Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[beegee]

The RNZN Leander-class FF had Mk 32 LWT launchers, but no Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS. I have not been able to confirm one way or another whether or not the Mk 32 LWT were reused or not.

You seriously didn't know the Leanders carried Phalanx at the end of their careers?

And you don't need to confirm it because I just told you it happened. I watched them do it.

Try being a bit more polite when replying OK

 

[Todjaeger]

Hi Tod, those local COTS-sourced systems (from the '80's/'90's IIRC) and everything else installed prior, would have have been binned when L-3 undertook the comprehensive systems upgrades from the mid-2000's to the mid-2010's, which involved stripping out all pre-existing equipment and wiring etc.

Eg from RNZAF news a new glass-cockpit was installed and "the Tactical Rail (Tacrail) has been completely refitted with modern sensors, communication and data management systems" and from "Timing is Everything" pages 122-123 talks about the Surveillance Radar, Electronic Surveillance Measures (ESM), Electro-optics systems and Acoustics processors chosen etc.


Fully agree, this would be the tricky part depending on what the replacement aircraft is, what systems that aircraft was originally designed for, what systems would need to be integrated if undertaking an orphan upgrade (and at the customers expense and risk) and what is the thinking in terms of technological advances and changes needed ahead - I'm sure we commentators here shouldn't need to concern ourselves too much about these endless possibilities at this stage when nothing like this is being mooted!

But pretty sure it's on the public record from last year (or 2015) that when Boeing was recently selected for the P-3K2 underwater surveillance systems upgrades that those systems would transfer into a future P-8 acquisition (as IIRC it's mainly the same systems anyway)?

I had been under the impression that there had been some additional upgrades done to Kiwi Orions sometime between 2000 and 2010 or so, in NZ and after they had been re-winged.

If there had additional comprehensive upgrades done after that which also involved installing kit now found in the P-8, that I would say, "sure, keep using it in new aircraft."

I would still be concerned about the feasibility of systems integration unless the manufacturer assumes responsibility (or has already done it).

 

[ngatimozart]

You seriously didn't know the Leanders carried Phalanx at the end of their careers?

And you don't need to confirm it because I just told you it happened. I watched them do it FFS.

Watch the attitude. No need to be snarky. We don't know who you are from a bar of soap so we tend to find confirmation for things that are unknown to us.

 

[beegee]

Watch the attitude. No need to be snarky. We don't know who you are from a bar of soap so we tend to find confirmation for things that are unknown to us.

I apologize for my snarky attitude.

Feel free to confirm, but I would never post anything that wasn't true.

 

[RegR]

Could it perhaps be more beneficial to try and sell the P3s (or even the ANZACs) as is as surely they would get more for a complete intergrated package that is already working rather than essentially a frame (50 year frame at that)? The difference between usable and scrap is in the features and options much the same as the usefullness of any new build platform. Someone could be more interested in the inside moreso than the outside and therefore pay accordingly.

Surely we can only make some equipment last so long anyway regardless of any upgrades and could be looked at as a good oppourtunity to gain the latest and greatest from the start and essentially reset the clock and start at the top vs somewhere in the middle depending on any mods or upgrades. A good example would be the phalanx as no doubt there are now better suited and more relevant options floating around nowadays.

 

[t68]

Sorry if this is a repost but I don't recall see this anywhere.
It seems ST Marine put out its latest variation of the Endurance 170 LHD, seems like the perfect fit as a Canterbury replacement. Not sure it needs a 76mm up the front but it cant hurt either.

IMDEX Asia 2017: ST Marine Unveiled the Endurance 170 LHD

 

[ngatimozart]

Sorry if this is a repost but I don't recall see this anywhere.
It seems ST Marine put out its latest variation of the Endurance 170 LHD, seems like the perfect fit as a Canterbury replacement. Not sure it needs a 76mm up the front but it cant hurt either.

IMDEX Asia 2017: ST Marine Unveiled the Endurance 170 LHD

Quite an interesting read and would meet NZ's requirements if / when we go down the LHD / LPD path.

The design features a well deck as well which can launch and recover four landing craft. Vehicle decks can receive 17 MBTs and 16 armored vehicles.

In terms of sensors and systems, Endurance 170 base configuration consists in a 76mm main gun, 4x 30mm secondary guns, 2x RAM launchers, 16x VLS for SAM, a fire control radar, a 3D surveillance radar, C-ESM and R-ESM sensors, two electro-optic sensors.

The Endurance 170 has a length of 170 meters, a breadth of 30.80 meters, a draft of 6.60 meters for a full load displacement of 19,000 tons. [It] features 4,200 square meters of helicopter deck and 5 helicopter spots on the flat deck. The hangar deck measuring 2,050 square meters can accommodate up to 10 medium size helicopters.

The ship crew complement is 140 sailors, the air crew 150 sailors and the vessel can accommodate 400 troops.

