Not in full service yet, Expected in 2025, for those ships with up dated Aegis system required to operate the block 2 The CAMM does not need such extensive systems to be fully effective.
Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter Padman
- Start date
Note the product sheet states
"In December 2021, the Navy declared ESSM Block 2 initial operational capability for Aegis platforms"
This does not mean only AEGIS platforms can fire this missile. The ANZAC is intended to field this weapon using the SAAB 9LV syetem. Essentially, it would be the same as CAAM/ER for RNZN ships with the missile able to be used on these vesssel becauses of the systems fitted as part of the upgrade.
CAAM-ER is, like ESSM Block II, still completing development testing.
In summary, both good missiles and both readily deployable once trials are completed.
Just to add with Block II ESSM gains the ability to target without illumination from the host ships radar, block II has its own active radar.
This makes ESSM and CAMM more capability similar. CAMM still has its cold launch and a smaller, shorter range missile, CAMM-ER and ESSM would be very similar capability missiles. They are still quite diverse, each with its own preferred engagement characteristics, they aren't really competitors.
- ESSM is ~3.66m x 254mm and 280kg.
- CAMM is 100kg 3.2m 166mm.
- CAMM-ER is 166kg 4.2m 190mm.
CEAFAR and 9LV is very capable with ESSM, as its radar does a great job illuminating targets, but with ESSM blk II, they would be able to hit targets even if they move out of illumination range. ESSM has a fair bit longer range, so for ESSM that self seeker is quite a nice capability. Say in the green water zones where ships could move behind islands etc.
But CAMMs cold launch and smaller size is always going to be advantageous on small ships. I get why NZ was interested in it, NZ is likely to operate smaller ships than say, the USN.
But neither ESSM nor CAMM are ideal for what is required in the red sea US lead missions. Both would do a great job if missiles were fired at the ship carrying them, but the mission currently is protect commercial ships and land sites from being hit so you need a much longer range missile and very powerful long range radar. But with more ships in the area, perhaps ESSM or CAMM would be more viable.
The Saudis are using CAMM on an Aegis(kinda Combatss-21 which is simular to the CMS-330 in the NZ anzac) LCS based platform. Because on something LCS sized, that is probably a nicer fit than ESSM. But interestingly the Saudi corvettes (Navantia) use ESSM. *shugs* Why not have both!
The Saudi corvettes do not use ESSM, they use VL Mica. ESSM was not approved for export to Saudi Arabia which is why they had to switch to European SAMs.
Navantia Delivers 3rd Avante 2200 Corvette to Saudi Arabia - Naval News
Spanish shipbuilder Navantia delivered the third of five Avante 2200 corvettes, "Hail", to the Royal Saudi Naval Force (RSNF).
www.navalnews.com
Last edited:
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
After years of building up its navy, Saudi Arabia is testing its new warships with real-world missions (yahoo.com)
Freedom-class littoral combat ship - Wikipedia
The Americans are building the Saudis 4 Frigates based on the Freedom class LCS for the national defence radar picket role, they are to be fitted with Spy-1F and Aegis and the Mk 41 VLS for the SM-2 and ESSM. The Mica system is a CIWS and not really suitable for this role.
You will probably find that it was more about the US not allowing the Mk 41/ESSM being fitted to French built ships in a French yard, than an outright rejection of the Saudis.
Freedom-class littoral combat ship - Wikipedia
The Americans are building the Saudis 4 Frigates based on the Freedom class LCS for the national defence radar picket role, they are to be fitted with Spy-1F and Aegis and the Mk 41 VLS for the SM-2 and ESSM. The Mica system is a CIWS and not really suitable for this role.
You will probably find that it was more about the US not allowing the Mk 41/ESSM being fitted to French built ships in a French yard, than an outright rejection of the Saudis.
My understanding is that CAMM-ER is fully operational. It has already been deployed as part of the Albatros NG system aboard the Pakistani frigate PNS Babur. Pic via X.
You are indeed right, and again, I should not base capability based on Wikipedia entries (for the class its still listed as ESSM, but the individual ships are VLMica on Wikipedia). I wasn't aware of the Saudis being blocked.
VL Mica sits at the smaller edge, more similar to CAMM at ~110 kg, 3.1m x 160mm. Mica has active radar or IR seeker. So I wonder if they will keep both in use when the get CAMM on the LCS based ships. Being the Saudis, probably as they seem to have stock of ~250 missiles. But the Saudis are interested in making CAMM locally.
CAMM/ESSM can quad pack, but afaik Mica cannot. Mica was very sexy before CAMM and block II ESSM.
It used to be radar, combat system and missile were all closely integrated and effectively only compatible with that specific set. These days, things are more open architecture and missiles have their own seekers which makes them much easier to integrate.
I suggest you read the wikipedia article again. It clearly states:
Here is a FAR more reliable source than wikipedia:
New developments for Saudi MMSC programme - EDR Magazine
The Royal Saudi Naval Force’s MMSC programme - the ”Twaiq Project” - managed by Lockheed Martin, is progressing according to schedule. EDR On-Line reports.
www.edrmagazine.eu
They will use CAMM fired from the Mk41.
