Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[SamB]

How is that an argument?... our current ANZAC's don't have CEFAR and we work together just fine. People tend to forget that with the T-31 Arrowhead 140 program, the base price given is just the basic hull, no sensors or weapons etc as you get to choose what you want to add to it which obviously alters the cost. And as for Link16 it can be easily added to any vessel easily enough... including the Type 31

That's a great point Nighthawk. Wow, amazing. Bare bones hulls are really cheap. Awesome argument. Here's me thinking these guys are in a romantic relationship with the past lovingly and studiously placing each letter with such care and attention as to create lists of the past. I wish that I could hold the same empathy. It's something that I lack.

But as you say the arrowhead140 design is highly modular. Buying a standard arrowhead140 is really cheap. What could possibly go wrong. There will be no need to ask Babcock or a third party to integrate bespoke non standard kiwi tech into a British hull. You and Rob C and now warhawk would know more than me about the fortunes made in software upgrades, testing and engineering man hours.

The great and wonderful Royal Navy enjoys economies of scale for its Type 31 fleet. If New Zealand buys just two ships with a custom combat suite, NZ bears 100% of the non-recurring engineering costs. And again I wish that I had the brains to construct such a well written "argument."

While Nighthawk.NZ has a wonderful, magnificent brain he is correct that the RNZN operates fine today without CEAFAR, while the RAN moves rapidly toward a highly integrated, CEAFAR centric fleet this ANZAC project is all but bullshit. You're a bunch of dech apes and bellow deck simeons trying to play master and commander.

Operating just fine today with older Link 16 systems is very different from 2035+ combat operations. Future RAN operations will rely heavily on high-speed data sharing and cooperative engagement. If the Kiwi Type 31 lacks the high-end radar and processing power to contribute to that common picture, it and you, nighty, are a liability rather than a partner in an ANZAC program designed for a high-threat environment.

But I yield to your massive intellect Nighthawk.NZ. with people like you it's amazing New Zealand is still functional. I'm at a complete loss as to how you guys mooch off of the ADF so brazenly. If a UK or AU build deviates even slightly it's going to be an orphan ship that no one would want around in a high threat environment.

And quiet lying to yourselves that the goal is for NZDF to operate in a high threat environment just stop lying.

 

[recce.k1]

That's a great point Nighthawk. Wow, amazing. Bare bones hulls are really cheap. Awesome argument. Here's me thinking these guys are in a romantic relationship with the past lovingly and studiously placing each letter with such care and attention as to create lists of the past. I wish that I could hold the same empathy. It's something that I lack.

But as you say the arrowhead140 design is highly modular. Buying a standard arrowhead140 is really cheap. What could possibly go wrong. There will be no need to ask Babcock or a third party to integrate bespoke non standard kiwi tech into a British hull. You and Rob C and now warhawk would know more than me about the fortunes made in software upgrades, testing and engineering man hours.

The great and wonderful Royal Navy enjoys economies of scale for its Type 31 fleet. If New Zealand buys just two ships with a custom combat suite, NZ bears 100% of the non-recurring engineering costs. And again I wish that I had the brains to construct such a well written "argument."

While Nighthawk.NZ has a wonderful, magnificent brain he is correct that the RNZN operates fine today without CEAFAR, while the RAN moves rapidly toward a highly integrated, CEAFAR centric fleet this ANZAC project is all but bullshit. You're a bunch of dech apes and bellow deck simeons trying to play master and commander.

Operating just fine today with older Link 16 systems is very different from 2035+ combat operations. Future RAN operations will rely heavily on high-speed data sharing and cooperative engagement. If the Kiwi Type 31 lacks the high-end radar and processing power to contribute to that common picture, it and you, nighty, are a liability rather than a partner in an ANZAC program designed for a high-threat environment.

But I yield to your massive intellect Nighthawk.NZ. with people like you it's amazing New Zealand is still functional. I'm at a complete loss as to how you guys mooch off of the ADF so brazenly. If a UK or AU build deviates even slightly it's going to be an orphan ship that no one would want around in a high threat environment.

