Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
With the recent decison by the RAN to acquire the heavy fuel S100 does this bode well for the NZDF to acquire this model? Is there any plans by the NZ Army to acquire similar capability so a cross DF purchase could be implimented to allow a larger fleet?

Has their been a trial of scan eagle by the DF or any other fixed wing RPAS?
 

Ocean1Curse

Member
It appears that HMS Clyde is a little bigger than her sisters. It has a flight deck large enough for a Merlin and troop carrying capacity for 110 for a short time. She also has a 30 mm cannon and is only 10 years old. Two are available and they would make welcome additions to the RNZN.

As to concerns about not replacing the ANZAC's do those here really think that this current government will have the legs to influence decisions twn years from now? I know this thia thread has been on the go for eleven years but i highky doubt this current government will last. The damage will be done the same as here in Canada under liberal rule. Its amazing to read the same issues that abound in our rsspective countries news media. Pot legalization. High home prices in urban centres. Increased minimum wage. Opposition to economic investment from NIMBYS. and little to no public interest in defence issues.
I wrote this reply to some one else. With a few tweaks and leave this here.

Well first off New Zealanders are in an almost impossible position, surrounded by vast ocean in between our major trading partners. Now we have to make a living around changing trade rulz that are determined to cut off Chinese expansion because America can't compete. New Zealand either make ourselves unusual or face economic ruin. Deciding how to differentiate ourselves means setting out to create a first world oasis on an island in the middle of the Southern Ocean. So we have to create a base for all development. To do that New Zealand must have good infrastructure which isn't difficult to do. What is more difficult is to have people behave like a first world people.

When you move people from a technologically scarce society with barley a ship to her name to a first world trading nation with ships of our own getting them to stop brining old philosophies out with them prevents all this. But we must succeed in progressing education, entertainment, leadership. The kids need to behave in a first world way. By stop behaving in a hap hazard way. Or they will face ruin. The children must give us tremendous motivation to try and deliver on improvements to the prospects of future generations.

The most difficult thing to do is to carry out industrialisation of services needed to carry out in the middle of the Southern Ocean. Because once you pollute the land then you destroy it, and destroy the living conditions. And when you destroy the living conditions then it's not worth having this place. So every project that New Zealand puts up, the first concern must be anti-pollution. And the economics of it is a huge price to pay, there is an enormous row. Interested parties are trying to bargain with our future prospects. But our future prospects does not have the philosophical integrity to recognise the position New Zealand is in was once a position held during the lead up to WW2.

Now we must convince every one of the merits of continuing the policies that our Grandfathers fought for. So carful attention to the environment at the same time looking to industry, growth and population challenges for away out is how New Zealanders will achieve our potential.
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
Ocean1curse the ability to live in a modern world can be accomplished with concern for the environment. All thats required is accountability Of both industry and government. The problem is both will always look for ways to maximise profit and acceptance.

Globalization is killing the western world.

Its killed industry where I live.

i agree with your comments about NZ being threatened by globalization. It is the biggest threat that exists because militarily the west will always come to your country and mine in times of tension or aggression.

In order to protect the SLOC NZDF needs the resources to ensure trade. Ngatis term sea blindness is so so true and so greatly under appreciated by citizens and government.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
They may try and virtue signal that but they would fail Rob. They are not in any sort of position to dictate defence policy even within the current coalition and it is a moot point whether they will survive the next election in 2020 on just 6% and likely to get electoral slippage as incumbents that may place them under the 5% MMP threshold.
Yep I'll pray for that to happen, here's hoping.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I wrote this reply to some one else. With a few tweaks and leave this here.

Well first off New Zealanders are in an almost impossible position, surrounded by vast ocean in between our major trading partners. Now we have to make a living around changing trade rulz that are determined to cut off Chinese expansion because America can't compete. New Zealand either make ourselves unusual or face economic ruin. Deciding how to differentiate ourselves means setting out to create a first world oasis on an island in the middle of the Southern Ocean. So we have to create a base for all development. To do that New Zealand must have good infrastructure which isn't difficult to do. What is more difficult is to have people behave like a first world people.

When you move people from a technologically scarce society with barley a ship to her name to a first world trading nation with ships of our own getting them to stop brining old philosophies out with them prevents all this. But we must succeed in progressing education, entertainment, leadership. The kids need to behave in a first world way. By stop behaving in a hap hazard way. Or they will face ruin. The children must give us tremendous motivation to try and deliver on improvements to the prospects of future generations.