The design has a maximum speed of 20 knots, a range of 7000 nautical miles at 15 knots and an endurance of 30 days at sea.​

OPSSG has also posted about it here. I'd think about replacing the 30mm guns with 35mm Millennium guns. RAM I am unsure about but ATM I don't see the need for it. The 16 VLS for SAM would take Sea Ceptor and SM2 / SM6 missiles*. I'd also upgrade the 76mm gun to 127mm unless we got some Ocean Patrol Corvettes with 76mm guns. I'd also like it to have some RAS capabilities, giving it the ability to refuel and resupply other ships, much like RN carriers used to do. Finally SSM capabilities for 8 SSM in box launchers. Looks interesting though and worth giving some thought too.

*If we were to acquire the SM2 / SM6.

 

[old faithful]

Looks a good ship, but NZ would need some more choppers if they deployed with 5/NH90,s.
What are the plans for Canterbury? Are they looking to replace her already?
400 troops is really only a Company group +, could you push to 550 in overload?

 

[ngatimozart]

Looks a good ship, but NZ would need some more choppers if they deployed with 5/NH90,s.
What are the plans for Canterbury? Are they looking to replace her already?
400 troops is really only a Company group +, could you push to 550 in overload?

Yes the NH-90 helo numbers would need to be increased by at least two, preferably four, and I would look at acquiring three or four chooks as well.

The current plan is for Canterbury to be replaced in the 2030s but I would like to see the LHD procured during the near term with Canterbury being used in the amphib logistics role for troops on the beach and backing up the LHD. Canterbury at present can only take 250 troops so 400 is a better number. I would think that provision could be made for squeezing in an extra 150 troops if need be for a surge.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

Yes the NH-90 helo numbers would need to be increased by at least two, preferably four, and I would look at acquiring three or four chooks as well.

The current plan is for Canterbury to be replaced in the 2030s but I would like to see the LHD procured during the near term with Canterbury being used in the amphib logistics role for troops on the beach and backing up the LHD. Canterbury at present can only take 250 troops so 400 is a better number. I would think that provision could be made for squeezing in an extra 150 troops if need be for a surge.

Does anyone have a cost to purchase, run such a ship? Would be looking at $500 million,a billion or so initially to buy? Yeah I like the capability, but where would we get the funds for extra crew and helicopters,pilots? Doesn't what our RAN mates across the ditch, have that covered, with Lhd ships Canberra and Adelaide?

I think an endurance 140 be the realistic compromise, if govt wanted to build a proper navy replacement, and a few extra Nh90' though strangely no mention of the rumoured helicopter 'refresh' in the defence whitepaper, are we getting extra A109 or Nh90, or are they just upgrading the helicopters we have?

 

[ngatimozart]

Does anyone have a cost to purchase, run such a ship? Would be looking at $500 million,a billion or so initially to buy? Yeah I like the capability, but where would we get the funds for extra crew and helicopters,pilots? Doesn't what our RAN mates across the ditch, have that covered, with Lhd ships Canberra and Adelaide?

I think an endurance 140 be the realistic compromise, if govt wanted to build a proper navy replacement, and a few extra Nh90' though strangely no mention of the rumoured helicopter 'refresh' in the defence whitepaper, are we getting extra A109 or Nh90, or are they just upgrading the helicopters we have?

The cost maybe somewhere between NZ$500 - NZ$750 million depending on the fit out. It could be less. The Endurance Class LPD costs around NZ$270 million, however it's hangar capacity is only 2 medium cass helos. We would want four as a minimum and preferable six in line with Canterbury's hangarage capacity. As far As the helo refresh is concerned, all is quiet on that front.

 

[htbrst]

The budget for the Frigate upgrade has blown out by a further $148 Million:

RNZ Navy frigate upgrade overshoots budget by $148m

Which explains where the LOSC project went:

Money for the new contract will be taken from the provisional budget for a Littoral Operations Support Capability project.

"The trade off will mean that a contemporary, off-the-shelf commercial dive and hydrographic vessel will be procured, rather than a more advanced, specifically designed military vessel," he said.

So it really is a shame they did not go with the ASMD upgrade as per Australia - it's now comparable in price (if not slightly cheaper), has a better install base and would have made it easier to pick up one of the Australian ANZACs as they retire.

 

[t68]

Yes the NH-90 helo numbers would need to be increased by at least two, preferably four, and I would look at acquiring three or four chooks as well.

Agree 4 additional airframe's(NH-90) would be a welcome relief. also agree on CH-47 it would have immense value for a hardened JATF as well as the usual additional HADR capability most favoured by the greens

The current plan is for Canterbury to be replaced in the 2030s but I would like to see the LHD procured during the near term with Canterbury being used in the amphib logistics role for troops on the beach and backing up the LHD. Canterbury at present can only take 250 troops so 400 is a better number. I would think that provision could be made for squeezing in an extra 150 troops if need be for a surge.

Agree, would like to see an overlap happen but I suspect it can only happen if an increase to funding for the operational budget.

