier thread that the Makerva model has never suffered any crew deaths. According to Janes, 50 IDF Merkava Mk 2, 3, and 4 MBT’s were hit by Hizbullah ATGM’s during the recent bun fight, 21were penetrated with a total of 23 tank crew deaths (RIP).

Singapore’s purchase of Leo’s is probably in answer to Malaysia’s recent purchase of PT-91M main battle tanks ordered form PHZ Bumar of Poland. Kuala Lumpur ordered a total of 48 units along with six WZT-4 armored recovery vehicles, five PMC-Leguan armored launched bridges and three OBRUM Gliwice MID-M obstacle breaching vehicles. At the end of the day the closest potential advisory linked by a land bridge with a capable military is Malaysia.

Does Singapore have thesea lift capability to move Leo's and Bionx AFV's if so how many?

 

[riksavage]

Pt-91

New Malaysian MBT:

The PT-91 is a Polish main battle tank. It is an extensive modernization of the T-72M1. It entered service in 1995. The PT-91 was designed at the Research and Development Centre of Mechanical Systems OBRUM and is produced by the Bumar Łabędy company. Changes from the T-72 include a new dual-axis stabilized fire-control system, reactive armour, a slightly more powerful 850-hp S12-U engine, and hydraulic transmission with seven forward gears and one reverse. In 1995 the PT-91 underwent a second modernization, called PT-91A, including a 1000-hp engine and a more advanced fire-control system, the automatic loader is also new (Wikipedia).

The Singapore Leo's will be more than a match !

 

[Mick73]

Does Singapore have thesea lift capability to move Leo's and Bionx AFV's if so how many?

Yes, they have 4 Endurance class LPD's but they are only 6000 tonnes so I don't know what they could lift.

 

[Lonewolf]

Yes, they have 4 Endurance class LPD's but they are only 6000 tonnes so I don't know what they could lift.

No need to lift, the LPD's are for flanking invasions on the the malaysian east west coast, all SPore AFV are amphibous the malaysian causeway is just 1km wide at some points if not shorter.

 

[Lonewolf]

It would surprise me if a Merk was bought for evaluation. It would have been cheaper to just fly the whole evaluation team to Israel.

"Phantoms" in ROC is a good joke. Doesn't make sense today when US can just dump a whole lot of surplus F16s into SG if required and with more than sufficient pilots in SG to take that up. Just like the US did in Yom Kippur '73. More believable is that SG pilots trained to fly F4s in the 80s.

btw, the British guns in SG did have HE rounds in 1942. I think the SAF did publish a history of the artillery in its armed forces back in the 80s which details the ammo/guns in SG.

The point is that the guns even with lots of ammo wouldn't have made any difference in the campaign. The battle was lost when the advanced recon spearhead with Jap tanks defeated the Indian divisions at Jitra.

The F4's was last heard of in the 1980 early 90's presently knothing, maybe the super skyhawks took over, maybe mothballed for reservist pilots, I don't know, but it make's sense since we have more reservist then active pilots anyway and we cannot possibly have enough aircraft for all of them.

For evauluation I have seen LAV,s Piranha'a and even a stryker?? in our training area going thrue the varous test, how can you evaluate a AFV properly for your own country, when the terrain and enviroment of the manufacturing country is vastly different from your own, men lives are at stake. small things like dust covers ( iran hostage crises, delta copters could not fly and had to abort )

By the way the Leo's better come with aircons, tempreture in a AFV is 2 degree celcuis higher then the outside 35c = 37c, with 80%-100% adverage humidity, not possible to fight/ live in. ANother thing pls correct me if I am wrong but the Leo's have manual loading system, if so we now have to train loaders. Asian man not big size,

WW2 the Japs were grossly under estimated and Yamashita out menouvered and out thought the allies ( not out fought, they fought well,but not enough) Fact- upon surrender the brits had more ammo/ guns men then the japs.