The most difficult thing to do is to carry out industrialisation of services needed to carry out in the middle of the Southern Ocean. Because once you pollute the land then you destroy it, and destroy the living conditions. And when you destroy the living conditions then it's not worth having this place. So every project that New Zealand puts up, the first concern must be anti-pollution. And the economics of it is a huge price to pay, there is an enormous row. Interested parties are trying to bargain with our future prospects. But our future prospects does not have the philosophical integrity to recognise the position New Zealand is in was once a position held during the lead up to WW2.

Now we must convince every one of the merits of continuing the policies that our Grandfathers fought for. So carful attention to the environment at the same time looking to industry, growth and population challenges for away out is how New Zealanders will achieve our potential.
While I agree with most of what you say, I hardly think our grandfathers and forebears thought to much about the environment. they destroyed huge area's of native forest including the species in them and often simply burnt out the remainder. they introduced animal species which are now major pest, mined areas that nowadays would be considered of high natural value stripped hill sides bare so they eroded into the rivers, filling them with silt. When I was young there was still this behaviour going on and I saw some of it happening. the main reason they did not do more damage was there wasn't a enough of them. But they made this country what it is today and cannot be blamed for the damage as they simply didn't know any different. On the bright side a recent news article stated that "Tech" was now our third largest export earner after tourism and dairy and it is a lot less polluting than a lot of other industries.
 

Ocean1Curse

Member
Hi RobC.

Well first off capitalism is dead for all practice purposes. Which is a kind of abstract statement. In terms of Keynesian short term thinking all capitalism was used for is to say capitalism is better than communism and bash unions with. There fore transforming democratic societies into profit for shareholders. So let's be a bit more concrete. South Canterbury Finance Ltd was once New Zealand's 10th largest finance company. I'm quoting there Wikipedia page here. "On 7 December 2011, the Serious Fraud Office laid 21 charges against five individuals in respect of South Canterbury Finance. The charges relate to a variety of allegedly fraudulent transactions which have a total estimated value of approximately $1.7 billion. This includes an estimated $1.58 billion from the Crown Retail Deposits Guarantee Scheme.[17]" So South Canterbury finance was allowed to continue its fraudulent ways with crown funds. That's just a ridiculous way of making money. Alternatively the Crown could have bailed out the investor/shareholders directly. Instead of overwhelmingly bailing out creditors. But that's a different story.

As for Marx notions of long term planning neither Marx nor Keynes could have predicted the Poles melting so fast. Quite simply there is no capitalist price mechanism that can signal the poles are melting to the markets while government bail outs exist. Then we can argue about Marx's theories of the labour force and AI and automation puts a major dent in the whole notion of workers share of capital.

And these are serious problems capitalist economies are in crises about how to deal with. So capitalism has never been faced with a shrinking work force due to automation. When labour is no longer needed in the production of capital that is a huge problem for capitalism and democracy hasn't faced before.

Now I'm not talking about a total collapse. What I'm talking about are huge fissures in New Zealand's economy and the Global economy that decision makers do recognise but because of the scale and nature of the problems, just far to many can't identify the problem let alone understand the scale of it. And a lot of it are short term values where shareholders have to make as much profit as possible. So managers are incentivised to maximise profit over everything else. And this push for short term profit really only came to the fore in the 80's by Melton Freedmen, Thatcher, and Regan. Effectively dissolving the social contract our fore fathers work hard to create create. Now the next iteration of capitalism, Neoliberalism, and the reason this has been survivable up to this point is because no one has asked, is this all sustainable on a finite planet and can you have a price system that says the polls are melting. According to Trump and the Washington consensus that's a no. There fore Antartica doesn't melt in American minds. And this is what short termism is really butting up against. And that's what we are facing.

On a personal level I like to travel abroad and tick everything up on my credit, but when I go to repay the debt my little economy goes down abit. Now you multiply that by the number of workers and that has a deleterious effect on the environment so harmful to the prospects of future generations. So we are looking at the level of flows here. If the flows are sustainable then no problem. So there is debt servicing and the over all accumulation of debt and when you put the too together and ask is this sustainable and the answer is no! And it applies to government budgets as well (just not on the spending side because governments can bail out, ect.) similarly you can look at the flow of global warming, carbon and so on. And say if you add it to what's already there then it's not sustainable and this is were the short term thinking is unable to deal with this and you get unexpected shocks to the economy.

