Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Those numbers would be fine if NZDF didn't have to change the way they operate. NZDF were using the same radios from Vietnam. Look mate NZDF is changing the way they operate. A lot of people claim automation reduces manpower pressure or whatever. Hydraulics and airlines those can be automated but a single use reboot, there's no spare parts division at Bunnings.

On a 2:1 ratio assuming 5 frigates because 5 is the minimum plus the 2-3 LHDs mind you and auxiliary crew and now UUVs etc. Easily 3000-4000 personal just for navy.
Looks like guessing to me, when the RNZN operated the Royalist with a crew of 500+ plus 4 frigates and other ships they were less than 3000 personal. Crews today are far smaller, a Mogami is 90 compared with an ANZAC of over 170 and a type 12/leander 260.
The problem with double the number is the lack of facilities to accommodate the numbers, You would have to provide double the accommodation, houses,messes,and other items. plus you would need huge increases in combat equipment, ships, aircraft,new bases or large increases in existing bases etc to make use of the personel, the cost would be huge, far beyond even the estimates of 3% gdp I gave for a balanced force and this is just the tip of the iceberg for extra costs
 

SamB

Member
Looks like guessing to me, when the RNZN operated the Royalist with a crew of 500+ plus 4 frigates and other ships they were less than 3000 personal. Crews today are far smaller, a Mogami is 90 compared with an ANZAC of over 170 and a type 12/leander 260.
The problem with double the number is the lack of facilities to accommodate the numbers, You would have to provide double the accommodation, houses,messes,and other items. plus you would need huge increases in combat equipment, ships, aircraft,new bases or large increases in existing bases etc to make use of the personel, the cost would be huge, far beyond even the estimates of 3% gdp I gave for a balanced force and this is just the tip of the iceberg for extra costs
The Public Works Act allows the government to simply acquire land which is the bulk of project costs. You raise good points Rob c. Arguably New Zealand once had an open and efficient economy. However, the days of cheap oil and easy security is, one more time, over.

Increasing personal numbers isn't about being aggressive it's about being capable. If NZDF doesn't have the personal numbers to maintain a regional and interoperable presence in the South Pacific and abroad then political leadership will effectively be asking our poorer cousins permission or to often leaning on Australia to bail us out.

We need a combat capable force because at the end of the day if you can't fight for it you don't own it.
 
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Warhawk

Member
Hopefully with new Minister to be blunt NZ needs grow some balls when defence time is not NZ side 20 plus years off nothing but talk . Judith what did she buy 2 commercial aircraft and possible new naval helicopters but nothing signed.
 

Nighthawk.NZ

Well-Known Member
Hopefully with new Minister to be blunt NZ needs grow some balls when defence time is not NZ side 20 plus years off nothing but talk . Judith what did she buy 2 commercial aircraft and possible new naval helicopters but nothing signed.
problem is they have to get in again before any decisions are made
 

Warhawk

Member
Big Problem for NZ is finding issues that are real not creating issue's that are not. It's about time Political leaders are accountable as Pollies are starting to realise in Australia. As West start to unwind will be interesting where we head . Australia has gone debt free to with 20 years Federal and State debt 1.5 trillion and not including councils debt crazy there is few be should be few in prison.
 

SamB

Member
Repetition always increases something. It either strengthens confusion or makes way for clarity. It stabilises truth or weakens awareness of it. Step by step repeated choices will shape the inner workings of New Zealand until direction becomes visible in our way of living. This understanding changes the way that failure is seen.

Failure should not be treated as a final conclusion or a reason to despair instead it is a moment that reveals direction. It exposes internal direction and shows what needs correction. What matters most is not the state of disrepair but the response after it. People can remain in that state or return to awareness and realignment afterwards.

Returning, shapes growth more than failure ever can. In the same way routine begins to carry more weight, daily actions, habits, conversations and private decisions will no longer be seen as "pro war" but is a part of the process that is quietly shaping a whole of nation defence strategy.

Even what is seen as insignificant contributes towards something larger over time, at the same time, time itself takes on a new role. Instead of being seen as unlimited in practice it is recognised as finite and constantly moving forward without pause. This creates seriousness without panic, clarity without exaggeration and removes the illusion that there is always enough time to correct direction later.

