Russian Navy Discussions and Updates

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I concur with Feanor, his translation is correct. The news are from the point of view of the design bureau and are about frustrating delays in decision making. Still, I read something about declining interest in large warships including battle-cruisers and carriers, given that all major players are developing hyper-sonic missiles. Additionally, I recall that post events of 2014, when Russia lost the ability to procure gas turbine engines and gearboxes for their frigates and destroyers, they seriously contemplated building nuclear propulsion warships instead, since that technology is domestic. But as they developed their own domestic ability to manufacture, service, and repair conventional engines for frigates and destroyers over the years, the prospective size of their perspective nuclear cruisers began to grow until reaching Kirov-size, of which, that is Kirovs, they will in foreseeable future have 2 and perhaps even 3. Well, that is just my own thought, please feel free to correct as I am not expert in this subject.

Ushakov and Lazarev are both slated to be scrapped in 2021 if this article is correct :

 

SolarWind

Member
Ushakov and Lazarev are both slated to be scrapped in 2021 if this article is correct :
Apparently Ushakov is beyond repair, while decision on Lazarev is linked to expediency and availability of funds. Works on refit of Admiral Nakhimov continue.
 
Last edited:

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
On the subject of disappearing Soviet-era ships yet another 956 destroyer is planned for retirement. The ship has been in repairs since 2006, with little progress. Also slated for retirement and dismantling is the last 1134 "cruiser". I put cruiser in quotation marks because it's Soviet designation was BPK, same as the 1155 destroyers.


This comes as the 1164 cruiser Moskva is put into drydock, leaving the 11356s in their true position representing the workhorses of the Black Sea Fleet.


A photo of the planned LHDs to be laid down at Kerch this year, and a Lavina model LHD below for comparison.


The third 22350 is preparing for launch. It will be the first with Russian engines and powerplant. As things stand, these are the replacements for the Soviet era destroyers.


EDIT: First ship-launch trials of the hypersonic Tsirkon AShM were conducted in the White Sea using the 22350 frigates.


The UTE-1 torpedo has passed state trials. This is a major milestone, prior to this all Russian subs used the antiquated USET-80. The new type is an improvement, but is still far behind western counterparts. It remains to be seen whether the VMF can overcome lobbying and problems of internal politics and force the induction of a new modern torpedo.


EDIT2: An interesting photo set of a Bastion-P coastal AShM btln stationed on the arctic Archipelago Land of Frantz-Iosif.

 
Last edited:

SolarWind

Member
According to some unnamed but high-ranking source in the VMF, earlier reports by media that work on 22350M was halted were exaggerated. Work on design of 22350M continues at the Northern Design Bureau, while work to determine time constraints for the design, confirm all paper work, and allocate funds continues at the VMF.
 
Last edited:

Ananda

Well-Known Member
Russian Navy Pacific Fleet to receive three ships armed with Kalibr cruise missiles

Seems from what I see the Russian procurement, they want to have fleet of smaller ships with heavy armaments to screen the based while the offensive force will depend on Submarines.


Their Corvettes will be the mainstay of surface ships. Thus the role of surface ships more on securing the sea lines surrounding their bases, and securing safety of the submarines leaving the bases. This especially in the condition against peer to peer adversaries and not against smaller opponents.

Hope @Feanor can correct me on this assessment.
 
Last edited:

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Russian Navy Pacific Fleet to receive three ships armed with Kalibr cruise missiles

Seems from what I see the Russian procurement, they want to have fleet of smaller ships with heavy armaments to screen the based while the offensive force will depend on Submarines.


Their Corvettes will be the mainstay of surface ships. Thus the role of surface ships more on securing the sea lines surrounding their bases, and securing safety of the submarines leaving the bases. This especially in the condition against peer to peer adversaries and not against smaller opponents.