And quiet lying to yourselves that the goal is for NZDF to operate in a high threat environment just stop lying.

Honestly, please can we keep things civil and on track with actual RNZN discussion rather than forcing one's views and stating what the future holds based on the post Cold War peace dividend as those days and its thinking are over. Both RobC and Nighthawk have served, have inside knowledge on how the system works and don't need to be insulted.

 

[SamB]

Honestly, please can we keep things civil and on track with actual RNZN discussion rather than forcing one's views and stating what the future holds based on the post Cold War peace dividend as those days and its thinking are over. Both RobC and Nighthawk have served, have inside knowledge on how the system works and don't need to be insulted.

Everyone knows that your next decision could be your last. Sword of Damocles and all that. May the ADF drop it right on your head.

 

[spoz]

Why would T31 not have Link 16? It’s a de facto standard requirement across western navies. Link 22 likely to be as well. What it doesn’t have is CEC ; but then, nor does anybody SFAIK other than the US, Australia and Japan, and not every Australian ship is fitted or, again SFAIK, is planned to be; nor will most if any of the RN. And all those other ships plug seamlessly - well, virtually seamlessly - into coalition nets. Just because the RN haven’t announced it doesn’t mean it won’t be there. I don’t believe they have announced the presence of a SHOL planner either, but it’s pretty certain to be there as are many other bits of relatively minor kit that make up a modern warship.

 

[SamB]

It's a bit of a David and Goliath story. A lot of people believe that David and Goliath were fighting each other one on one. One was a Giant from the bronze age clade in the finest bronze armour with the finest bronze shields and spears going up against a mere Shepard with a single sling entering the dawning age of iron.

Link 16 and it's successor Link 22 is standard for any warship. It's a basic telephone line for a bare bones low cost treasury friendly ANZAC replacement. CEC on the other hand will be a nice to have "luxury" that misses the direction that RAN is headed.

Then there's the interoperability issue RAN isn't just investing heavily in CEC across its "future," double emphasis on future fleet they'll be designing future fleet tactics around it.

If the RNZN operates a Type 31 that tops out at Link 16/22, it can share radar tracks, but it cannot participate in the automated, real-time cooperative A2AD that the RAN and USN are building. In a high-threat Indo-Pacific scenario, a Kiwi ship without CEC or a highly advanced radar (like CEAFAR) cannot act as a true peer protector to an Australian task group.

The Royal Navy operates a mutli.tiered fleet with type 45 and type 26 that handles it's high end CEC stuff. The T-31 is there light general purpose frigate. There is going to be only one light general purpose frigate that comes with the required fitout as standard the only way to make it competitive on a cost basis is to put in an order for five. Or alternatively 2x T-31.

New Zealand doesn't have a multi tiered fleet it's 2x T-31 will represent its entire high end capability you'd be asking Babcock for the impossible at an un realistic prices. It'll come with inbuilt lock outs. No high end air defence and no drone swarming or taskforce integration.

The issue isn't that T-31 can't talk to RAN it can via link16. The issue is what it can say. For a nation of two combat hulls that can only join standard combat patrols rather than integrated into the array of ADF sensors and nods would represent a strategic step backwards that is misaligned with that DWP25.

Instead of 2x orphaned T-31 why not purchase some SOPVs, a LIFT program. Maybe some UAV and UUV and wait till the backend of SEA3000 when Australia have worked out all the kinks with mogami.

The reality is that New Zealand cannot afford to buy a first-of-class platform and then spend a fortune trying to force it into a box it wasn't designed for. A stripped-back, budget-friendly Type 31 leaves the RNZN isolated in a corner of the Pacific, looking backwards while the rest of our partners look forward.

If DWP25 is to mean anything, it must acknowledge that our current naval procurement path is a dead end. We need a pragmatic, two-phased approach to bridge the capability gap,, safely.

So NZ is going to have to invest immediately in a SOPV and LIFT program that doubles as a sovereign defence capability. Rapidly adopt long ranged UUV and UAV that networks with the ADF at a fraction of the cost of frigate hulls.

