Scottish Independence

John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
KiwiRob said:
SNP are a single issue party, now that that issue has been put to bed for couple of decades what use is there for the SNP, I expect to see them much diminished in the next Scottish election.
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No, I expect the SNP to continue on. They will continue to threaten separation but will accept appeasement concessions from Westminster for the next 10-15 years and when polls indicate a possible separation win, they will force another vote like yesterday's. This is like the aftermath of the 1995 Quebec separation vote in Canada. Only aggressive counter measures to this BS will prevent attempts by Scottish nationalists and perhaps others to repeat this exercise. These counter measures should include no common currency, borders, no right of return, and aggressive asset reassignments along with anything else that comes to mind.
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Blackshoe said:
Shouldn't he also be hanged, drawn, and quartered, in keeping with time-honored tradition?/sarcasm
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A wet dream for some, I'm sure but rather politically incorrect these days. At least Salmond didn't blame the ethnics for the loss like Quebec's separatist leader Jacques Parizeau.
 
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phreeky

Active Member
Why is there such a divide amongst the Scots? It's easy to find Scots online claiming they 'hate' the English, which seems so odd to me. Is it a religious thing? I hope it doesn't flare up something worse as they seem very fired up about it.
 
gf0012-aust

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
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phreeky said:
Why is there such a divide amongst the Scots? It's easy to find Scots online claiming they 'hate' the English, which seems so odd to me. Is it a religious thing? I hope it doesn't flare up something worse as they seem very fired up about it.
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Without context on that photo I wouldn't assume that its just unionists

I've got friends in Glasgow who had their cars vandalised for having No stickers
 
RobWilliams

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Then on the lead up a 75 year old man got beaten up for canvassing for the No campaign, graffiti threatening voters to vote yes . . . .

Both sides have played parts.
 
John Newman

John Newman

The Bunker Group
t68 said:
very emotional time for the Scotts no need for pro unionist to rub it in, any tom dick and harry could see that a mile off

a lot different from the republican debate in Australia
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Glad to see the NO got up, was the sensible outcome.


Funny you talk about the Republican debate here in Oz, I certainly remember some 'extreme' views, but especially from the 'Republicans' that I was talking to prior to the referendum.

Most of the Republican's, or should I say, the more outspoken Republicans that I spoke to at the time, had the opinion that you were either for an Australian Head of State or you were somehow a 'monarchist' through and through, very black and white opinions.

In so many debates I had, I was called a monarchist because I didn't want a change, not that I cared one way or the other about the British Royalty, but it was more that, in my opinion, that if the 'system' wasn't broke, why fix it!! We had had this system of Government for a 100 years, and it seems to be working pretty well compared to crap going on in the rest of the world, so why change it??

But the other thing I think, why the referendum failed, was that the Republicans couldn't come up with a 'model' that satisfied everyone, there appeared to be an even 'bigger' divide between the various Republican factions than there was between republican and the 'so called' monarchists!!

As history has shown here in Oz, the population is basically 'conservative' when it come to big change, and if the argument for change is not clear, then the result is usually a NO.
 
t68

t68

Well-Known Member
John Newman said:
Glad to see the NO got up, was the sensible outcome.


Funny you talk about the Republican debate here in Oz, I certainly remember some 'extreme' views, but especially from the 'Republicans' that I was talking to prior to the referendum.

Most of the Republican's, or should I say, the more outspoken Republicans that I spoke to at the time, had the opinion that you were either for an Australian Head of State or you were somehow a 'monarchist' through and through, very black and white opinions.

In so many debates I had, I was called a monarchist because I didn't want a change, not that I cared one way or the other about the British Royalty, but it was more that, in my opinion, that if the 'system' wasn't broke, why fix it!! We had had this system of Government for a 100 years, and it seems to be working pretty well compared to crap going on in the rest of the world, so why change it??

But the other thing I think, why the referendum failed, was that the Republicans couldn't come up with a 'model' that satisfied everyone, there appeared to be an even 'bigger' divide between the various Republican factions than there was between republican and the 'so called' monarchists!!

As history has shown here in Oz, the population is basically 'conservative' when it come to big change, and if the argument for change is not clear, then the result is usually a NO.
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pretty much the way I see it also, for majority of Australians it was the model they did not like not the fact they were pro monarchist . only thing we have to change is this stupid preference voting formula sometime you have to be Einstein to figure out where you vote will end up if want a protest vote against the majors
 
S

swerve

Super Moderator
Nothing wrong with preference voting, as long as you don't go too far.

Simple single-member constituencies, with the option of a preference vote ("Vote for as many candidates as you wish, in order of preference") would give voters as much control as they wish to exercise over where their vote ends up.

Or just alternative vote: 1st & 2nd preferences only.

Requiring voters to rank every candidate is a bad idea, & I'm wary of multi-member constituencies.
 
Systems Adict

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
FormerDirtDart said:
A sure sign that the game is over:
The drunken brawls commence.