What is postponed does not disappear. It accumulates, it becomes a part of the existing pattern. Because of this every moment gains importance not through fear but through awareness.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Is there any confirmation on changes to the CMS (and radar systems) between the Japan and Australian builds? I seem to recall there was much discussion on such matters on the RAN thread in the past, but unclear what the Aus Govt have stipulated since.
Apart from the integration of ESSM Block II and NSM, Australian crypto and language, I am not aware of any other changes to the combat system of the Mogami FFM. Certain physical changes will need to be made in relation to different launchers for NSM, accomodation for the MH-60R helicopter and it’s weapon suite, ,Australian service seaboats, likely the medium calibre gun systems of choice, and probably the torpedo system (either MU-90 or Mk.54).

Otherwise, the first 3 at least will be at the same spec, the Japanese ships are.

The following batches is where we ”may” see more RAN preferred changes. Or maybe “not”, once it gets a good look at the Japanese systems…
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
ncreasing personal numbers isn't about being aggressive it's about being capable. If NZDF doesn't have the personal numbers to maintain a regional and interoperable presence in the South Pacific and abroad then political leadership will effectively be asking our poorer cousins permission or to often leaning on Australia to bail us out.
You seem to think that just increasing the numbers leads to a better NZDF, it does not in it self. There is a hole raft of things required to achieve significant inprovement and one of the least talked about is TIME. The time neaded to train people, then the time neaded for them to gain experience in the first level of their calling, then the time needed for promotion to the next level and the time needed to gain experence and knowlege at that level and so on etc. As an example it has been calculated that should the RNZAF whish to restart the ACF it would take 15 years for it to reach the required level of experties. the same applys to other forces, battalion comand structures don't appear over night. ships comand structures are the same. Numbers mean nothing if the structures, equipment and experience is not in place to except the increased numbers. To significantly increase the combat capability does not take weeks or months or even years, you are looking at a decade as a start point.
Throwing large numbers of personel at the problem does not fix the problem after 35years of cronnic underfunding, the problem requires years of hard work and political commitment and money, lots of money.
 

SamB

Member
You seem to think that just increasing the numbers leads to a better NZDF, it does not in it self. There is a hole raft of things required to achieve significant inprovement and one of the least talked about is TIME. The time neaded to train people, then the time neaded for them to gain experience in the first level of their calling, then the time needed for promotion to the next level and the time needed to gain experence and knowlege at that level and so on etc. As an example it has been calculated that should the RNZAF whish to restart the ACF it would take 15 years for it to reach the required level of experties. the same applys to other forces, battalion comand structures don't appear over night. ships comand structures are the same. Numbers mean nothing if the structures, equipment and experience is not in place to except the increased numbers. To significantly increase the combat capability does not take weeks or months or even years, you are looking at a decade as a start point.
Throwing large numbers of personel at the problem does not fix the problem after 35years of cronnic underfunding, the problem requires years of hard work and political commitment and money, lots of money.
I trust NZDFs excellence. After years of neglect a sudden mountain of cash won't make allies trust NZDF capability. A reputation for excellence is what attracts high quality recruits and keeps allies willing to work with NZDF and that starts with the Prime Minister.

Money can buy marketing (telling people they're great). Money cannot buy competency (actually being great). DCP25 hopes to address this point with NZD$12 billion over four years aimed at lifting defence spending to 2% of GDP over eight years.

Over 70% of defence infrastructure has less than 20 years of useful life.

As a professional employer living in fragile and aged facilities directly affects morale. The Defence Estate Revitalisation program started under The Honorable Ron Marks ten years ago attempts to fix this, but it will take years more political commitment to move NZDF from underfunded levels to a combat capable status once again.

Building NZDFs reputation is not a maybe next term project it requires consistency across electoral cycles. 50.3% of New Zealanders are in favour of increased defence spending which provides political cover for long term spending. New Zealand is looking to deepen integration with the ADF to borrow their scale providing more cover.

The sinking of HMNZS Manawanui teaches how quickly reputation is damaged. It shows that with personal numbers consistent with a benign strategic environment, a single loss isn't just a massive financial blow; it's a massive hit to operational tempo and global standing that takes years to recover. Ultimately DCP25 is a 15 year road map built, as noted previously upon 10 years of wasted till next term projects.

Money buys time, but reputation only returns when NZDF consistently proves it is capable of imposing the collective will of New Zealand on an increasingly volatile Indo-Pacific.