Sit out the early years of high risk production and low end marketing and wait for the back end of SEA3000.

By letting the RAN absorb the financial shocks, engineering headaches, and supply chain kinks of the Mogami class first, NZ can eventually buy into a mature, fully integrated capability.

Until then, buying two orphaned, under-gunned Type 31s isn't a strategy. It's just an expensive way to pretend we still have a navy while leaving our closest ally to do all the heavy lifting.

Don't think for a second that choosing cheap means cheap. Wait for SEA3000.

 

[Rob c]

he reality is that New Zealand cannot afford to buy a first-of-class platform and then spend a fortune trying to force it into a box it wasn't designed for. A stripped-back, budget-friendly Type 31 leaves the RNZN isolated in a corner of the Pacific, looking backwards while the rest of our partners look forward.

Read this, The AH140 is a significantly larger hull that can be fitted with multiple systems to uit the customers requirements.

Type 31 frigate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

and they are available in a timely manner

 

[SamB]

Read this, The AH140 is a significantly larger hull that can be fitted with multiple systems to uit the customers requirements.

Type 31 frigate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

and they are available in a timely manner

It's got to be Australian Built Rob c. New Zealands logistics is way to fragile to be going 10,000km in either direction for legacy technology. Least if Aussie ship makers are selected NZDF will have every MOTS/COTS at its finger tips.

 

[Viper92]

It's got to be Australian Built Rob c. New Zealands logistics is way to fragile to be going 10,000km in either direction for legacy technology. Least if Aussie ship makers are selected NZDF will have every MOTS/COTS at its finger tips.

I doubt the Australians will give us access to the first slots on their locally built Mogamis. So if NZ does choose aus built ships then we'll be waiting until after 2035 at the earliest for the first deliveries. Best to go with whoever can get us the boats before the current ships fall apart regardless of if they're built far away.

 

[SamB]

I doubt the Australians will give us access to the first slots on their locally built Mogamis. So if NZ does choose aus built ships then we'll be waiting until after 2035 at the earliest for the first deliveries. Best to go with whoever can get us the boats before the current ships fall apart regardless of if they're built far away.

Now we are supposed to beat the clock of our own negligence by rushing procurement and selecting whoever...,

Y'know, it's such a brilliantly wonderful comment only a mother could like, like the perfect breakfast. To make the perfect breakfast burn the toast. Poke holes in it try to scratch the burnt bits off. Leave egg shells in the eggs, put a tea bag in the orange juice and Viper92 mum says that's brilliant. Super dopa breakfast.

Is there a reason why anyone believes that by 2035 2x ANZAC replacement will appear?

The final sitting day is 24/09/2026. Let's be generous and combined weapons treaties, legalese and design so that's two years. And least be generous and assume construction and personal surge in conjunction adds 6 years bringing us two 8 years or 2031.

The only thing is that's when defence spending is projected to rise to 2% so you can even start paying for shit until then!

 

[At lakes]

Now we are supposed to beat the clock of our own negligence by rushing procurement and selecting whoever...,

Y'know, it's such a brilliantly wonderful comment only a mother could like, like the perfect breakfast. To make the perfect breakfast burn the toast. Poke holes in it try to scratch the burnt bits off. Leave egg shells in the eggs, put a tea bag in the orange juice and Viper92 mum says that's brilliant. Super dopa breakfast.

Is there a reason why anyone believes that by 2035 2x ANZAC replacement will appear?

The final sitting day is 24/09/2026. Let's be generous and combined weapons treaties, legalese and design so that's two years. And least be generous and assume construction and personal surge in conjunction adds 6 years bringing us two 8 years or 2031.

The only thing is that's when defence spending is projected to rise to 2% so you can even start paying for shit until then!

i think viper92 said the the NZ navy would have to wait until after 2035 not as you have suggested as by 2035.

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

That's a great point Nighthawk. Wow, amazing. Bare bones hulls are really cheap. Awesome argument. Here's me thinking these guys are in a romantic relationship with the past lovingly and studiously placing each letter with such care and attention as to create lists of the past. I wish that I could hold the same empathy. It's something that I lack.

