Blas de Lezo
Member
Not related but , I thought it was the best place to post this video of BAC Cantabria
Foro de Debate de La Armada Española
From a Spanish forum.
Foro de Debate de La Armada Española
From a Spanish forum.
Sea trials, LHD (JCI)
- Thread starter Alonso Quijano
- Start date
Blas de Lezo
Member
A nice video of av8b,s and JCI, you can almost see it turning on a dime.
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlmnLB722uI&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]Surcando el cielo desde la bahÃa de Cádiz - YouTube[/nomedia]
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlmnLB722uI&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]Surcando el cielo desde la bahÃa de Cádiz - YouTube[/nomedia]
t68
Well-Known Member
The Príncipe de Asturias (R-11) has been in commission now for thirty years, depending on her material state she might serve a bit longer. Spain had talks with the JSF program managers some time ago but have not committed to a buy of F35B aircraft as yet. The Spanish naval fleet is well balanced, when the last of the ex Newport’s are retired pending on budgetary problems they my build a 2nd LHD that might be the priority but I suspect they would have plans on the table using Juan Carlos as a baseline for a future carrier(no well dock) in the next fifteen years.
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From what I have heard the likelihood is that as soon as the Harriers are fully trained and operationally sound on the JCI the PdA will be heading out the door for budgetary reasons, its deployments have already been reduced. There may also be some hope of shafting it off to one of the emerging powers, but that would be unlikely in my view, to regain some funding. Not to mention that keeping Navantia running, as one of their only profitable businesses, will be essential for the Spanish Government which would probably require some sort of commitment before the Adelaide leave Spain as well.
t68
Well-Known Member
I guess there are a number of countries that could use a type of ship of this class not necessary the Juan Carlos but a ship of type. The Canadians were at one stage looking into a Mistral LHD to complement the JSS I believe both programs are floundering due to the lack of funds.
New Zealand in the future under the new joint amphibious task force doctrine is crying out for a LHD but not to the size of a Canberra class the Singaporeans have a design based on the Endurance class they call Endurance 160 should be a good fit for our Kiwi brothers.
Germany is another their navy has taken a back seat to the land forces due to complexities within the cold war construct, now that the cold war has been over for sometime and the German defence force it may reorganise in the future into a more flexible approach for more broader power projection and HADR, a ship of the size of Juan Carlos would be a good fit.
Then looking well into the future the UK will inevitably get a LHD when the Albion class LPD are decommissioned, they have design from BAE for a LHD but it won’t happen for some time in the future.
Italy has a LHD based on the very successful Cavour design, keel laying was to happen this year but with the financial crises I am not sure where they are up to with this.
t68
Well-Known Member
I really cannot see anyone taking her expect for one the smaller Asian countries to use as a LHA, Thailand’s experiment with HTMS Chakri Naruebet show’s that without committed funding its a white elephant sucking up funding which could be better spent elsewhere. IMHO if they need something like this on the cheap than a Makassar class would be more beneficial
kev 99
Member
Nobody, The UK has tried to sell Invincible and Ark Royal and got nowhere with either of them and their larger more capable ships.
Realistically looking at things the Koreans can turn out a Dokdo, brand new and at a similar size minus the aircraft capabilities (does not really matter seeing as there are no Harriers around), for about US$330 million (depending on what scale you look at) – that’s the same cost as the PdA would be looking at after a decent refit and you get a considerably longer lifespan.
In this day and age the only real states that would buy that sort of ship are those who know they are going to hang onto it for years and years, the Indians do not need to worry their current carrier has by their estimations eight years in it and there are more on the way the only slim chance of them buying it is if their current carrier fails before the new one can come online and even then the Ark Royal would be a more likely option as they have the experience with British warships. The Brazilians want something they can use catapult aircraft off so it’s out of the question.