So if we had a goal or a target to aim for, I think the Brits experience in over coming WW2 have some valuable principals other countries can pick and choose from. But Basically the Brits spent a lot of money clawing there way out of the Bomb shelters, essentially. And it didn't mater how much was spent because every one was far to busy working. And this is the problem. We've lost our goal and it's a lot of what we all talk about. We only have to look at NZDF deployments to understand that we've lost our political goals or objectives. And it's true for governments, companies and individuals. It's something that's brought up as a huge national focus, but we keep losing focus. Far from political discourse harnessing the will to over come adversities we bitch about who gets to eat and who gets to serve. But we are waiting to see what kind of impending catastrophe emerges to get governments to act. So the expending environmental collapse should give us hope that it can rally supporters around it and focus our attention on achievable goals.

Far to often military funding looks at the bottom line instead of what's actually achievable. Along with mass production and AI eliminating a lot of the jobs that eliminate short term output then your not looking at the bottom line at all your kind of destroying short term outputs. As for peaceful transitions humans have never transitioned peacefully, ever. And I don't think automated transformation will be peaceful either and this is partly the classic article by Nick Hauner "The Pitchfork are Coming." And none of this is an argument of merit it's simply an argument to own stuff for the sake of it.

So the whole argument about governments just moving around and NZDF not having a goal, or at least being hooked onto Americas wars with no over all strategy for political objectives, just pales in comparison to our changing environment.

We should make it clear that people want to collaborate. And collaborate in ways that were never possible before. And infact people want to collaborate and do useful things which is something pro capitalists forces attempt to obscure.

I agree that New Zealand has a right to defend itself. And correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that's what international law says (Might be in the UN charter as well) so in general in international law no country has a right to defend it's self by force unless that country exhaust peaceful means. I don't see it as a means to get involved all the time just because NZDF couldn't get involved in Iraq 2003. Actually it shouldn't need saying that the U.S routinely organises military coups. As long as the U.S is involved wide spread public support for defence in New Zealand just isn't going to happen.

But this doesn't mean NZDF won't get involved. Because we get involved whether through 5EYES or the U.N. But our days of acting on the front lines are surly over. At least for the medium term. And this is in the back drop of the failure of capitalism and the need for stronger independent militaries all through ASEAN and Oceania. And well they won't stay strong for ever. (Just a guess here) but Australia probably had the force to brake a blockade in there region back in the 70's. A lot of that had to do with ASEAN having weaker militaries. Not true today. But it's taken a lot of effort on every ones part to chill relations to where it is today. Mean while every one has been building up there militaries pretty openly. And at the same time The ADF has declined a bit, they've learnt a lot but they to have had procurement issues, and probably have addressed those issues. This stuff doesn't happen over night. It happens for a reason. Because like New Zealand, Australia are very strict on immigration.

Now I don't have my hands on immigration controls. But I probably wouldn't let to many in myself. I was just a boy when the 2 millionth Kiwi was called out over the radio. I never thought we would come so close to 5 million population so soon. So we had to import an extra million or two million workers to keep up with employment demands. Now we must live with in those limits. But that is dangerous because foreigners see our lifestyles and they want to come to New Zealand. Far better they come with commerce than with the sword. And this is important.

Indonesia had a flare up with ISIS recently which is an odd development because Indonesia has the largest Muslim population in the world and they've been OK I guess for decades. But when you listen to some of the 18th century accounts of Muslim traders coming to Indonesia to trade spices and other things (maybe slaves) there homelands were relatively peaceful so there wasn't this huge push for Middle East oil. So they came to Indonesia in droves, brought there culture to open arms. Now that the Middle East is embroiled in western hegemony over oil and all the military "aid" that goes with it. The Middle East is a god dam turkey shoot. It's civil war over there and getting worse. I mean what ever the Saudis think they're up to with former Lebanese Prime Minister Saad Hariri is scandalous - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/10/world/middleeast/saudi-arabia-lebanon-france-macron.html - and every one is just standing around puzzled about what to do. What I can't figure out is if the rise of Trump has some thing to do with all this or it's always been there in the background just nobody reported on it. But seeing as Trump actively avoids the media. Guess MSM has nothing better to do. But it is the reactions of citizens to invite immigrants with open arms that started the huge growth in Indonesian Muslim population. If they hadn't been invited with open arms Indonesia surly wouldn't be 87.2% Muslim. So it is the way immigrants are treated on arrival that determinants how radicalised migrants become. None of these guys facing pretty desperate living conditions in there place of origin want to face losing there chance at a spot in a first world country. Things are happening fast. Faster than any one can react. And NZDF is woefully under prepared and underfunded to even deal with even the tiniest bit of all this.