But as you say the arrowhead140 design is highly modular. Buying a standard arrowhead140 is really cheap. What could possibly go wrong. There will be no need to ask Babcock or a third party to integrate bespoke non standard kiwi tech into a British hull. You and Rob C and now warhawk would know more than me about the fortunes made in software upgrades, testing and engineering man hours.

The great and wonderful Royal Navy enjoys economies of scale for its Type 31 fleet. If New Zealand buys just two ships with a custom combat suite, NZ bears 100% of the non-recurring engineering costs. And again I wish that I had the brains to construct such a well written "argument."

While Nighthawk.NZ has a wonderful, magnificent brain he is correct that the RNZN operates fine today without CEAFAR, while the RAN moves rapidly toward a highly integrated, CEAFAR centric fleet this ANZAC project is all but bullshit. You're a bunch of dech apes and bellow deck simeons trying to play master and commander.

Operating just fine today with older Link 16 systems is very different from 2035+ combat operations. Future RAN operations will rely heavily on high-speed data sharing and cooperative engagement. If the Kiwi Type 31 lacks the high-end radar and processing power to contribute to that common picture, it and you, nighty, are a liability rather than a partner in an ANZAC program designed for a high-threat environment.

But I yield to your massive intellect Nighthawk.NZ. with people like you it's amazing New Zealand is still functional. I'm at a complete loss as to how you guys mooch off of the ADF so brazenly. If a UK or AU build deviates even slightly it's going to be an orphan ship that no one would want around in a high threat environment.

And quiet lying to yourselves that the goal is for NZDF to operate in a high threat environment just stop lying.

Whats with the attitude dude... yah seem to have a chip on the shoulder ole boy... simmer down lad take a chill pill...

My point is/was ... we don't even know which hull they are choosing let lone the sensors and weapons or even if they want to change the CMS or stick with an upgraded version CMS 330. I mean shit dude they have only just started to seriousily look at their options.

And no matter which hull is choosen there will be changes from the basic out fit to meet RNZN needs and yes the Type 31 is modular (they all are these days) and I am sure if they go with the Mogami there will be some changes required to met the RNZN needs.

Where did I say that NZ would get the the standard Arrowhead 140? as techincally there isn't one... Theres the RN Type 31 variant.... is that what you mean??? Which means if NZG wanted CEAFAR or equivalent it is possible on the Arrowhead 140. Also where did I say I am all in or want the Arrowhead 140 ... Personally I want to see the Mogami in the RNZN service. And I have said along I want to get back to a frigate navy.

The only thing I have heard they (RNZN) want to truly keep is the MK45 5" main gun which is a plus for the Mogami. Because it would be a bit of reworks on the Type 31 below decks.

While Nighthawk.NZ has a wonderful, magnificent brain he is correct that the RNZN operates fine today without CEAFAR, while the RAN moves rapidly toward a highly integrated, CEAFAR centric fleet this ANZAC project is all but bullshit. You're a bunch of dech apes and bellow deck simeons trying to play master and commander.

The name calling is not really making you look that smart either... you missed the whole point and then went on a tangent abouth nothing and what was said we have all heard before...

 

[Todjaeger]

I doubt the Australians will give us access to the first slots on their locally built Mogamis. So if NZ does choose aus built ships then we'll be waiting until after 2035 at the earliest for the first deliveries. Best to go with whoever can get us the boats before the current ships fall apart regardless of if they're built far away.

Delivery some time after 2040 is more likely, unless Australia is willing to give up some of their production slots. This is also making the assumption that the current build programme schedule holds, despite it being several years before the new facility is completed and well before construction of the first of eight vessels has even begun. The current delivery schedule could very easily slip as issues and delays are very possible. As I have mentioned before on more than one occasion, IMO the current Australian delivery schedule seems somewhat optimistic.