Otherwise when you look at people reviewing the options of potential helicopter carriers there’s Argentina, it has been touted by the new government as they try and fix their military but realistically that is not an option for them and is just a false statement to piss off the brits, the South Africans have had an interest in a helicopter carrier before to solidify their position however they would most likely want something with better troop carrying propositions and I believe will go for a new build LPD or would go with a proven affordable design such as the Mistral which would fit in with their European Navy. Otherwise there are the old suggestions like Canada but really they would be looking at new build and only once they can get current programs like the JSS on budget and things like the Frigate replacement set up. Some people have talked about Turkey but I cannot see this being their sort of vessel considering their plan to have a new build Navy of indigenous vessels and I do not think the Libya campaign really demonstrated that such an asset would be incredibly useful to them and considering the ease in which Syria could shoot down their fighter jets helicopters would be child’s play. Even if they did so it would probably be the Ark having had a peek around the Invincible they are scrapping over the Spanish carrier.
In ideal economic circumstances they could see rather easily and the smaller states, or those that are unfamiliar with such vessels; like New Zealand, Germany and others listed might look at them as an expletory option but those circumstances do not exist at the present time, nor will they in the foreseeable short term future when procurement will be viable so this is an unfortunate no go zone. A real shame as this is a unit that has not seen a great deal of strenuous service, compared to the Invincibles, so is probably in really good nack and would be a good buy for someone like New Zealand and Germany looking for a test bed asset for transport and humanitarian roles with the eye for a future new unit more suited to their specific needs.
Other than that there are no other real states that have the potential availability of funds, nor the support of NATO for such a procurement which is why the PdA, alongside the Garibaldi, Ark and old US harrier-carriers are not destined for a second life out there in the military world and will either end up as museums, on the seabed or in some breakers yard. And even the crazy rulers, of which there are a lot less, have seen the failure of the Thai carrier to do anything for their image.
In this day and age the only real states that would buy that sort of ship are those who know they are going to hang onto it for years and years, the Indians do not need to worry their current carrier has by their estimations eight years in it and there are more on the way the only slim chance of them buying it is if their current carrier fails before the new one can come online and even then the Ark Royal would be a more likely option as they have the experience with British warships. The Brazilians want something they can use catapult aircraft off so it’s out of the question.
Otherwise when you look at people reviewing the options of potential helicopter carriers there’s Argentina, it has been touted by the new government as they try and fix their military but realistically that is not an option for them and is just a false statement to piss off the brits, the South Africans have had an interest in a helicopter carrier before to solidify their position however they would most likely want something with better troop carrying propositions and I believe will go for a new build LPD or would go with a proven affordable design such as the Mistral which would fit in with their European Navy. Otherwise there are the old suggestions like Canada but really they would be looking at new build and only once they can get current programs like the JSS on budget and things like the Frigate replacement set up. Some people have talked about Turkey but I cannot see this being their sort of vessel considering their plan to have a new build Navy of indigenous vessels and I do not think the Libya campaign really demonstrated that such an asset would be incredibly useful to them and considering the ease in which Syria could shoot down their fighter jets helicopters would be child’s play. Even if they did so it would probably be the Ark having had a peek around the Invincible they are scrapping over the Spanish carrier.
In ideal economic circumstances they could see rather easily and the smaller states, or those that are unfamiliar with such vessels; like New Zealand, Germany and others listed might look at them as an expletory option but those circumstances do not exist at the present time, nor will they in the foreseeable short term future when procurement will be viable so this is an unfortunate no go zone. A real shame as this is a unit that has not seen a great deal of strenuous service, compared to the Invincibles, so is probably in really good nack and would be a good buy for someone like New Zealand and Germany looking for a test bed asset for transport and humanitarian roles with the eye for a future new unit more suited to their specific needs.
Other than that there are no other real states that have the potential availability of funds, nor the support of NATO for such a procurement which is why the PdA, alongside the Garibaldi, Ark and old US harrier-carriers are not destined for a second life out there in the military world and will either end up as museums, on the seabed or in some breakers yard. And even the crazy rulers, of which there are a lot less, have seen the failure of the Thai carrier to do anything for their image.
The RN. One would be a good Ocean replacement, with the bonus of being able to operate as an emergency deck for F-35B. The dock would be surplus to current requirements, but I don't think it'd be worth modifying the design to remove it.