Ideally I'd like to see 2x Endurance 170 LHD in the NZ fleet but realistically even if the rotary fleet was increased as above its going to take a near max effort to fill out 2.

For that reason you should in theory be able to stow 6x NH-90 and a 2x CH-47, but more likely 5-2 or 6-1 that in theory will give you a single company minus lift which should be more than enough for NZ conops

As I said I don't see 2 large LHD but NZ does have a need for more than the singleton LHD, for this reason I'd like to see 2x ocean capable vessels to support the LHD, While the Endurance 140 seems like the most logical fit in terms of capability has a steel beach and able to stow another NH-90 or two and ideal Canterbury replacement in the strategic sealift role. I think the Damen LST120 could also cover a number of roles. It should be cheaper to acquire than the E140 and would be very useful in supporting the pacific island nation for which NZ have responsibility for.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

$639 million for just the LM portion of the upgrade!!!!!!!! What has been spent to date on the other components????

Would it not have been cheaper to have sold off the hulls at mid life and invest in new builds instead?

If $146 million has sunk a military grade replacement for the LOSC that is pretty lame. Of the millions of dollars that government spends in a year I am sure that additional funds could have been found to properly replace the capabilities. If this is the situation that embodies defence spending in NZ then the conversation on the Air Force thread should cease as there is no way in creation that NZ will ever get fast air back.

So typical of left leaning politicians. Spend millions on social programs and legalization of weed but be damned those that drop everything to come to the aid of NZ when the grey matter hits the rotary oscillator. Bloody farce.

 

[Rob c]

$639 million for just the LM portion of the upgrade!!!!!!!! What has been spent to date on the other components????

Would it not have been cheaper to have sold off the hulls at mid life and invest in new builds instead?

If $146 million has sunk a military grade replacement for the LOSC that is pretty lame. Of the millions of dollars that government spends in a year I am sure that additional funds could have been found to properly replace the capabilities. If this is the situation that embodies defence spending in NZ then the conversation on the Air Force thread should cease as there is no way in creation that NZ will ever get fast air back.

So typical of left leaning politicians. Spend millions on social programs and legalization of weed but be damned those that drop everything to come to the aid of NZ when the grey matter hits the rotary oscillator. Bloody farce.

The political situation is complicated and the new minister who is NZ first has some very strong views on the direction that defence should take. One must remember that basically NZ first could be described as a middle of the road conservative party As RM is constrained in regard to the total capital budget, (Labour was originally looking to cut it back) but allowed to maneuver within that budget, he would not allow extra money into projects that could take money away from his pet projects. He has always been a strong advocate for some form of ACF and would not want spending in other area's to scuttle his ability to fashion defence in the direction he would like it to move. It is early days at this time so it will be interesting to see the eventual outcome in the fullness of time. The question of an ACF,I don't think is dead at this time.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Rob

I can not find any info on the LOSC status. If a commercial option is truly being sought is there any rumblings locally of if or when this project will move to an acquisition?

IIRC the budget was in the $300 million range. A very capable commercial vessel can be acquired for this amount as many new or nearly new offshore supply types are available due to the downturn in oil exploration activities.

Hopefully a vessel can be acquired and fitted out asap.

 

[Joe Black]

But to be honest, it could have been a lot cheaper had the Kiwis gone with RAN's ASMD upgrade.

 

[swerve]

$639 million for just the LM portion of the upgrade!!!!!!!! What has been spent to date on the other components????....

I think that's the whole project, from the official statements. The other contractors go through LM Canada, the prime.

 

[Rob c]

Rob

I can not find any info on the LOSC status. If a commercial option is truly being sought is there any rumblings locally of if or when this project will move to an acquisition?

IIRC the budget was in the $300 million range. A very capable commercial vessel can be acquired for this amount as many new or nearly new offshore supply types are available due to the downturn in oil exploration activities.

Hopefully a vessel can be acquired and fitted out asap.

Sorry Nova but I only have seen the info that has been posted or linked here. I dont have any further info. I think that due to the election and following lolly scramble for power, that the LOSC has been pushed under the carpet.

 

[recce.k1]

Sorry Nova but I only have seen the info that has been posted or linked here. I dont have any further info. I think that due to the election and following lolly scramble for power, that the LOSC has been pushed under the carpet.

Actually some "good news" of sorts? This is from Ron Mark's press release:

This trade-off will mean that a contemporary, off-the-shelf commercial dive and hydrographic vessel will be procured, rather than a more advanced, specifically designed military vessel.

“While this is a trade-off in capability for Defence, this innovative response means that a dive and hydrographic vessel will be able to be delivered to the Defence Force sooner than the military-specification option,” Mr Mark said.

“It will be significantly more capable than HMNZS Manawanui and HMNZS Resolution, the two vessels it is replacing, particularly in regards to support to underwater search and recovery operations, and in capacity, speed, and versatility in response to domestic and regional natural disasters. This trade-off was made on the advice of Defence officials, as the most appropriate and manageable within the Defence portfolio.”