Now the only course of action right now is for The Minister of Defence RM to work with in the frame work of NZFirst Defence and Veterans Affairs Policy that probably got him the job in the first place. But most importantly if things start to come off the wheels then then us here at DT need to make that clear.
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
That has to be one of the longest responses i have ever read on DT. So very true what you have said and it applies here in Canada.

In my remaining lifetime I predict that the brown matter will hit the rotary oscilator and north america will become an insular economy. The same is likely for Australia and New Zealand. Until that happens our economies as we have known them for the last 60 years will continue to decline.

A strong navy and a fleet of high end MPA will help to ensure NZ trade.

I hope this government and successive governments make the realization that those here have.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Holy crap O1C you really got a load of your chest there. I have only skimmed through it at this stage but I will make a couple of comments. I
I don't believe that either socialism nor capitalism are perfect by a long shot and something new is needed, but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater until we have found it.
On people wanting to collaborate I lived in my youth in a small country community that did not even have power ( we got that marvel when I was 11) I would have seen more collaboration on a daily basis there than I would see in a month or even a year now. If you want collaboration get on and do it and stop just talking about it, just start.
Debt. I have spent my adult life avoiding debt like a plague on the basis that every dollar of interest you spend is a dollar you cannot use on yourself and you are just letting some rip off company get richer at your expense. Did have a mortgage for the first house though, not for the next four.
Will take time to digest the rest.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Hi RobC.

Well first off capitalism is dead for all practice purposes. Which is a kind of abstract statement. In terms of Keynesian short term thinking all capitalism was used for is to say capitalism is better than communism and bash unions with. There fore transforming democratic societies into profit for shareholders. So let's be a bit more concrete. South Canterbury Finance Ltd was once New Zealand's 10th largest finance company. I'm quoting there Wikipedia page here. "On 7 December 2011, the Serious Fraud Office laid 21 charges against five individuals in respect of South Canterbury Finance. The charges relate to a variety of allegedly fraudulent transactions which have a total estimated value of approximately $1.7 billion. This includes an estimated $1.58 billion from the Crown Retail Deposits Guarantee Scheme.[17]" So South Canterbury finance was allowed to continue its fraudulent ways with crown funds. That's just a ridiculous way of making money. Alternatively the Crown could have bailed out the investor/shareholders directly. Instead of overwhelmingly bailing out creditors. But that's a different story. ...
This is verging upon politics and politics should be avoided because that will incur the pain of the Moderators wrath. 2nd point is while it maybe a treatise upon political theory, it has little relevance to the topic of the RNZN.
 

Ocean1Curse

Member
This is verging upon politics and politics should be avoided because that will incur the pain of the Moderators wrath. 2nd point is while it maybe a treatise upon political theory, it has little relevance to the topic of the RNZN.
Duly noted and apologies. Won't happen again.
 

htbrst

Active Member
A nice article about the decommissioning of the Endeavour:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/99424940/beautiful-navy-ship-sails-into-retirement

Ship captain Commander Mark Doolan said the Endeavour has travelled more than 1.6 million kilometres, making more than 1000 ship-to-ship refuels over its career. But the refuelling equipment has now been stripped out
The ship itself will leave Devonport in March, sold for scrap, or as Plant puts it "be turned into razor blades".

Endeavour's brand new replacement, $500m HMNZS Aotearoa, is expected to be delivered in 2020.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Does that mean that refuelling equipment will be installed on Aotearoa, like stripped parts were transferred from the old leanders to the Anzac frigates?
I don't think so and as far as I am aware nothing was pulled through from the Leanders to the ANZAC class.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The mk32 torpedo launchers and the phalanx CWIS were taken from the leanders and put on the ANZACs.
The RNZN Leander-class FF had Mk 32 LWT launchers, but no Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS. I have not been able to confirm one way or another whether or not the Mk 32 LWT were reused or not.

In the grand scheme of things, up to four recovered triple-mount LWT launchers weighing in at ~1,000 kg unloaded does not amount to much.
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The RNZN Leander-class FF had Mk 32 LWT launchers, but no Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS. I have not been able to confirm one way or another whether or not the Mk 32 LWT were reused or not.

In the grand scheme of things, up to four recovered triple-mount LWT launchers weighing in at ~1,000 kg unloaded does not amount to much.
F-69 HMNZS Wellington carried mk 15 CIWS at the end of her career that would be the only thing that was transferred from Leanders to ANZACS but like you have pointed out a 1000kg don't amount to anything.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
F-69 HMNZS Wellington carried mk 15 CIWS at the end of her career that would be the only thing that was transferred from Leanders to ANZACS but like you have pointed out a 1000kg don't amount to anything.
Both HMNZS Canterbury F421 and HMNZS Wellington carried the phalanx CIWS in the 1990's. these mounts being transferred to the ANZAC's on their completion
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Both HMNZS Canterbury F421 and HMNZS Wellington carried the phalanx CIWS in the 1990's. these mounts being transferred to the ANZAC's on their completion
Thanks for that guys, I thought they had some equipment transferred. Given the recent and on going upgrades to the Anzacs,id imagine ciws and 5 inch, typhoon and sea ceptor would be reused too,to save costs?