Delivery of the first Australian-built Mogami-class to the RAN might happen as early as 2032 or 2033, but I suspect a 2034 or 2035 delivery is more likely. So for people that keep insisting on NZ getting Australian-built frigates, they really need to have a plan or explanation on how the RNZN frigate force would be sustained until Australian production slots could deliver, or how Australian production could be dramatically accelerated to meet the needs of both the RAN and RNZN.

Despite more than one request, no such explanation has been offered.

 

[Tbone]

Does New Zealand have any construction or manufacturing capability? If I was NZ I’d look to Damen to build their new drone carriers.. perfect all rounder for patrol, logistics and humanitarian aid etc.. low manning and useful to an Australian taskforce.. actually bring something different to the fight. And low manning too. Bring in 4 of these and then plead with Australia for spots on the list for the Mogami. I’d wish we build the damen drone carriers instead of the Arafura class

 

[Todjaeger]

Does New Zealand have any construction or manufacturing capability? If I was NZ I’d look to Damen to build their new drone carriers.. perfect all rounder for patrol, logistics and humanitarian aid etc.. low manning and useful to an Australian taskforce.. actually bring something different to the fight. And low manning too. Bring in 4 of these and then plead with Australia for spots on the list for the Mogami. I’d wish we build the damen drone carriers instead of the Arafura class

For shipping, not really anymore AFAIK. There had been facilities in Whangarei, but Tenix closed the one used to build the IPV's for Project Protector following delivery of the IPV's back in 2008, and Shipco closed in 2013.

 

[SamB]

For shipping, not really anymore AFAIK. There had been facilities in Whangarei, but Tenix closed the one used to build the IPV's for Project Protector following delivery of the IPV's back in 2008, and Shipco closed in 2013.

Well there is the dry dock at Devonport. I know it's a bit ancient. It would have to be upgraded with a shed and gantry crane as well as the surrounding buildings. We wouldn't be able to produce the engine rooms, engine blocks or turbines etc and communications masks but if it were a modular design maybe those hard to make things could be made elsewhere and assembled in NZ.

 

[SamB]

Matter a fact RNZN had a massive testing tank what ever happened to that and RNZAF used to have a wind tunnel you can put those on my wishlist.

 

[spoz]

You only need a testing tank if you are going to design ships - that seems unlikely in the NZ (or indeed the Australian) context.

On the Portugese drone carrier; this is a guess, but an informed one. At the price quoted I reckon she is built to merchant standards. Nothing wrong with that for non combat purposes, but not a good idea in an operational area. And, ar present she is unarmed.

 

[SamB]

Integrating USV, UAV and UUV offers a contrast in design philosophy while the T-31 is a good platform as a drone mothership the mogami is highly automated and heavier armament.

The T-31 is being marketed as a flotilla leader.

If the goal is mass logistics and transport treating T-31 like a mini drone carrier hauling large quantities of drones across the ocean.

Or choose mogami with its computational technology, stealth better weapons load. And being integrated into long range drones.

 

[John Fedup]

Integrating USV, UAV and UUV offers a contrast in design philosophy while the T-31 is a good platform as a drone mothership the mogami is highly automated and heavier armament.

The T-31 is being marketed as a flotilla leader.

If the goal is mass logistics and transport treating T-31 like a mini drone carrier hauling large quantities of drones across the ocean.

Or choose mogami with its computational technology, stealth better weapons load. And being integrated into long range drones.

Both ships are comparable in size and armament. T-31s from hull 3 onwards will have a 32 cell Mk41. As Nighthawk mentioned the T-31 has a 57 mm gun and switching to a 127 mm would be a PITA. T-31 is all diesel, the FFM is diesel/MT30 gas turbine so a small speed advantage for the latter. As many posts here mention, delivery is critical for the RNZN. Also mentioned, there is no way Australia can deliver FFMs in time (even Japan would struggle to deliver before 2035 even if they diverted some from their own navy). Considering the fools running the UK at the moment, RN T-31s could be diverted to NZ, just like T-26s going to Norway! Regardless of selection, delivery will be concern and this will only worsen as NZ pollies piss about ignoring defence decisions until $hit hits the fan.