MBDA Inc. Wins NAVSEA Contract to Supply CAMM to Royal Saudi Navy’s MMSC - MBDA Inc.
On 31 January 2023, MBDA Incorporated, the US arm of MBDA, was awarded a Foreign Military Sales contract worth $118,673,894 (USD) by the Naval Sea Systems Command (NAVSEA). MBDA will be supporting the US Navy’s Multi-Mission Surface Combatant ships with the Sea Ceptor air defense system and...
mbdainc.com
Last edited:
That’s why wiki articles are not authoritative.I suggest you read the wikipedia article again. It clearly states:
Here is a FAR more reliable source than wikipedia:
New developments for Saudi MMSC programme - EDR Magazine
The Royal Saudi Naval Force’s MMSC programme - the ”Twaiq Project” - managed by Lockheed Martin, is progressing according to schedule. EDR On-Line reports.
They will use CAMM fired from the Mk41.
MBDA Inc. Wins NAVSEA Contract to Supply CAMM to Royal Saudi Navy’s MMSC - MBDA Inc.
On 31 January 2023, MBDA Incorporated, the US arm of MBDA, was awarded a Foreign Military Sales contract worth $118,673,894 (USD) by the Naval Sea Systems Command (NAVSEA). MBDA will be supporting the US Navy’s Multi-Mission Surface Combatant ships with the Sea Ceptor air defense system and...
AEGIS is not a radar. It’s a combat system.
You can’t choose a Thales “4D radar” instead of AEGIS, but you could instead of SPY-1, SPY-6, SPY-7 and so on…
Wikipedia sucks. It's badly worded, they meant the TRS-4D replaced the SPY-1 once Aegis was dropped. TRS-4D is a Hensoldt radar, not Thales, just FYI.
It's also where the confusion around ESSM comes from. Saudi Arabia originally wanted ESSM on their corvettes and MMSC. But when they were blocked and changed missiles, unless someone updates the wikipedia articles that misleading info just sits out there.
Last edited:
MBDA’s Air Defence Missile CAMM-ER Successfully Completes Major Milestone - Naval News
From MBDA's release the system (Albatros NG) and missile is planned to be in service in 2024. When in 2024 is not provided ESSM Block II is undergoing operational test and evaluations firings with intial rounds issued to the fleet in 2021. The last DOT&E report was in 2022 which noted the initial operational testing and evaluation should have been completed in 2023. Again there is no definative information on where phase 2 is at.
2022 Annual Report (osd.mil)
Anyway .... we are a bit off topic so back to RNZN related issues.
But that press release is from June 2021. It could be in service now, or delayed until 2025.
You could update it.
The latest version of VL Mica is supposed to have an effective range of about 40km, which is a bit more than a CIWS, & even the old VL Mica is claimed to be effectve out to 20 km (though less so than closer in).
Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
Totally changing the subject because the CAMM vs ESSM is a dead horse both have advantages and both have disadvatages... so onto a new subject
Sailor dismissed from navy after strangling comrades, making racist comments
Sailor dismissed from navy after strangling comrades, making racist comments
Only 4 months in SCE @Burnham? Should be a lot more than that. Pity it's no longer the same regime as Ardmore was. I avoided a holiday in Ardmore by the skin of my teeth.Totally changing the subject because the CAMM vs ESSM is a dead horse both have advantages and both have disadvatages... so onto a new subject
Sailor dismissed from navy after strangling comrades, making racist comments
CJohn
Active Member
An interview with Defence News and Chief of Navy Admiral David Proctor covering future fleet capabilities, response to the RFI, recruitment and uncrewed systems moving forward.
:quality(70)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/archetype/3HH23VLUYZEKZLSKNY5HCYWDLU.jpg)
www.defensenews.com
New Zealand naval chief talks future fleet, unmanned tech
The service has had difficulty operating all of its maritime platforms amid recruiting and retention woes.
www.defensenews.com
Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
Yeah I was surprised with that it was only 4 months...
Last edited:
Looking at this piece in NavalNews, what is likelihood that Canterbury could follow the IPV's and find herself back in the place of her forebears in the Irish Sea?
Irish Naval Service Plans €300 Million Support Ship Buy - Naval News
Irish Naval Service Plans €300 Million Support Ship Buy - Naval News
With a budget like that not that likely. Originally I thought the CY would be a good fit (for them) and we could sell Canterbury to then fund the new sealift ship (I seriously cannot see us getting 2 as mooted awhile back for a number of reasons) but I see Ireland wants a purpose built new build with all the trimmings. Sure I read somewhere they want a tanking option so sounds like a cross between a tanker/sealift ship with true multi role capabilities, probably hence the price increase.
The funding envisaged is almost double what we paid for CY new!
that was some time ago and the dollar against the euro it is getting close to almost 4 times the amount, not quite but close