For that matter, could P3 be cannibilized for parts that could be reused in another Mpa, in addition to new P8 or P1?

20 Billion Capex now threatened by Labour so it seems, so typical of Labour, I figured they had promised to much ,if anything it's thier budgeting that's at fault not Nationals, and they see defence as an easy source of funds that few will complain about cutting.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Thanks for that guys, I thought they had some equipment transferred. Given the recent and on going upgrades to the Anzacs,id imagine ciws and 5 inch, typhoon and sea ceptor would be reused too,to save costs?

For that matter, could P3 be cannibilized for parts that could be reused in another Mpa, in addition to new P8 or P1?

20 Billion Capex now threatened by Labour so it seems, so typical of Labour, I figured they had promised to much ,if anything it's thier budgeting that's at fault not Nationals, and they see defence as an easy source of funds that few will complain about cutting.
With respect to pulling things through from the ANZAC-class FFH's to their replacements, while it seems a reasonable idea it really is too soon to tell.

Until more is known about what capabilities are required/desired in the replacements... A 5"/127 mm gun sounds like a good idea, but the RNZN (or gov't for that matter) might opt for a 76 mm or even 57 mm main gun. The CAMM ER might be in service or nearly so, which could replace Sea Ceptor. OTOH the RNZN/gov't might decide that a larger and more capable air defence missile is needed and go with ESSM Block II, SM-3 or SM-6, or Aster-30. The Mk 15 Phalanx and Typhoon IMO are of declining utility at present and likely of much less value in the future.

As for re-using any P-3K2 systems in a possible 2nd tier MPA that too is very hard to say. As I understand it, portions of the Kiwi Orion avionics were upgraded locally using COTS-sourced systems which were then modified for purpose. Where it starts getting woolly whether or not the entire P-3K2 Orion avionics suites could 'just' be installed into new aircraft, or whether only portions of the avionics would be useful in a new MPA. If it is the 2nd option, then it would become a question of what is cheaper, easier, and/or more effective in terms of installation and systems integration? I suspect that new aircraft would be better off having a 'clean' install of kit sourced and integrated by the manufacturer. That is if NZ even gets a 2nd tier MPA, which is questionable at present.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
As for re-using any P-3K2 systems in a possible 2nd tier MPA that too is very hard to say. As I understand it, portions of the Kiwi Orion avionics were upgraded locally using COTS-sourced systems which were then modified for purpose.
Hi Tod, those local COTS-sourced systems (from the '80's/'90's IIRC) and everything else installed prior, would have have been binned when L-3 undertook the comprehensive systems upgrades from the mid-2000's to the mid-2010's, which involved stripping out all pre-existing equipment and wiring etc.

Eg from RNZAF news a new glass-cockpit was installed and "the Tactical Rail (Tacrail) has been completely refitted with modern sensors, communication and data management systems" and from "Timing is Everything" pages 122-123 talks about the Surveillance Radar, Electronic Surveillance Measures (ESM), Electro-optics systems and Acoustics processors chosen etc.

Where it starts getting woolly whether or not the entire P-3K2 Orion avionics suites could 'just' be installed into new aircraft, or whether only portions of the avionics would be useful in a new MPA. If it is the 2nd option, then it would become a question of what is cheaper, easier, and/or more effective in terms of installation and systems integration? I suspect that new aircraft would be better off having a 'clean' install of kit sourced and integrated by the manufacturer. That is if NZ even gets a 2nd tier MPA, which is questionable at present.
Fully agree, this would be the tricky part depending on what the replacement aircraft is, what systems that aircraft was originally designed for, what systems would need to be integrated if undertaking an orphan upgrade (and at the customers expense and risk) and what is the thinking in terms of technological advances and changes needed ahead - I'm sure we commentators here shouldn't need to concern ourselves too much about these endless possibilities at this stage when nothing like this is being mooted!

But pretty sure it's on the public record from last year (or 2015) that when Boeing was recently selected for the P-3K2 underwater surveillance systems upgrades that those systems would transfer into a future P-8 acquisition (as IIRC it's mainly the same systems anyway)?
 
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