South Africa, India, Italy & Brazil all have requirements to acquire or replace LPDs or LHDs, but of those only Italy is looking to get a STOVL-capable ship, to replace Garibaldi & supplement Cavour, & the Italians will build their own, not buy or licence a design from Spain. South Africa & Brazil, especially the former, have budgetary constraints which might prevent them buying anything at all in the near future, or mean they'll settle for second-hand ships such as the Italian Santi.
t68
Well-Known Member
Both would be a good fit for the RNZN, but commonalty is not the end all with this type ship in the RNZN, the RSN have 4 Endurance class LPD on the books which the Endurance 160 is just a enlarged version of, RSN and ST Marine would be able to supply spare parts to a degree, one only has to look at HMAS Choules to see that even the RFA/MOD does not keep spare for everything at all times and they have been using Bay class ship for a number of years, commonalty is not the be all and end all for the RNZN.
If you were to look in the year 2020 and even 2030, what country do to think and predict would operate a Juan Carlos I type ship. What country would you be looking at to operating a LHA, LHD & LPD in the year 2020 & 2030.
For my my prediction would be South Africa, Canada, Thailand even some virtual unknowns like Brazil, Chile or even Venezuela.
For my my prediction would be South Africa, Canada, Thailand even some virtual unknowns like Brazil, Chile or even Venezuela.
I agree with you on the Thailand Angle, Only if Thailand can buy more helicopters for the HTMS Chakri Naruebet to support their Royal Thai Marines. HTMS Chakri Naruebet would be a perfect platform for the Royal Thai marines to launch Helicopter amphibious assault operations. The Royal Thai Navy would just have to buy more ASW/ASUW Helicopters and more transport helicopters for their Royal Thai marines.
She wouldn't be a perfect platform unless money was spent on modifications. She wasn't designed to house large numbers of soldiers, or allow them to move from their (missing) accommodation to the deck quickly, while carrying their gear.
At present she's a very imperfect amphibious assault platform.
Look at the changes made to HMS Ark Royal in her refit some years ago to see what would be needed.
At present she's a very imperfect amphibious assault platform.
Look at the changes made to HMS Ark Royal in her refit some years ago to see what would be needed.
If you are talking about the Principe de Asturias, it was used sometimes during exercises as a commando carrier, but there wasn't enough troop space to house marines for more than a couple of hours. The Principe de Asturias is a ship based on the Sea Control Ship concept of the 70s. It was designed to be used as an ASW carrier carrying ASW choppers. When the Harrier came, the spanish navy admirals saw the potential that plane had to add air power to a humble navy like the spanish one was. Actually, the spanish navy was the first navy to embark the Harrier, and that was in the R01 Dedalo, a converted WWII CVL, the ex USS Cabot.
The main issue is that, while the JCI can perform as an ASW carrier, troop transport, helicopter transport, assault ship, mobile command post for amphibious ops, amphibious vessel, etc... the PdA does only one thing, ASW escort.
Nowadays the concept is versatility.
An LHD like the Juan Carlos I can do many more things, and most of them equally if not better than the Principe de Asturias.
IMO, the PdA should be scrapped as soon as possible and if the Spanish navy wanted another big flight deck, another LHD should be built.
For any navy that doesn't have harriers, buying the principe de asturias doesn't make sense. And for the same price you can get a more capable ship that can perform the same and more functions more effectively.
Sorry Zhaow, but it has already been decided to retire the Principe de Asturias carrier.
you can see the news here in spanish
Morenés se reitera en la imposibilidad de mantener en activo el Príncipe de Asturias
This is an extract from an interview to the current spanish minister of defence, Pedro Morenes.
The iportant part is here
Sorry because I'm sure that some sentences are wrongly translated. I just don't like to translate anything with Google Translate. I prefer to do it by myself.
you can see the news here in spanish
Morenés se reitera en la imposibilidad de mantener en activo el Príncipe de Asturias
This is an extract from an interview to the current spanish minister of defence, Pedro Morenes.
The iportant part is here
Sorry because I'm sure that some sentences are wrongly translated. I just don't like to translate anything with Google Translate. I prefer to do it by myself.
Your right, It looks like due to Spain's economic issues, they forcing the Spanish Navy to decommission the Principe de Asturias carrier and replacing it with the Juan Carlos I. I wonder if the Juan Carlos I can take over the Principe de Asturias carrier roles and missions.