Hope @Feanor can correct me on this assessment.
The article is very vague and seems to think that small missile ships and patrol ships are all corvettes. The 21631s are basically just a carrier for 8 UKSK cells with minimal armament and unimpressive seaworthiness. The 22160s are patrol boats whose only armament is a 76mm gun. They have room to install a module with additional armament which means they can theoretically be fitted out for anti-ship, land attack, anti-air, or even anti-sub warfare. But only the first two modules currently exist, and none have been procured by the VMF. Only the 20380s are actual multi-role corvettes of which the BSF is currently set to receive 2. I'm also not sure about them receiving 22350 frigates. Currently there are only two completed ships, with 4 more under construction and 2 more to be laid down this year. If we grant completion of all 8 this decade (which is plausible though not a certainty) then I suspect half would go to the Northern Fleet and half to the Pacific. And this wouldn't even be enough to re-arm those two fleets, they would each still likely retain upgraded Soviet era destroyers (1155Ms).

Overall the future structure of the BSF currently looks like this;

1 1164 cruiser
3 11356 frigates
2 20380 corvettes
6 636.3 subs
6 22160 patrol boats
4+ 21631 small missile ships
0+ 22800 small missile ships

I suspect some of the smaller Soviet era warships will be retained for some time yet. And of course the fleet will retain 5+ BDKs, to be eventually replaced by something (though what is a bit of a mystery, some suggest that the 11711 upgraded will be mass produced to replace the bulk of them, I'm not quite so optimistic).
 

Yama

New Member
Apparently Ushakov is beyond repair, while decision on Lazarev is linked to expediency and availability of funds.
Interesting. Years ago I heard that Lazarev is actually in worst shape of the bunch. It went through paintjob though some years ago so at least in that point idea of modernization was not completely ruled out.
If Lider-project is dead, maybe it'll free funds for modernizing third Kirov. Though, given economic situation in the present, I see it very unlikely either of those projects will go forward.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Some updates.

The contract for two LHDs has been signed. The ship is, according to CAST, a project 23900 landing ship. They appear to be very similar to the Mistrals in design and purpose. They will be built at Zaliv shipyard in Crimea, a choice likely prompted by the need to load up the Crimean yards with orders.


The third 22350 frigate has been launched, the Admiral Golovko. It's planned for acceptance in 2021, though this may slip to 2022. The second, the Kasatonov, is still undergoing acceptance trials which it's set to complete this year.


There is a statement from the MinDef, Shoygu, claiming that an anti-submarine variant of the Be-200 will be shown at the naval parade in St. Petersburg. To the best of my knowledge there has not been a program for a new maritime patrol aircraft or even for a dedicated new anti-submarine warfare aircraft, so I strongly suspect that we're looking at a cleaned up and possibly upgraded Novella complex (from the Il-38N) mounted on a new aircraft. Either that or the minister mis-spoke. Originally the contract for the Be-200 envisioned 2 firefighting aircraft, and 4 search and rescue with the option for installing fire-fighting equipment. However I wouldn't put it past industrial lobbyists to push through the idea of adapting the plane for anti-submarine warfare use, especially since Russia doesn't currently have a new maritime patrol aircraft. However in my opinion such a project would be a mistake. Russia needs a true maritime patrol aircraft, not a hasty adaptation of already unimpressive systems on an airframe to save the production line of the aircraft.


The third 22800 small missile ship from Pella has started trials. It's also the first ship of the type to carry the Pantsyr SAM/AAA module instead of two AK-630 guns. Also the fourth 22800 for the Pacific Fleet is to be laid down this summer. Three are already under construction but none have been handed over to the VMF so far in the East.


Trials of the upgraded 1155M are planned for the second half of this year.


Some footage of the Baltic Fleet Forpost UAVs. Squadrons of the type seem to have been formed in the Northern, Pacific, and Baltic Fleets. I can't help but wonder why the Black Sea Fleet is last.


Experimental exploitation of the Ivan Gren BDK, first vessel of the new project 11711 class is continuing in the north. It's not participating in major exercises, which strongly suggests that problems persist. It seems that a new problem has been discovered and is currently being rectified on the second ship, at which point, if successful, the Ivan Gren will have to undergo similar modifications.