(Please excuse my verbiage) The ANZAC project is a buy now pay later strategy for increasing NZDF capability by leaning into the planned ANZAC framework NZDF effectively borrows the reputation and operational umbrella from the ADF. Moving NZDF personal through the ADF towards plug and play capability buying the same radios, munitions and logistics removes the decades long learning curve of developing doctrine.

The risk of this shortcut to NZDF is becoming a subsidiary of the ADF. If NZDF rely to heavily on the ADF for brains and teeth will risk losing operational independence from Canberra if our interests ever deviate even slightly.

To rebuild the reputation of NZDF, new Zealand must provide value add - niche capability that the ADF doesn't have - rather than being a smaller version of the ADF.

Simply, put in an order for:

5x mogami <<<that is payback.

Some weapon carrying variants of Hawkie and increase C-130 and P-8 fleets to 8-12 and 6-8 respectively building on the ADFs own upgrade schedule <<< this is niche.

Another niche argument would be to carry Sea Ceptor over to a Kiwi Mogami which provides a specific layer of protection to joint task forces that doesn't mirror the ADF.

If NZDF only focuse on niche the risk is losing operational independence or lead our own operations. The goal is to be so integrated that each force can deploy interchangeable units moving beyond just buying the same kit and into sharing the same brain at an operational level.

This is not a maybe next term project.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I trust NZDFs excellence. After years of neglect a sudden mountain of cash won't make allies trust NZDF capability. A reputation for excellence is what attracts high quality recruits and keeps allies willing to work with NZDF and that starts with the Prime Minister.
while a sudden mountain was never said to solve anything, additional money can improve the terms and conditions to retain servicemen so that their knowledge can be used to best advantage. while retention has improved recently this I believe is more a function of the current poor employment figures than a long term solution. As a 20 year veteran of the RNZAF (1964 to1984) and having work with or along side of units from the USAF,RAAF, RSAFand RMAF I am very much aware of what leads to trust and respect and that is superiors results gained from training, continuous practice and results and having a stable team to work with and we got this stable team from having attractive terms and conditions that was not constantly changing. We also had equipment that allowed us to be compedative.
,
 

SamB

Member
while a sudden mountain was never said to solve anything, additional money can improve the terms and conditions to retain servicemen so that their knowledge can be used to best advantage. while retention has improved recently this I believe is more a function of the current poor employment figures than a long term solution. As a 20 year veteran of the RNZAF (1964 to1984) and having work with or along side of units from the USAF,RAAF, RSAFand RMAF I am very much aware of what leads to trust and respect and that is superiors results gained from training, continuous practice and results and having a stable team to work with and we got this stable team from having attractive terms and conditions that was not constantly changing. We also had equipment that allowed us to be compedative.
,
However, the sudden mountain of cash "did appear 10 years ago", reappeared in 2025 as additional spending and arguably will appear again in 15 years time due to maintaining the combat capability status of NZDF. Not because of promises made during election campaigns but due to what (retired) Major General John Howard articulates as "what capability does New Zealand require."

Remuneration and benefits is not a wish list I agree with totally. It acknowledges the status of those privileged to serve in an increasingly hostile environment not of their own making. This shift from political convenience towards evidence based defence spending didn't appear out of nowhere. Long term spending, equipping NZDF, and paying personnel to match the risks was kicked off by Ron Marks as he once said we have to "keep ahead of the bow wave" and that bow wave is crossing back over.

As all these deferred costs crest they can consume the entire available budget forcing NZDF to choose between current capabilities or new ones. General John Howard also used the concept to argue that spending shouldn't be about catch up on old promises but it's about what specific capabilities NZ needs to increase NZDF risk tolerance such as digital and information systems known to me as "the brains at an operational level".

Shifting focus from buying time with one off budget spikes towards a sustainable spending track of sometimes 3% but never below 2% budget forecasts IMHO prioritises personnel as the fundamental capability.

Ultimately the goal of the sudden realignment doesn't ensure that the sudden mountain of cash doesn't just fill holes from decades of neglect. But builds upon something permanent.