Scots clash in Glasgow after vote for independence fails Scots Clash in Glasgow After Independence Vote - NBC News
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Having seen what's been video'd &passed around on the social media sites, as well as only being 25 mins drive from the epicentre of all this, it was the wonderful & usual mix of youth, over-exuberance, alcohol/drugs, religion, football bigotry, mixed with a a focal point of the YES vs NO vote.

Comments from all over facebook in Scotland, demanding that order be restored & that those responsible are suitably punished for the shame, embarrassment & down right ridiculousness of the argument.

87% turnout, 55% NO, democracy has spoken, but no, a NEW group has appeared, The 45 (to signify the 45% of the population who voted YES). They're demanding ANOTHER referendum. They're posting clips taken from the media showing 'the voting process', where they claim mass-underhandedness.

All of it is a farce ! Votes get counted, people write down tallies, tables are used to place the paperwork on, while it's sorted & arranged.

But no, because a table is labelled 'NO' & it has a couple of thousand ballot papers on it & on 3 or 4 of the top ones, you can see YES boxes crossed, they call foul.

Yes, I'm not denying that there's a criminal investigation going on in the Glasgow area, because of voting fraud, where around 20 individuals either voted twice using their own & someone else's ballot paper, or they got a friend to go in without a polling card, claim to be 'an individual', vote & only for the real voter to turn up 30 mins later with the polling card & demanding to vote. ALL of this in one of the areas where YES won. It's sheer madness.

The population needs to forget Thursday & Friday now. There's a full general Election in 7 or 8 months & the people of Scotland need to unite, to ensure that they do get what they need & not to be short changed by the Westminster govt.

Unfortunately, 'The 45' don't quite see it that way !

But, getting back to the topic of Defence, now that the No's have won, this appeared with 24hrs !

BAE Systems to put £200m Scotstoun development contracts to tender | Glasgow & West | News

It means I'm moving office again (very quickly), as the building I work in will be demolished to make way for the development on the Scotstoun site.
 
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StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Splendid! Nice to see work progressing apace - I'm hoping for a single, efficient and competitive development.

Best of luck for the future mate :)
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
There have been reports of a renewed effort to attempt another Scottish referendum. This could create a Type 26 delay or perhaps a speed up in cutting steel to help prevent a "yes" vote. Thoughts?
 
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StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Neither - no point in speeding up cutting steel as that's already going to happen shortly, and no point in delaying - build the first in class in Rosyth and if the Scots pull the pin, shift production of the follow on units to a yard in the rUK - it'll take a while to negotiate the details of a separation, easily enough to switch production.

We've thrown enough money into propping up the Scottish yards vis the unwanted OPV's as is, worst case, two lead ships in Scotland and the remainder all South of the border, possibly in Portsmouth but there are plenty of facilities capable of working with block construction and the cranes at Rosyth are mobile if need be for instance...
 
K

Kampgruppe1970

New Member
t68 said:
Interestingly there seems to be a bit of a backlash within Scotland about a 2nd bite of the cherry,

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/180642


Could this be the start of the end for the SNP?
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no support has risen for the SNP now at 53% ... and that poll is open to anyone in the UK ... how many of them live in Scotland ??.... the unionist know they can't win hence their desperation to stop it because all 200,000 EU citizens in Scotland will now back independence and as we allow 16 & 17 year olds to vote their has been over 350K school leavers since the last referendum and that group is the most pro EU in Scotland and they won't get away with a 2nd vow like last time round ... and the NO campaign has no real candidate to lead them ... the writing is on the wall for the UK with the Scottish greens the SNP have a Yes majority in holyrood ... SNP themselves no longer have a outright majority in Holyrood due to the way seats are allocated via proportional representation ... the SNP had actually 250K more votes in 2016 than they did in 2011 ... PR votes SNP had more votes than the 3 unionist parties combined but only received 4 seats out of 56 seats
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
taskforce88 said:
Polls are meaningless but can you show me a poll that shows SNP at over 50%?
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True depending on how the questions are asked. Also, as recent elections have shown, people may often reverse their choice once in the privacy of a voting booth. Until Scotland has a firm offer to join the EU, nothing should happen until then. The UK may also make an offer to stay. IMHO voting for independence and then joining the EU and having Brussels mandate your newly formed state kind of sucks the big one!:D
 
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StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Looks like that one is on the back burner, the SNP ditched 21 seats and Nicola Sturgeon has admitted that the IndyRef2 push may have driven voters away from the party.

Hilariously, Alex Salmond, the former leader of the SNP lost his seat as well.

Whatever other upheaval we've to deal with in the coming years, Scottish independence is off the table for at least a couple of year, if not for the life of the current parliament.
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
For the time being I agree. If the current government collapses in 1-2 years and Labour gets in, any major cuts to the RN will remove an important reason for Scotland to remain in the U.K. Then there is the Brexit negotiations. I can't see the EU wanting another really small member with a questionable economy.
 
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