Finally the Moskva guided missile cruiser is completing dock repairs in Crimea. The decision to conduct repairs locally instead of sending it for a major upgrade up north, like the Ustinov, strongly suggests that the Moskva will be retired much sooner then the Ustinov, which raises questions. Currently there are no other viable candidates for Black Sea Fleet flagships. Perhaps they are hoping the first LHDs will be ready by then, but the choice is questionable.

 
Americans are developing and procuring various hypersonic weapon programs like China and Russia. 23560 is going to get because unlike the 22350, the 23560 will benefit from recent military and civilian projects. The S-500 will not go into production until 2025, so my end of decade start of building for 23560 is correct.



I have seen atleast one article of Adm.Nakhimov being the only major upgraded Kirov. The Peter the Great will not get partial upgrade of its engines and electronics. A.Krivoruchko statement about Tsirkon carriers confirms that article premiss.

Zaliv got Russian the LHD contract because of botched pace Severnaya Verf modernization. There numerous articles about being the favorites for LHD contract. Zaliv would get much work anyway. They would be my favorites for potential 23482 contracts since they're already building large auxiliary ships for the Russian Navy.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Active Member
Is
Americans are developing and procuring various hypersonic weapon programs like China and Russia. 23560 is going to get because unlike the 22350, the 23560 will benefit from recent military and civilian projects. The S-500 will not go into production until 2025, so my end of decade start of building for 23560 is correct.



I have seen atleast one article of Adm.Nakhimov being the only major upgraded Kirov. The Peter the Great will not get partial upgrade of its engines and electronics. A.Krivoruchko statement about Tsirkon carriers confirms that article premiss.

Zaliv got Russian the LHD contract because of botched pace Severnaya Verf modernization. There numerous articles about being the favorites for LHD contract. Zaliv would get much work anyway. They would be my favorites for potential 23482 contracts since they're already building large auxiliary ships for the Russian Navy.
Is there a reason why Pyotr Velikiy will not get an upgrade on its engines and electronics? Is it already advanced and modern enough that a heavy upgrade is not necassary? If the upgrade from Admiral Nakhimov is finished 5 years from now, then the Pyotr Velikiy will probably need newer and improved weapon systems, and that means also mew electronics/fire control systems.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Is

Is there a reason why Pyotr Velikiy will not get an upgrade on its engines and electronics? Is it already advanced and modern enough that a heavy upgrade is not necassary? If the upgrade from Admiral Nakhimov is finished 5 years from now, then the Pyotr Velikiy will probably need newer and improved weapon systems, and that means also mew electronics/fire control systems.
The Nakhimov upgrade took longer and cost more then originally anticipated. It's an open question whether the Petr Velikiy will get the same treatment, and likely depends on the state of OKR Lider over the next few years, but there's a definite possibility that it won't get upgraded.

EDIT: Consider this: yards are now able to consistently deliver relatively modern corvettes and frigates. The VMF could have a new corvette every year, a frigate ever other year over the next decade, if money is available. This might be a whole lot better then sinking mountains of cash into refitting a second Kirov.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Active Member
From which i understand the Knyaz Vladimir was recently commissioned on 28-05-2020. Knyaz Vladimir is the fourth of the Project 955 class, and will be the second of this class joining Russia's Northern Fleer.

Original article.

English version.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Active Member
Remarkable, i thought it wasn't even launched yet, the K-564 Arkhangelsk.

According to news published by the Russian press agency TASS on June 10, 2020, the Russian Navy Northern fleet is preparing to accept the cruise missile submarine Arkhangelsk latest Yasen-M-class SSGN (Ship Submersible Guided Nuclear) of project 885M. The commander will be appointed by the end of the year and the crew formed. The submarine is to join a division of the Russian Navy Northern fleet.

Source: Russian Navy Northern fleet prepares to accept Arkhangelsk Yasen-M cruise missile submarine
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Remarkable, i thought it wasn't even launched yet, the K-564 Arkhangelsk.

According to news published by the Russian press agency TASS on June 10, 2020, the Russian Navy Northern fleet is preparing to accept the cruise missile submarine Arkhangelsk latest Yasen-M-class SSGN (Ship Submersible Guided Nuclear) of project 885M. The commander will be appointed by the end of the year and the crew formed. The submarine is to join a division of the Russian Navy Northern fleet.