Frigate Classes come and go but the professionalism and excellence will remain.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
You seem to think that just increasing the numbers leads to a better NZDF, it does not in it self. There is a hole raft of things required to achieve significant inprovement and one of the least talked about is TIME. The time neaded to train people, then the time neaded for them to gain experience in the first level of their calling, then the time needed for promotion to the next level and the time needed to gain experence and knowlege at that level and so on etc. As an example it has been calculated that should the RNZAF whish to restart the ACF it would take 15 years for it to reach the required level of experties. the same applys to other forces, battalion comand structures don't appear over night. ships comand structures are the same. Numbers mean nothing if the structures, equipment and experience is not in place to except the increased numbers. To significantly increase the combat capability does not take weeks or months or even years, you are looking at a decade as a start point.
Throwing large numbers of personel at the problem does not fix the problem after 35years of cronnic underfunding, the problem requires years of hard work and political commitment and money, lots of money.
Time is indeed a bugger. WRT re-establishing an ACF, is there any way to reduce the 15 year restart time? For example, bringing in (aka snatching) RAAF or RAF personnel with experience on F-35s to work with RNZAF members speed things up? Who knows, if Canada abandons the F-35, there will be some RCAF members looking for work in a nicer climate. I guess other NATO members might be interested as well.
 

SamB

Member
Not to preempt Rob c reply but this is the RNZN thread. At the risk of the mod team punishment for engaging in fantasy fleetism. Sky ramps could be installed on those hypothetical LHDs navy is supposed to order. A hypothetical 5th gen STOLV ACF could attend more than one red flag per year. That would definitely turbo charge a pipeline of pilots and recruitment and training more generally.
 

SamB

Member
What mountain of cash?
The average in the 1980's was 2.5% GDP with a high of 3% and a Low of 2.2%, the average in the last 25 years is less than half that with some spikes due to equipment purchases, not exactly any mountains.
10 years ago when the then government announced a twenty billion like for like replacement program of major assets there was accompanying business cases, arguments for it. To date the total amount over the previous 10 years is about 29.5 billion due to delays and other political moves short changed NZDF of at least 10 billion by my guestimate thanks in no small part to till next termism.

Over the next 15 years the government according to its own bipartisan rhetoric is projected to spend one hundred billion. There has been no business cases or any arguments that resembles personal lead changes and unwise selections of below combat capable capabilities such as the incoming A321 commercial airliners.

Sure, it's catch up and replacement spending in theory, in practice? It's life extensions. As soon as the government fills one hole it wipes the entire budget on unwise time sensitive choices.

Without the rigor of public business cases to justify 100 billion the 2025 DCP 15 year road map this theoretical 100 billion risks lumping NZDF with a combat light force with a mountain of cash spent, but not necessarily a mountain of capability gained.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
10 years ago when the then government announced a twenty billion like for like replacement program of major assets there was accompanying business cases, arguments for it. To date the total amount over the previous 10 years is about 29.5 billion due to delays and other political moves short changed NZDF of at least 10 billion by my guestimate thanks in no small part to till next termism.
You appear to be mixing up operational expenditure and capital expenditure. Over the period from the $20b capital expenditure commitment, approximately $9b was spent and the government reallocated the remainder in the recent announced $11b DCP and the $100b is not capital expenditure. and comes in at about 1.5% GDP, not something to get excited about.
Realistically defence needs to firstly be able to defend our freedom and sovereignty then contribute to regional defence.
 

SamB

Member
You appear to be mixing up operational expenditure and capital expenditure.
Umm, yes, I did.

Over the period from the $20b capital expenditure commitment, approximately $9b was spent and the government reallocated the remainder in the recent announced $11b
RNZN should have received 2-4x SOPV and 2x ANZAC replacement instead they're down 1x Manawanui.

Got a handful of new missiles ANZAC and protector life extensions instead of new builds.

The ANZAC replacement and SOPV programs doesn't go away because the government spent the money.

A build program is going to have to be developed.

There's two years for the legalese stuff

Two years for design

6 years for construction

8 years for personal surge

Y'know you're standard 10-15 year raise train and sustain program.

DCP and the $100b is not capital expenditure. and comes in at about 1.5% GDP,
In 15 years time two things might happen.

A couple of ANZAC replacement and 2x SOPV appear (unlikely).

Or NZDF goes full drone swarm. Or something more exotic.

But this 100 billion mountain of cash is fine in theory. In practice it should be 150 billion at least to coupe with the rigour of high tempo training a regional interoperable force.

not something to get excited about.
We'll see.

Realistically defence needs to firstly be able to defend our freedom and sovereignty then contribute to regional defence.
How?

The governments priorities are wack. They choose announcements and delays over prioritising budget announcements.

I have my unprofessional bias. Perhaps you have a professional opinion for how to prioritise so.. how?
 
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