Source: Russian Navy Northern fleet prepares to accept Arkhangelsk Yasen-M cruise missile submarine
They're getting ahead of themselves. Even the Kazan acceptance is delayed until next year with state trials only starting in the fall. It appears to be connected to Tsirkon tests on the new type, but I strongly suspect the Arkhangel'sk will be delayed as well.


According to navy-korabel, whom I trust since he spends quite a lot of time tracking these things, the Arkhangel'sk hasn't been launched as of June 1st, and in the build order it's behind the Kazan', Novosibirsk, and Krasnoyarsk. I would put my money on TASS making a mistake in which sub they're talking about.

 

SolarWind

Member
The Nakhimov upgrade took longer and cost more then originally anticipated. It's an open question whether the Petr Velikiy will get the same treatment, and likely depends on the state of OKR Lider over the next few years, but there's a definite possibility that it won't get upgraded.

EDIT: Consider this: yards are now able to consistently deliver relatively modern corvettes and frigates. The VMF could have a new corvette every year, a frigate ever other year over the next decade, if money is available. This might be a whole lot better then sinking mountains of cash into refitting a second Kirov.
It is likely the VMF would want to test the Nakhimov upgrade before committing for the same on other Kirovs, especially given the cost of the refit and time it is taking. Peter-the-Great might not require extensive repairs and could even be sufficiently armed as is. If all the Nakhimov upgrades end up being successful, they could then consider installing the same on PtG and/or refitting Lazarev and adding another upgraded Kirov to the fleet. Availability of funds and resources is also an important consideration here. The VMF published a naval construction plan some time ago that linked the level of their warship building ambitions with oil prices. And oil prices have recently been near historic lows and are still low, so the VMF could be operating on their low funds plan.

Edit: It is also possible that, unlike on earlier Kirovs, the S-300FM that is installed on PtG could be upgradeable to carry more modern missiles from the S-400. So the Nakhimov style upgrade might not even be optimal for PtG.
 
Last edited:

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
It is likely the VMF would want to test the Nakhimov upgrade before committing for the same on other Kirovs, especially given the cost of the refit and time it is taking. Peter-the-Great might not require extensive repairs and could even be sufficiently armed as is. If all the Nakhimov upgrades end up being successful, they could then consider installing the same on PtG and/or refitting Lazarev and adding another upgraded Kirov to the fleet. Availability of funds and resources is also an important consideration here. The VMF published a naval construction plan some time ago that linked the level of their warship building ambitions with oil prices. And oil prices have recently been near historic lows and are still low, so the VMF could be operating on their low funds plan.

Edit: It is also possible that, unlike on earlier Kirovs, the S-300FM that is installed on PtG could be upgradeable to carry more modern missiles from the S-400. So the Nakhimov style upgrade might not even be optimal for PtG.
They're definitely not upgrading other Kirovs. Peter the Great is the only other ship considered for upgrades and even that's up the in air at this time. I suspect that if they're producing modern warships at a decent pace, they will likely not want to upgrade Peter the Great.
 

SolarWind

Member

The OSK (United Shipbuilding Corporation) is planning to deliver Nakhimov to the VMF in 2022.
According to a high-ranking Ministry of Defense official, the Nakhimov will operate Fort-M and Pantsir-M, as well as Zirkon. For the anti-sub role it will get Paket-NK and "Otvet" (Answer). I have never seen anything about this "Otvet". Any ideas what it is?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member

The OSK (United Shipbuilding Corporation) is planning to deliver Nakhimov to the VMF in 2022.
According to a high-ranking Ministry of Defense official, the Nakhimov will operate Fort-M and Pantsir-M, as well as Zirkon. For the anti-sub role it will get Paket-NK and "Otvet" (Answer). I have never seen anything about this "Otvet". Any ideas what it is?
It's likely a new version of the 91R anti-submarine missile. It's based on the Kalibr munition and carried in the same UKSK cells. Some sources seem to indicate that Otvet is an upgraded version of that munition, or that it features additional elements carried on the ship.

 
Top